Don't disagree with what you say above. Just want to add that when I said, "And if its done at a high gpg, then it even has some meaning", I meant that those goals probably also amount to deep runs in tournaments, assuming the statistical probability and correlation between having a forward scoring at a high rate and the win percentage of said forward's team.
He came very close though to Maradona. Of course, Maradona 86 is the benchmark. But Romario came very close in WC94 to emulate him. Perhaps not in quality, but certainly in importance. He had 85%+ involvement in Brazil's success. Brazil scored 11 goals in total of which he scored 5 in addition to his 2 assists. He was crucial in all matches from group to finals.
Ronaldinho, Robben, Aguero and why is healy on this list? also are you talking about gpg? that was a comment about forwards. Nobody expects Ronaldinho having the same gpg as Ronaldo for example.
At which point do you and also @greatstriker11 think that Brazilian football (whilst still producing great players) clearly declined? I agree with your point about Neymar - if he stays in Europe and he does produces what he already showed he can in portions of 2016, he can easily surpass R9 and Romario. That being said, I consider R9 and also Romario more impressive players talent-wise; and again, Neymar as of yet has not produced NT performances of the level of R9 and Romario.
It depends on the current financial quality of the country of Brazil. So you'll have exodus and returns. between 2010 and 2013 had a pretty solid National League. Then we had an exodus because of the country going into a recession, making the teams unable to hold their players. But that happens all the time. 90s they did great until the crash of the economy and following exodus. Then they recovered in the mid 00s, then another exodus, then a slow build up back into he 2010-2013, crash and exodus. pretty much every decade you'll have the brazilian league having teams which will be world beaters. But a third world country does not have a stable economy to sustain such a league. If Brazil had better organization with their league, allowing fans to actually attend stadiums. Those players would not leave.
Yet they expect Messi to. But I digress. Healy is on the list because he has around the same GPG as Robben and Aguero.
Messi - same as Rivaldo or Baggio - should not be defined as a 'forward' since it is obvious that he doesn't play like a traditional forward. At the most, Messi could be defined as a Second Striker or as a False 9; Messi should not be expected to score as many goals as CR7 or Suarez, but because Messi can deliver striker-like goals, he is expected to do it year after year, which is irrational since Messi ends up competing against himself, not against his actual rivals. BocaFan is correct about this fact. By the way, to define Ronaldinho as "not a forward" and then Messi "as a forward" - is thoroughly irrational. The fact that you fail to recognize such a self-evident truth, speaks volumes about either your bias against Messi or your ignorance about positional differences. In any case: I don't dislike you Guigs nor do I have an agenda against your opinion, but if you go around saying that Ronaldinho is not a forward but that Messi is a forward - you should expect people to call you out for it.
Come on man.. he's a forward... by all definitions he's a forward He's not a Center forward, he's not a traditional striker? There are many types of forwards... if you are hired to score goals... Second strikers or false 9s are forwards... Are you now going to stay Bebeto isn't a forward? Robinho? forward and forward Yes he is... the offense ran around him for a very long time to begin with.... being the target man for finishes. And now with Suarez and Neymar also being able to produce he shares the goal scoring. By the way.. Neymar.. also a forward. Striker like as in headers? one timers from crosses? target man kind of stuff? cause he does not do that.. that's not part of his arsenal. Ronaldinho played the midfielder role and the attacking midfielder role. He never played Neymar's role or Messi's role. No such a thing. We are talking about subjective opinions. Nothing will be self evident truth Comes back to that argument of how defenders play very differently from each other. But we call them all CBs... meanwhile in order to rate forwards (mostly because we like to differentiate they different ways they play because we pay more attention to them) we come up with all of these positional differences. What was the last time you noticed that some CBs are cover CBs and won't directly challenge a player? What was the last time you noticed that some CBs mark more on the wings because they have the speed to intercept? What was the last time you noticed that some CBs are herders? What was the last time you noticed that some CBs are tight markers? What was the last time you noticed that some CBs directly challenge players? What was the last time you noticed that some CBs are ball playing CBs? What was the last time you noticed that some CBs are pressers? You can't have CBs that play the same style together in the back, it won't work. Same way you can't have two second strikers, or two strikers, or two wingers and nobody in the middle etc. Those are all VERY different types of CBs... however, their job is to stop the other team to score goals. Call me out then. Whoever says Ronaldinho is a forward clearly doesn't really follow football... you're comparing a guy that assisting goals and giving cadence to the game was his main job to a guy that scoring them is his main job.
legendary selecao player gerson says neymar wont even make the bench of brazils 1970 world cup winning team http://www.espnfc.com/futebol-brasi...in-brazils-1970-world-cup-winning-side-gerson
If neymar was transported back to 1970 in a time machine i think he would easily get into the brazil squad. Im a fan of brazil 70 but neymar has better or equal touch and technique to any of those 1970 players.. what do you think ?
Gerson is being ridiculous. He would get in to the 1970. Starting is up for debate. Is he better than Rivelino as that who he has to displace in the starting lineup.
I think one thing to consider about his comments is that he might not mean the squad - in those days a few subs could be named from the rest of the squad I think couldn't they, for each game....
I think the 1970 brazil team was fantastic , but brazil have produced players equally as good or better over the years..
can you explain how neymar would make the cut ..and EASILY,bearing in mind the 1970 brazil squad isn't just any old side but the greatest NT side of all time pele,tostao,rivelino,jarrincha,gerson just who is he replacing?? [by the way clodoaldo's moment of genius against italys legendary back four is imo still more iconic than anything neymar had done in a brazil shirt...not saying he is even remotely close to neymars level but I thought that I'd just make the point] neymar would probably make the cut for brazil 82[by playing as a cf,brazils lack of a recognised world class striker severely hurt their chances of winning in that tournament not to mention their lack of defensive players] falcao,zico and maybe Socrates still remain a clear level above neymar he would also make the cut playing for brazil 1990[easily replacing bebeto imo] as for brazil 98 and 2002 in my humble opinion he would be nothing more than a squad player[the player he would supposedly be challenging for a spot rivaldo at his peak was just another level in every conceivable facet of the game bar finishing]
First of all, Neymar isn't an attacking midfielder. He is a foward. So, he wouldn't be competing with guys like Zico or Socrates for a spot in the starting lineup. 1998, He would easily start in 98 as he is better than 34 year old Bebeto was at that time. He wouldn't though if Romario made the 1998 team but that isn't the question. 1970 is debatable IMO if you think current Neymar is better than Rivelino. I don't know enough about Rivelino to answer. From what I seen from Rivelino this could go either way. 1982, Neymar is better than Eder. He starts. 2002, I think current Neymar is better than 2002 Ronaldinho but I wouldn't start him over him in 2002. I don't think he fits better with Ronaldo and Rivaldo.
I think neymar would have got in the 1970 brazil squad - he is just as skilful as any of those players.. i love the 1970 brazil team but england could have got a result against them in the group game and italy were shattered in the final after their epic semi with west germany.. Brazil 70 didnt have it easy against romania either.. i think the weather really helped brazil in 1970..brazil 70 had a dodgy keeper and defence.. Yes neymar would have obviously got in the 1982 team too as centre forward for serginho.. with zico eder falcao and socrates behind him... Agree that neymar wouldnt have replaced any of the three R's in 2002 but id have him over bebeto in 1998...
Eder? when did he become a great player? He's not even close to the talent of Neymar. Come on now... you're a forward, your job is to score, and you are behind Tulio Maravilha in goals scored with the Canarinho? (tulio only played 15 games, eder player over 40) We're talking about Eder, not Vava, Leonidas, Tostao, Bebeto, Jairzinho, Careca even. Those would be more "obscure" forwards we had but 100% top forwards. However, none of them are as good as Neymar. I think you have not yet recognized how special this kid is. He's a generational talent. People have this tendency of thinking Brazil always had the best strikers ever, simply because they look back at the 1990 and we had 2 generational talents back to back. Romario and Ronaldo. Somehow that turned into... We always have that kind of talent at the forward position. Not true. I wish it was true.. but it is simply not true.
It has not declined. The world has caught up. So now teams which had semi professional athletes are now better. That's like saying European football has declined because now Iceland made it into the Euro knockout stage... Which would be a silly comment. They invested money into their league and their national team. Which caused it to be successful. Yet you make it over and over about Brazilian football. It still has the deepest talent pool out of any country, mostly because of the huge population playing the sport. Brazil has tons of managerial issues (not just the coach, the FA itself has issues) that are now more blatantly obvious since the talent can't just carry your team like it used to when you were playing semi-pro teams. The previous gap between the talents of Brazil, Italy, Germany and Argentina were too big before. Germany realized the world was catching up in the 90s and changed the way they ran their National Team. Italy has not, Brazil has not, Argentina has not. So Argentina has tons of talent being poorly ran. Their Under age national teams (like in Brazil) are a showcase to sell players not develop them into Senior players. So you see that talent be sold and forgotten. If the talent luckily gets a good coach along the way and develops them... you'll see it back into the Senior squad. Now we have more legitimate contenders than just 4. That's not a knock on those 4, that's the bottom closing the gap. Plus.. Brazil has only been the Brazil you are thinking of during the 60s and the 90s. Brazil in the 70s and 80s went without winning a single tournament for 19 years. I think that's more mediocre than current Brazil by far.
Who's Jarrincha ? Because scoring was Brazil's problem in 82 While I agree Serginho wasn't a good fit, and Careca would have been much better, lack of scoring was clearly not the issue for that team. That's not why they got knocked out. And if you've been watching Neymar, he hasn't been exactly the greatest finisher. So a striker wouldn't really be his position. It would be a better fit for him to take Eder or Socrates position. In 90 Bebeto was a bench player. Neymar would easily take Muller's place. He'd probably match up well with Careca. Of all the what if's of where he would fit in which team, this probably makes the most sense.