Forlan scored goals in wc10 but was nowhere near as impressive as you are attempting to make him out to be his wc10 golden ball is arguably in contention for the worst NT award in history alongside Messi's 2014 WC golden ball Either you enjoy trolling or just can't help your self from spreading bogus myths about CR7 Forlan Is a box striker like Romario nothing more and nothing less. His impact on a pitch and contribution towards teams results cannot be compared to a player who has been playing in at least 4 different attacking positions since the beginning of his career To put this into some perspective c.Ronaldo has nearly as many wide assists in his career as Diego forlan has scored goals for club and country C.Ronaldo is a demonstrably superior natural talent, goalscorer,creator,dribbler,entertainer etc Forlan like I have already hinted at can only be compared to "limited"strikers like muller,Romario,RVN etc whose role is strictly to score goals and nothing much more. Please failedstriker stop embarrassing yourself.
It also does not change the fact that Cristiano's "better talent" has won absolutely nothing for Real Madrid i.e. Cristiano being a greater talent than Forlan is totally redundant to the argument at hand, which is the fact that Real Madrid would have won the same amount of trophies with CR7, Suarez, Ibrahimovic, David Villa (in his prime), Forlan, etc. Any remotely "great" striker would have been enough for Real Madrid to win 3 titles and no Ligas. You repeatedly fail to understand that - CR7 scored against vastly inferior teams e.g. CSKA Moskva, APOEL, Galatasaray, Kobenhavn, Schalke, Roma, Wolfsburg, Malmo, etc. But what repeatedly happened to CR7 in the Semi Final legs and Finals and/or against the Top 7 teams in Europe?? Champions League 2013-16: Galatasaray / 1 game / 3 total goals / 10 goals by team Kobenhavn / 2 games / 3 total goals / 1 missed PK / 6 goals by team Schalke / 4 games / 7 total goals / 14 goals by team Basel / 2 games / 2 total goals / 6 goals by team Ludogorets / 2 games / 2 total goals / 2 PKs / 1 missed PK / 6 goals by team Liverpool / 2 games / 1 total goal / 4 goals by team Shakhtar Donetsk / 2 games / 5 total goals / 3 OP goals / 2 PKs / 8 goals by team Malmo / 2 games / 6 total goals / 5 OP goals / 1 FK / 10 goals by team Roma / 2 games / 2 total goals / 4 goals by team Wolfsburg / 2 games /3 total goals / 2 OP goals / 1 FK / 3 goals by team 21 games / 34 total goals / 28 OP goals / 2 missed PKs / 4 PKs / 2 FKs / 67 goals by team As thoroughly self-explained by the above data, this degree of "stat padding" is unprecedented: 34 goals out of 67 goals, and out of his 34 goals 4 were penalty kicks, he missed 2 penalty kicks, he missed countless (far too many to count) free kicks, and he scored 2 free kicks. Real Madrid was scoring 6-8 goals per every 2 games against non-caliber opponents. You play prime Diego Forlan in that format, and he will score a ton of goals - maybe not quite as many as CR7, but fairly close to CR7's numbers; it simply isn't difficult to score lots of goals when your team scores 6-8 goals per every 2 game against vastly inferior opposition. CR7 with his 34 goals against vastly inferior opponents was not a "difference maker" in any real sense. This degree of "stat padding" is in fact unprecedented, and has completely corrupted any value or meaning that France Football's Ballon d'Or ever had. You should not be crowned as the best footballer in the world purely because you have a knack for consistently scoring tons of goals against non-opponents (that Real Madrid would comfortably beat without CR7 to begin with). Champions League 2013-16: Juventus / 4 games / 5 total goals / 3 OP goals / 2 PKs / 6 goals by team Borussia Dortmund / 1 game / 1 total goal / 3 goals by team Bayern Munich / 2 games / 2 total goals / 1 OP goal / 1 FK / 5 goals by team (Real Madrid was already winning 3-0 before CR7 scored any goals.) Atletico Madrid / 4 games / 1 total goal / zero OP goals / 1 PK / 6 goals by team (Real Madrid was already winning 3-1 before CR7 scored his PK goal i.e. "penaldo" goal.) Manchester City / 1 game / 0 total goals / 0 goals by team (An auto-goal by Man. City was the only goal.) PSG / 2 games / 0 total goals / 1 goal by team 14 games / 9 total goals / 5 OP goals / 3 PKs / 1 FK / 21 goals by team A much more fallible or humane record against equal-level or equal-tier opposition: 1 goal out of the 6 goals that Real Madrid scored vs. Atletico Madrid; 5 of his 9 goals total came against Juventus; zero goals vs. PSG; zero goals vs. Manchester City; 5 open-play goals out of 14 games is nothing extraordinary; etc. His only outstanding record against top-tier teams is vs. Juventus, and even there, his overall performance vs. Juventus 2014-15 was plainly disappointing and widely criticized; not to mention the fact that 2 out of his 5 goals vs. Juventus, were PK goals. His goals vs. Bayern Munich 2013-14 and Borussia Dortmund 2013-14 were completely redundant goals, which added nothing to the outcome. CR7 played for the 2nd best team in the world, which also was the highest scoring team in the world -- many strikers in such a privileged position would've produced more or less the same exact "end product" as CR7 against such high-level opposition. He has not been good at all, against equal-level opponents. Overall: no other player in recent history (say starting in 1980) has enjoyed this level of corruption working in his favor. He scores lots of goal vs. vastly inferior opponents, but then consistently is decidedly disappointing vs. equal-level opponents. I'm not cherry picking results, this has happened consistently for 7 consecutive seasons i.e. 12 Semi Final legs, 2 Finals, and 2 Round of 16 legs; that's a lot of games; that's the opposite of cherry picking.
CR7 is not a "limited" striker but just decides to look limited over 90% of the time that he plays vs. good opponents?? You sir, are a complete moron.
10/11 semi final Barcelona beat real Madrid 2-0 11/12 semi final Bayern Munich beat real Madrid on pens FT score was 3-3 Ronaldo scored 2 goals and made 1 assist 12/13 semi final Real Madrid lose 4-1 to dortmund Ronaldo scores his teams only goal 13/14 semi final real Madrid beat bayern Munich 5-0 aggregate Ronaldo scores 2 goals and makes 1 good pre assist 14/15 semi final real Madrid lose 2-2 to juventus(away goal) Ronaldo scores 2 goals 15/16 semi final Real Madrid go through on a own goal scored by Manchester City and Ronaldo is injured for the first leg since the 2010/11 season real Madrid have scored 11 goals and 1 own goal in CL semi finals Ronaldo was directly involved in 9 out of 11 82% of his teams total goals Now we move onto euro championship semi finals Euro 2004 Portugal beat Holland 2-0 Ronaldo scores the first goal euro 2012 Portugal draw with Spain in FT and lose in the penalty shootout euro 2016 Portugal beat Wales 2-0 Ronaldo scores 1 goal and makes 1 assist since euro 2004 Portugal have scored 4 goals in euro championship semi's Ronaldo was directly involved in 3 out of 4 75% of his teams total goals You have your "'facts" all twisted up. Ronaldo thrashes the getafes and Barcelona's of this world with equal measure Real Madrid and Manchester United arguably don't win the vast majority of their titles since 2004 without CR7 And that is a fact that any fan with limited football knowledge will attest to
@leadleader C.Ronaldo vs "big teams" 22 goals and 1 assist vs seville in 15 matches Ratio:1.53 16 goals and 2 assists in 29 games vs Barcelona Ratio:0.62 4 goals and 1 assist in 4 games vs bayern Munich Ratio:1.25 18 goals and 8 assists in 26 games against atletico Madrid ratio:1.0 For every hattrick scored against wolfsburg there is a hattrick scored against atletico Madrid hattricks that contribute to winning league and champions league titles alike (For example Ronaldos hattrick and 1 assist scored against ATM in a 4-1 win during 2011/12 and also just recently which could end up being crucial to madrids title hopes this season) a match winning hattrick scored against seville in 2014/15 at their ground where they never lost a single match in 15 long months a winning goal against Barcelona to win the copa del rey in 2010/11 and the la liga title in 2011/12 A winning goal scored against Barcelona in the nou camp to end their 40+ game win streak during the 2015/16 season and I could go on but it's simply pointless
I think you should read that post cause he made some good observational points about CR7 below average semi finals and finals in UCL. Which is a contrast in performance not only to Forlan but to any other "legendary forward" in history. I agree vehemently with @leadleader but you are right it is indeed a Neymar thread. Having said that, I do agree with you that Neymar (being Brazilian) has a higher wall to climb in order to be accepted as GOAT when other non-Brazilians sometimes get away with it fairly easy.
I never argued that Forlan was "brilliant" all I did was agreeing with @leadleader view that he did better then any of Cristiano's NT stints in internationals. He was more "key" to Uruguay than CR7 was to Portugal. That is my opinion. You may not like it and that is fine with me. Yes, perhaps his WC10 Golden Ball award might be sub par (and I agree with you that so was Messi too) but at least they (Forlan/Messi) got something to show. They both did better then any of CR7 stints at Euros and WC. That is the point you are missing. Again that is my personal view. With all due respect to you. why do you have to provoke me in every single post? @comme read the post above. Pay attention to the out-of-thin-air (off-topic) comments of Romario again. Tell me that this isn't trolling? This time I will not respond to his comments and become canon fodder for sanctions. But pay attention and lets be honest about it. People are watching! I might be very critical of CR7 and all. But I am no troller and I am not chasing him. It is the other way around. The guy is chasing me down in every post. I hope you do your job objectively and deal with Carlito as hard as you deal with me in the recent past. It is unfair and unjust to have this go on over and over again without denouncement. Remember people are watching us (and you) so do something for sake of fairness. We were discussing Forlan vs CR7 and Romario has got nothing to do with it. I did not even tagged nor asked for Carlito's opinion. Could you please tell this guy Carlito to stop trolling me with "Romario" in every single post he directs to me? and why did he call me "failedstriker" isn't that a provocation if not outright trolling? @giles varley @leadleader @Guigs @dark knight ( you guys be witnesses of this before I get falsely antagonized and sanction again)
my username is "greatstriker11" and not "failedstriker" is this, calling me "failedstriker" not trolling (or a provocation) @dark knight ? I am denouncing Carlito's antics. He's been a constant sting on me for too long now. I haven't even asked for his opinion this time while I was discussing with @leadleader and @Guigs but he nevertheless jumped in and launched unprovoked attacks on me with "Romario this Romario that" nuances in a discussion completely unrelated. For quite a while now he's been doing this in every single post of him directed to me and he uses this tactic as bait in the hope that I will get upset and be antagonized so that he can get the other moderator misguided and intervening. I demand a fair and objective process in this matter. read all my recent post. I haven't called people names nor trolled. I did not even direct my post to him. This constant unprovoked attack on my person has to end.
Honestly, Carlito is allowed to do that practically all the time - the forum has declined sharply ever since Carlito's arrival. Maybe it is a total coincidence, but I think a character like Carlito whom is allowed to make (i.e. destroy) all threads by systematically transforming any topic into "CR7 is as good as Messi or possibly even better." I think such a character will tend to have a negative effect on any forum. He really needs to keep the CR7 propaganda at a minimum at least - but he actually does the exact opposite. As for Neymar - I agree with yours and Guigs' that being Brazilian, Neymar has to fight against two massive myths: Pele and R9. In other words: Neymar will need to be better than R9, in order to be perceived to be as good as R9. No other nation has 2 myths as big as Pele and R9, I'd argue. (Though Argentina is another difficult national team, because virtually any player will get thoroughly discredited on the basis of not being as great as Maradona was at World Cup 1986.)
let's be honest about this. @Guigs is right when he observed that Neymar (as much as Messi) do have higher stakes to overcome in order to even be considered as GOAT level. I mean in the case of Neymar, one great WC performance along with the title would not even suffice to have him any where near Pele. Poor guy has no chance. On the other hand, I must admit I might have been a bit unfair towards Messi too. You see, even Messi has the odds against him. He too needs a WC86 like performance along with the title to even be considered equal let alone better then Maradona. On hindsight, thinking back now, I have been harsh on Messi in the past. I think if Messi had a better support in NT he might have indeed given that performance in WC14 we so much expected. football culture has to be one of the dumbest institutes in the world of sport. It is a sport in which any low IQ individual can cast his vote and make it matter. in that expect it is no different than politics of populism.
How exactly does a forward have, historically, the most goals in CL semi-finals whilst also being "below average" in CL semi-finals? Seems like quite the anomaly! @leadleader simply points out any negative thing he can about CR7, while withholding pertinent information. In his mind, CR7 being rushed back from injury to playin 2 CL finals/ not being able to play in the Euro final due to injury = Not having any influence on his teams resulting win, never mind the fact that his teams would not be able to contest any of those finals without his contributions preceding said finals. Where is the in-depth analysis into say, Barcelona's 2009 CL triumph, where you could have removed all of Messi's goals in the knockout stage and Barcelona would still have triumphed (all else equal of course)?
Guys - this isn't a forum to discuss posters you don't like or use personal attacks. Please put people on your ignore list if you can't get along. If you continue to have problems we may turn off your access.
Below average for players of his perceived greatness, he sure has been in all the Semi Finals he has played with Real Madrid. Please do tell when was he ever, in his Real Madrid career, at his best in a Semi Final leg and/or Final game?? It's a simple question, and I expect a simple answer.
Neymar in all probability, will definitely get more goals than Pele for the Brazilian NT. Difficult to see how he can surpass Pele on other fronts though, like WC titles, number of career goals, being perceived as the best player in the world for a lengthy period of time or being the standard bearer for a legacy creating club team generation. He still has a bit of time on his side though.
I agree with all said here In terms of this generation I still think Neymar has all advantages to reap success beyond what many think he is limited. I think the majority of fans are underestimating the fact that he does have the advantage of youth. Just think, he has not even reached his prime yet. Pele is out of reach for sure. But I think that bar injuries, if he continues on due course with no obstruction in his path that by the time he retires people will look back on this era very differently then we see it right now. Who knows within the next 5 years Neymar will have done things beyond what CR7 and Messi have done so far? Not necessarily with club football per se, but perhaps in internationals with NT some here think it is impossible. But I say Neymar is one of those players who will get better with ageing.
You say you want a simple answer but its very clear that you won't listen to anything besides whatever is already in your head. You continue to gloss over the fact that he was rushed back from injury for both finals as if it's a minor point. FYI, he played quite well against Bayern in 2014, in both games. He netted 2 goals in the away game (probably don't count for you because it was a 4-0 win) and played well in the home game, despite not being 100%. Per Telegraph: "Cristiano Ronaldo He could have a tight hamstring, niggling groin and swollen ankle, and an opponent would still bottle it every time he had the ball. Didn't look 100 per cent but made a difference, released Coentrão for the first goal. He should also have scored on 25 minutes and was subbed on 73 minutes. 7" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...al-Madrid-v-Bayern-Munich-player-ratings.html Only to you would it be a shocker that a player with a chronic knee injury would have more difficulty playing at the end of the season after having 50+ games in his legs.
Why are people in here trying to make this yet another thread about a ton of unrelated players? Keep it back on topic or I'll close this one.
That still says something about Messi's path to GOAT. He needs to get to Maradona's level. Which would be WAY under Pele's level. If you stop to think about it... Maradona's performance in 1986 gives him the GOAT challenge. Romario had that performance in 1994 and people here don't even consider him a top 20 player. Why? Because of Pele. I don't even think Ronaldo 9 has a shot of GOAT, plus if Neymar wins a WC the way Romario did, he would clearly surpass both of them. Simply because Romario decided to go back to Brazil after he conquered the world so europeans didn't see half of his career. And if Neymar keeps pace he'll probably be much more successful than Ronaldo in Europe, he already has a CL to begin with. No other brazilian will ever get a chance at GOAT, unless he truly is GOAT. because of Pele. C. Ronaldo gets Eusebio as a comparison, and Messi gets Maradona. Those are much closer goals than Pele.
I just noticed that I have him on ignore, after a long while I finally put to see ignored posts. because I was always wondering about who the posters you were talking to were.
It can personally be a big deal for a forward to be the top scorer for his NT. And if its done at a high gpg, then it even has some meaning. The difference between a top scorer and NT legend though is if the top scorer stuff ultimately ends up winning silverware or not.
Silverware is the most important aspect for sure. But when it comes to a forward, scoring at a good rate will always be a determination of his accomplishments and effectiveness as a goalscorer. You can't just be the guy that has 30 more games in order to score the same number of goals as somebody else and be considered better. Your job is to put the ball behind the back of the net. So I agree high gpg is also very important for goalscorers as a measure of their performance.