he'd have easily made it to any revered historical Brazilian NT, and would do just fine. He does not come short in any category as far as technique and leadership goes. Santana would have easily picked him up in 82. Gif of Neymar chip goal vs Uruguay
in retrospect here's a hypothetical scenario for you to opine on. If Neymar wasn't injured would Germany still have beaten Selecao by a margin of 7-1 back in '14 and would Brazil perhaps have had a chance to either draw or even win it? @celito @giles varley @Guigs @leadleader
If Neymar and Thiago Silva played, I believe we still lose but not as badly as 7-1. Maybe 2-1 or 3-2.
We still would have lost. Perhaps not as badly . Neymar wasn't really that influential on the previous 2 games.
For sure Neymar is better than eder i agree, that is not what i meant at all- i meant that if neymar was in the 1982 squad and i had to replace one player in the first eleven then i would put him in place of serginho not eder.. even if neymar is not a centre forward i would play him as a false 9 in that team... No eder was not in the class of the players you mention but he was a more than decent player and in great form at the time of the 1982 world cup..
And there are many more moments like these - I 've recently watched the brazil 1970 world cup games again - obviously there are moments of magic but that is the worst defence to ever win a tournament. If you watch the full games its actually quite shocking how poor brazil were at times.. bad control, bad passes and some of the worst shooting you will ever see.. there isnt much joga bonito to be seen thats for sure..
Yeah ! But He's got along way to go to be as bad as some of the brazilian shooting from 1970 .. i watched brazil vs england 1970 and one of rivelino's shots cleared the stadium !
Hahahaha. That video should have a lot more views. But yeah, that video summarizes perhaps the biggest reason why I don't comment much on 1970s football - it's not necessarily that I doubt Pele's ability to adapt to modern football, it's the fact that Brazil 1970 being regarded as a better team than Brazil 2002, is self-evidently false as soon as anybody watches the complete games. As great as Pele would still be today if you time-traveled to the past and transported Pele to this time-line, there's no doubt that teams of the 1970s were tactically inferior. Anyways, how much of those off-target shots, can be legitimately excused on the basis of heavy balls and bad boots?
Only a coupled of free kicks of those were Pele's and then the miss under the goal which has happened to many great players. Seen many great players take some pretty bad free kicks. As for 1970 WC in general, I think most people take that as a representation of how football was then (game speed). They were played in some pretty harsh conditions and I think most teams were not really well prepared.
That's true, the 1970 WC was slower than football was in general, probably Mexico's altitude is a big factor in that. As for Pele - I was not commenting on Pele's own mistakes, I was commenting on the tactics of the time, and the preparation of the time. I have a hard time comparing that era with the modern era, mainly because of all the tactical differences. In the 1990s, mistakes of that nature were not normal not even with Venezuela's national team, let alone with Brazil's national team - that makes comparisons with the modern era a significantly easier task. To be clear: when I speak about "mistakes of that nature" - I mean indefensible defensive mistakes (such as the several ones in the video), I do not mean bad free kicks and bad shots (which continues to happen today).
That's an impossible exercise as the game as you say has changed a lot. But some individual skills are more or less timeless.
The adidas telstar ball in 1970 was supposed to be quite light from what i've read.. i dont think rivelino would have been able to hit row Z as he did with a real heavy ball !
Well in that case, Rivelino is used to hitting a heavier ball, and then for 7 games he has to play with a much lighter ball... I think that's a legitimate problem/excuse, to be fair. In any case, I don't pay that much attention to off-target shots and off-target free kicks, and one of the many reasons why is because Cristiano Ronaldo, an average FK specialist at best, has been one of the Top 2 players in the world for the past 3-4 years. Basically, doing a mess out of a good free kick, or a good open-play chance, is something that continues to frequently happen to this day. However, what I find difficult to defend, is the non-forced defensive mistakes that Brazil 1970 made in that video. You just don't consistently see mistakes like that in the 1990s nor in the 2000s nor in the 2010s. NOTE: Watching the Brazil 1970 video, I couldn't help but think of Cristiano Ronaldo's mastery at free kicks. I'm not even trying to make a joke at the expense of Ronaldo - he just objectively has been an average or below-average FK taker over the past 3-4 years. His free-kicks either hit the wall or hit the fans.
Nostalgia is indeed a powerful force. I got nothing against the oldies, but personally, I can't even these older games because they're jut not fun to me. I've had a chance to watch games from 1970 and 1974 World Cup, and they're just not very fun games to watch. The game was so obviously tactically undeveloped.
You are not the only one in that camp mate. I too have not watched much of the oldies due for the clear relatively weaker tactics in the old school defences of that time and in particular due to the low quality of the camera projection and editing technology of the old days. The latter factor plays a major role why I can't be bothered watching full matches showing the action at great distance away from pitch when you can hardly even see the ball on screen when watching the 60's! Also, I am sure that the overwhelming majority of non-contemporary fans who pass judgement on rankings/ratings of historical players and the game haven't seen much of what they're judging on any ways. Let's be honest, why should we take historical rankings and ratings of individual players by non-contemporary fans seriously when the driving force behind their opinion is mainly based on anecdotal accounts and cultural/political motives The prevailing rankings, which often includes the usual suspects at the top are well guarded by follow-the-crowd mentality who have seldom revised them players in a honest and consistent fashion. Like @leadleader I too do not try to belittle Pele nor down-talk his reputation, honestly, but all I am implying here is that the crowd has clearly been proven to be lazy when judging historical players/games they clearly have not studied with honesty and dedication. The video posted by @giles varley above proves once more that we do have a lot of homework to do if we want to be taken seriously. Legends are not born but made. Often by propaganda! Poor Neymar has a high wall of standards to climb in order to be taken seriously. A wall (benchmark) set high by a Pele and his oldies in a time these clearing-the stadium-shots and inexcusable defence tactics as shown in the video above went by unnoticed to the audience.
@giles varley in your opinion out of NT70 and NT82 which of the two do you say was the more complete and therefore better side? NT70 has been widely heralded as the greatest team in WC history, but after watching your video above I am questioning this consensus. What do you say? @leadleader @celito @poetgooner
For better or worse, that's how it will always work. Over the past 6-8 years both Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo have been overrated, particularly Ronaldo. I see no indication that things will be different in the future. It's very much a part of the game. The power of hearsay (i.e. popular-but-unverified knowledge): "Zidane has the best ball control of all time." "Valderrama was slow and lazy, but skillful."
I'm not saying that brazil 70 were a poor team - far from it - but when you watch the games the sloppiness of the passing and the poor control and shots seem far too common place for a team deemed to be the best team ever or the most 'beautiful' team ever... yes they won the trophy but of classic international teams - holland 74 and brazil 82 were much better on the eye no doubt.. so were platini's french teams.. The england brazil game 1970 is unbelievably dull for the majority of the game. Pele actually looks quite clumsy throughout the tournament. Watch the games if you get chance and see for yourself ... I cant say that the 82 team was more complete because they had a turd up front and they didnt win- but the midfield was easily better.. not even close. Nobody punished the 1970 brazil teams mistakes and sloppiness .. england, peru, romania all had the chances..
I don't think it's fair to hold old teams to modern standards. They will fall short anyway. Brazil 1962, 1970, and 1982 or Netherlands 1974. All of them will fall short. At club level it's even worse. The original Madrid Galacticos of the 50s and 60s would be eaten alive by Europa League sides of today. But that should take nothing away from them though. The greatness of Brazil 1970 is not as GOAT, that's just impossible. Their greatness is in establishing the new level of what GOAT is. Did the 1982 team do that? I don't think they did, so that's why, even if in absolute terms they were better than the 1970 team, in relative term, the 1970 team was greater.
Man! First of all, I'm loving this discussion. Second, those videos showing mistakes are quite jarring to my nostalgic little brain. But it's also good for my little ego. You're showing me even Zizou f*cked up like that?! Then I think on the other hand, we have to take in to account how many times they got it right. And I think that's what settles it. How many goals did Pele score again? With either foot, head and what not versus the other guys. Sure Zidane mis-controlled the ball at times, made hilariously erroneous passes, but then how many other times did he control the ball in seemingly magical ways? How many amazing passes did he get right? This is from a different sport, but I think it will convey what I'm trying to get at. Remember that Michael Jordan commercial where he says: "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." By his own account, he had a lot of failures, but there's no questioning his greatness, is there?
im not questioning pele's greatness at all he was without doubt an amazing player - but its true that we never saw the best of him at a world cup in his peak years... 1962 - injured, 1966 - poor brazil team and injured.. he still gave us many iconic moments in 1970 even though he was past his best.. Im not questioning 1970 brazil's greatness either - some of their play was great but i watched the games again and they look so amateurish at times and the defence got away with so many mistakes.. Its just that i read in articles that the 1970 team would beat any other world cup team in history and i doubt that very much.. The original question which started us discussing brazil 1970 was - would neymar get into the 1970 brazil team? Gerson says no - i say yes.