I have to agree with Lawson here. I would be surprised if anyone on Barca's board knew who he was. As far as the players, I'm sure only the South Americans had any clue who he was. As for Gago, I wouldn't doubt Messi is involved, but we've seen strange decisions made before by NT coaches.
Xavi wanting a SA coach it would happen? I dunno. The thing is, after Tito stepped down, Barca needed to appoint someone. Different people obviously had different opinions about the candidates, and whom the few candidates were in the first place. If Messi had a positive view on Martino, it's quite a stretch to say Messi decided the coach. Let's be real Martino wasn't even on the radar? Um, let's be real he was. I never acted like players don't have hard time adjusting to Barca, of course some have harder time, some easier. It's not easy to join a team that plays in a very particular way. But that of course is something else than blaming that on Messi. Players usually take some time to adapt to a new team, even if the tactics was more "normal" than how Barca plays. New city to live in, new teammates, etc. I agree: it would be a dangerous thing to let a player choose the coach. But that's not what happened. How are you overestimating Messi's power in Barca? By thinking his opinion is more decisive in how Barca operates than it is. About Gago: I don't think I can really comment, as I haven't followed Gago's performances lately. Messi sick of Tello and Pedro? Tello is a young, promising LW back-up. Nothing to get sick about. With Pedro he has played years together very successfully, winning all there is to win, and they don't play in the same position, and seem to have a good chemistry as well. Nothing to get sick about. I'd hope to be not cynical. I think when it comes to players' opinions in how the team should operate, of course Messi belongs to the section of the more powerful players is, but that's far from him being the boss of Barca. If you think he is "pulling all the strings" then I honestly dunno what to say, as clubs don't operate that poorly, but you think they do, and I guess nothing I say will change your opinion.
I'd agree that it's probably true that not all of the board members knew him years before the appointment, but "nobody knowing about him" is taking it too far. And anyway, while I don't want to deny that Messi's opinion could have affected the board's decision, it was - practically and not only theoretically - the board's decision, not Messi's. He doesn't decide who coaches Barca or who plays in Barca, and it's really that simple.
I don't think it is. You'd be surprised to see the ignorance of some highly rated minds. Mourinho when talking about a player (Carlos Alberto) at a press conference that helped him won at Porto was asked what club he played at currently. Mourinho didn't know what Vasco da Gama was, which is ironic because it came from a Portuguese explorer. I've seen plenty of articles where top dogs came down to Brazil to look at players and when asked about the clubs, they didn't know squat. During the Confeds Cup, Spanish players were asked basic questions about Brazilian clubs and football history, and most of them were wrong with every question asked. So no, I don't think it's too far fetched that most of the board had no idea who he was or knew very little about him. EDIT: Messi may have not made the ultimate decision, but obviously his opinion weighed heavily in the decision of the board when there were more "qualified" candidates to choose from.
Look at the coaches they first approached and then tell me if tata was among that list, no he wasn't. I don't see how there is an argument that Messi wasn't highly influential in choosing your next coach. Obviously it struck a chord with you so it must be true lol. Barca need to keep messi for the foreseeable future that is why Barca chose Tata, not because barca's board are scouting South American football stop being so naive. I already gave you a clear example in Messi pushing his weight around with the Argie National team Messi is as big as your club whether you like to admit it or not. Every European journalist worth there salt is saying this was all Messi so they all must be wrong then. I love how you are going into theory mode to act like the Barca board made this decision on there own. Do you believe people choose there elected officials also?
Mourinho is a special case. When he was Real Madrid's coach, he acted like he didn't know who Tito Vilanova was. He says all kinda **** lol. I'd agree with that "most didn't know about him or had very little knowledge". That's something else than nobody knew anything, though. And yeah, I agree as well that not every scout, player and coach in Europe has that intensive knowledge on SA football history. And I remember those Confed Cup interviews as well. I'm not sure about "more qualified candidates". Every name I saw rumoured had real negative factors in them, or they were simply unavailable.
Sure, but Tata also had real negative factors (lack of experience in European football being one and probably a real concern when it comes to Europe or we'd see more SA managers at bigger clubs). I'm sure someone in the board, if not more than one member asked Messi if he had an opinion on a manager. This may have taken place after Barca tried to see the availability of other names. Messi told them about Tata (and the fact he was available) and the board members went ahead and did their research on him. Saying Messi is pulling the strings is probably taking it too far, but he was very influential in Tata's hire IMO.
Do you want to tell your star player thanks but no thanks after he suggests a manager? Especially when that manager was Messi's dads favorite player?
Eh, I don't know about that. That sort of thing definitely happens at SA clubs though, I think the situation also lended a hand in the decision.
AFAIK, when Tito stepped down, Barca didn't make an offer to anyone before they made an offer to Martino. Of course papers immediately lined up dozens of names, but that's what they do. Messi influential? That I'd agree with. Messi choosing the coach? No. And his opinion wasn't all-decisive either. Struck a chord with me... lol I dunno about that. I mean, while I like Messi, I'm more Barca fan than a Messi fan. And I don't have worries about post-Messi Barca, we'll continue to be strong. Also Messi doesn't seem like a player to tour clubs like, say, Ibra, so I think whoever the coach yesterday, today or tomorrow, I think Messi leaving Barca is not a real worry to any Barca fan. About Argentina NT: again I repeat - I haven't watched Gago intensively lately so I can't judge how much he does or doesn't merit a spot in the team. I don't know if every European journalist say it's all on Messi, but I'd doubt that a bit. Could be wrong though. Theory mode? Of course Barca's board made the decision officially (that was never debated here), and I think practically the decision wasn't made by the entire board - of course, as dif members have differing roles in preparing dif decisions. The bosses who did in practice decide the new coach were influenced by people's opinions, Messi being one of them, and obviously they studied the possible candidates before the appointment. This doesn't translate to Messi picked Tata, so the bosses made it happen.
Agreed - all coach candidates had negative factors more or less. I'm not saying lack of Euro experience wasn't a negative factor, but I think it may have been lesser factor than we might think. I mean, we just signed Neymar who also lack Euro experience and that's a negative factor of some sort. The thing is, Barca bosses aren't arrogant Euro trolls in forums who don't respect SA football. They know if you're quality in SA, you're very, very likely quality in Europe. I don't know about "very influential" as I think it implies "deciding it", but I'd agree with him being influential. I mean, fair enough, and I don't have a problem with different team members voicing their opinion whom should be signed. When it comes to signing players, players do this regularly I guess. But it's of course something else than saying a player has decisive power on whom join.
If he suggests a wrong man, yes. There are million ways to keep a star player happy, and transfers are only one of them. The choice of the coach is one bit of sand in the beach of how Barca treats Messi, and whatever the decision, it doesn't have a radical affect. Besides, it's not like Messi is acting like someone who consistantly threatens the club to treat him well (like, say, Rooney does).
Sure, but there are plenty of unproven SA players that make the jump to European football and to big teams at that. As far as coaches, the same story doesn't hold true. There is Pellegrini and....and and.... (Bielsa no longer in Europe). Muricy Ramalho was considered the best coach in Brazilian football for years, yet no European team went and got him. The board may not be a bunch of forum trolls, but I still reserve my doubts about lack of Euro experience not being a big factor.
Yea I agree with you here. The whole reason why I think Messi made a power play for Tata was that he is the right guy. I still think barca made a big effort to make Messi more relaxed, it seems like they want him to be a one club player.
Pellegrini is the perfect example when he took over at Madrid the media was on his ass from day one saying he hasn't won anything. Obviously he is a good coach but he got absolutely shredded by the fans at Madrid after he was great in SA and Villareal. Hopefully he gets more respect in Man City I have always liked him.
The pressure is crazy on SA managers in Europe. They get labelled as flops immediately. Just ask Bianchi, Luxemburgo, Felipao, Parreira, etc... All of these guys had to do AMAZING things in SA to even get any consideration to coach in Europe. It's funny that South American teams get ripped when they fire a coach too soon, but with the managers above, they barely got a full season at their respective clubs. Hardly a chance to establish yourself. European teams have been more reluctant signing SA managers because of this...
I half-agree. I mean, "unproven" is a tough word, and I don't think Euro clubs buy anything else but good SA players. With so many good players in SA, why would they buy mediocre ones. Of course, young players from SA or from Europe can always turn great or poor. Being young, say, under 23, it's in a way I guess tricky to be "proven" as you can't have a consistant career at that point. As for coaches from SA rarely coaching in Europe, yeah, I agree. It's kinda weird, imo. One would've thought that, Brazilian (and to lesser extent Argentinian) football so admired in Europe, more clubs would've wanted to get some of that in the form a Brazilian coach. But Barca has lately been a weird club with head coach appointments anyway: Pep had never coached an adult team before, yet they just gave him Barca's first team. Then when he left, they just appointed his assistant, who had never been a head coach of an adult team either (except Palafrugell).
When I say "unproven", I meant unproven in Europe. Not unproven in the sense that they haven't demonstrated that they can play well.
Madrid fans rip anyone, though. The club has consistantly won Ligas, and yet look at their managerial history. One of the hottest seat for sure. Agreed, I like Pellegrini too. Hopefully he does well at City, and obviously he is quality. What he did in Villarreal was imo amazing, and while I don't enjoy him not being respected, I didn't mind it going sour in Madrid, as they're the rivals.
I dunno if it was professional, but sure it was ugly anyway. Not that I know what it has to do with Messi/Neymar.
Of course Tata was known to the board and Zubi (the sports director). Tito's problem didn't appear from nowhere, it was known and they already had a plan-B. That is for sure, even last year there was talk about replacing Tito due to his medical situation. As soon as he stepped down, 2 names popped up and those were Luis Enrique and Tata Martino. But maybe Messi was waiting for it to happen and in the middle of the night (when Rosell got the call from Tito) he sent him a message and told him to appoint Tata? Let's be real, Messi is a player. His opinion counts, as he is the best player in the world. It doesn't mean he chooses the coach though and who's going to play. If someone believes that, he both underestimates everyone working at the club that are supposed to take those calls and he overestimates Messi's influence. Barca has a specific way of playing and they didn't want to change that since the change of manager was due to his illness and nothing else. Because of that there are very few managers that are suited for that role, let alone managers that also were available at that time. That they are Argentine and come from the same city doesn't mean very much. They never even met each other before, something both Tata and Messi said. If they would have chosen a Catalan coach that coached the youth teams (someone like Tito), then we would be hearing the same comments. "They just appointed him because he coached Messi as a kid and he made them hire him". Barca is a huge club that always have some of the best players in the world. They don't need Messi or whoever is at the team to tell them who to hire.
Imperador3 - For the record, I DO NOT think Messi chooses the players or chose Tata. However, I do believe he was consulted and his opinion did have some weight on the decision. Messi is a player, but not just a typical player. Tata was known? Do you have a source? I'd be curious to see what they had to say about him. Messi link to Tata goes beyond being from the same city. Messi spent 5 years at Newell's as a kid, where Tata is an idol. Messi's dad idolizes Tata. Messi had already said that he follows NOB, his boyhood club. They may have never met, but do you think he knows nothing about him? Even a member of Tata's staff had coached Messi at NOB. No, I don't think if you hired a youth coach that the line would be because he trained Messi as a kid. Your last 2 hires were coaches from the Barca system as well.
I said that to the person who claimed he chose the coach. That Tata was known you just need to read what Zubi and Rosell said when they hired him. He was considered one of the best coaches in South America, of course he was known. He coached in a World Cup recently. You really believe that Futbol Club Barcelona, one of the biggest clubs in the world, and the best club in the last years with demands to win everything every year would hire a coach they didn't even know who it was some days before? Just like Barca know about him of course Messi and his dad also knew about him. Any Argentine person knows about him and any person within football that follows South American football knows about him. That his dad idolized him doesn't mean anything, that is a bit of stretch IMO. With that logic Xavi chose Pep as a coach since it was his idol. And that goes for any former big football player that gets hired, since there is always someone in the team that grew up watching him, in this case it wasn't even that, it was his father that watched him. Barca considered to hire Bielsa not so long ago, Tata Martino is considered to be his "pupil". Much less controversy and by many even considered better, so the choice is not that weird. With that said I'm not saying they never asked him about Tata (which they didn't according to Messi and Tata and everyone else). But that doesn't mean anything, Messi's voice doesn't count more than the one of Puyol or Xavi or Iniesta etc. The choice of the coach was made because they believe he is a good coach that fits the team and not because they want to suck up to Messi. Of course they need get the best out of him since he is the best player in the world. But that goes for all the other players too, the clubs goal is to win and not to make Messi satisfied. I'm sure Neymar and Messi are aware of that too. It's just really silly to picture Messi as some kind of dictator that decides everything and gets everything he wants. Both Neymar and him said that they are getting along well, just as all the other players also get along with him. But I know that as soon as he gives Neymar as much as a look in a game, that this topic gonna popup again with Messi haters saying that he hates Neymar and he wants him out of the team and blablabla
He was largely unknown to Europeans. I have my doubts that any of the board members were watching Libertadores action this season or Argentine league to know how he was doing. If anyone had been, it may have been scouts. Did you see Martino's Paraguay? He may have spent time with Bielsa, but he isn't necessarily the same coach. Paraguay was never known as an attacking team like Bielsa's Chile was.