News: Neymar 4-Game Suspension from Copa America

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Mengão86, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    First of all, my criticism is not of the opinion of how good he is. The article is full of mistakes. First of all, Messi is left footed not right footed. Read the article again. Secondly, he started the season scoring many goals with his weak right foot. So it wasn't just a simple mistake confusing the right foot with the left one. He is clearly clueless in this point. Maradona was extremely one footed and one of the best ever. Rivaldo was extremely one footed. So the comment that Messi needs to train his weak foot is absurd. No credible football journalist would write this. Only a fan who may have an agenda in his writing. Probably to get page views.

    Secondly, he is stupid to think that Messi at 27 would be running the same way as Messi at 21. He is judging Messi just based on that and not his overall game. He says he is flaming out young ... the guy has had 8-9 years of incredible performance. Show another player that has done the same. They are very, very few.

    Titles are won by teams and not individuals. And NT title competitions are few and far between not to mention some luck can play a part as well.

    If you watch him play for Argentina, he still does great in providing service but he has played much deeper and farther from the goal at times (example is WC 2010).

    Not to get too much into this, but Pele' always had amazing talent alongside him at NT level. Maradona is the only who can probably claim he carried a team on his back to a WC title to a certain extent. And still, he never won a CA mind you. His one claim to NT success is that one WC. A very thin line don't you think ?
     
  2. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL, I paid attention to the Neymar-Messi thing and not to the left foot/right foot - you have a point there! Maybe the guy *is* clueless after all!! OK, you proved your point.

    Now, about Messi and the Argentine national team, I thoroughly disagree. Up to recently Messi in three participations had 1 goal with Argentina in World Cups. He did a bit better in the second half of the 2014 World Cup but still wasn't the decisive player one would expect, and he knew it, since he didn't seem to appear (I mean through his facial expression) like he believed that he deserved the accolade from FIFA as the MVP.

    Sure, Pelé had a supporting cast, but from age 17 he was already playing *great* for the team, scoring, and being the WC champion with the team. In 1970 his participation was again, brilliant and decisive.

    And no, one can't take anything from Maradona. A very thin line? The man won a WC by himself with a mediocre team. Like you said not even Pelé did this. You call it thin??? And Maradona had other good games for Argentina.

    Messi on the other hand is often, almost always, anemic for the national team. Sure, he won't be entirely useless given that he does have his individual talent and will show a burst of dribbling here and there. But he just doesn't seem to click with the team.

    I hate to quote another article, and maybe start another flame war, but sorry, here it goes: Goal.com this time, I hope you like them. It highlights how mediocre Argentina was against Jamaica today, and how Messi was dull:

    http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/587/...e-team-will-we-ever-see-the-real?ICID=HP_HN_1

    This article, sure, repeats what has been said over and over of this club/nation gap for Messi, but it does introduce another point that I hadn't noticed, in that table - how all 7 Argentine wins in competitive matches since June 2014 were by only one goal. Yep, for all their hype, they aren't that great, are they?

    Messi belongs in the conversation with Pelé and Maradona among the greatest as far as club soccer is concerned but definitely doesn't belong when national team is concerned. This, not to forget Ronaldo Fenômeno who was also great for both club and nation. In terms of GOAT I'd put these three ahead of Messi without hesitation, and would even consider a few others before him as well - maybe Beckenbauer, Zidane, Garrincha, etc.
     
  3. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I did forget to say one thing you mentioned that is very factually incorrect. Neymar DOES NOT assist Messi. Neymar had something like 7 assists this year. Messi had a bad season before Neymar arrived because he got injured. Neymar actually immensely benefits from Messi's assists.

    I agree to a certain extent. But if you watch his WC2010 performances, he did not play badly. He came extremely close to scoring 3-4 goals in that WC hitting the post and having some goalies make some really good saves. Even so, nobody created a single great opportunity for him. He was creating for others and himself and he was playing deeper. Please don't include Messi in 2006. That's disingenuous to say the least. He was a sub and barely played.

    It wasn't just a great supporting cast ... they were amazing players which contributed the same as Pele' in those WCs even though Pele' turned out to be the best player. For example, Didi was MVP of 58. And Jairzinho had arguably a better performance than Pele' in 70 by scoring in every single game and having more dribbles.

    I call it thin because for example, Maradona did not have a great Final performance in 86. The game was at 2 x 2. What if Germany scores the 3rd ? Not to mention that the 3rd goal came from the German team inexplicably leaving their defense wide open.

    Messi could have been a WC winner had he hit the one clear chance he had on target. Or Higuain not screwed up his. It would not have been a Maradona 86 performance, but that's what I am referring to as a thin line when talking about NT performance. Messi also could have won a WC and 2 Euros had he chosen to play for Spain as he could have. Would have been similar to Pele as he would have had better teammates and better coaching.

    Messi nowadays does conserve his energy so when he doesn't deliver a goal or assist, it looks like he plays poorly. But he almost scored 2 great goals today. Had they gone in, the article would have been different.

    Ronaldo's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. One league title in his whole career. Think about that. Zidane, while a great player, is also a perfect example of overrating a player because he happened to win a WC. He didn't carry France in 98. He just happened to score 2 very unlikely header goals in the final.
     
  4. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Here you go ... probably just a tug and not a physical assault. But touching the ref is asking for it nowadays.

    http://www.espnfc.us/brazil/story/2499882/brazil-star-neymar-got-off-lightly-with-four-match-ban

    However, Alberto Lozada, a member of the disciplinary committee, said Neymar's punishment was so severe because he had provoked a confrontation in the tunnel with referee Enrique Osses.

    Lozada told Associated Press: "The referee's report says that Mr. Neymar was waiting for him to insult him. Neymar grabbed him by the arms, and told him: 'You want to get famous through me, you son of a [expletive]?'"
     
  5. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    It's from that article 4 games was actually being lenient could of easily been 10 as they don't take ref abuse lightly.
     
  6. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @celito - are you sure you don't want to discuss Alves or David Luiz? I'm game :ROFLMAO:
     
  7. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The width between Eiffel Tower's legs is so large that Avenida Alves can go through it ;)
     
  8. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you are underestimating Neymar's role. If you count only the assists that Messi was able to cash in, you'll get 7 but not all assists result in goals. It's been complained that Neymar doesn't assist Suárez as much but he does assist Messi. You can take it from the mouth of the horse himself. Messi has mentioned how Neymar has helped him. And while Messi is a great footballer (I never said otherwise) I do feel that he is not the same any longer. It doesn't matter what the reason for this is - injury, age, 27 vs. 21, whatever. I'm not speculating on the reasons, I'm just talking about what I see. You look at him an entire game and you see flashes of brilliance, of course, but you don't see that constant nightmarish threat and you don't get any longer that feeling that he is completely unstoppable. As a supporter for the other side, I no longer experience that sinking feeling in the gut when he gets the ball. Sure, he'll still get great seasons with Barcelona, but look at the supporting cast! Barcelona is not just a club, but it is something like a planet-wide selection! The best of the best playing together and all acting harmoniously to set it up for their top star, no wonder said top star does well. Then you get another set of players in the Argentine national team, and oops, you don't see the same result. This is hard to explain, no matter how hard you try.
    Well, at the age Messi had in 2006, Pelé was not left on the bench. He was busy being the world champion and scoring. Oh well, Messi hit the post, oh well, his header went wide by a hair, etc. This sounds to me like a bunch of ifs. Hitting the post and heading wide is inaccurate finishing. It doesn't result in scores. The game is not decided by how many shots hit the post or the crossbar or went wide by a hair. It's decided by how many balls went in. Hitting the post is wasting an attack. We celebrate Pelé and Maradona and the such for the goals scored, not for the misses. Except for the two gorgeous Pelé misses in 1970, hehe (the one from midfield and the dribble on the goalie) but these are part of soccer's history.
    Oh come on. Pelé was *always* great no matter what, with and without a supporting cast, in countless games, with the Santos that won twice the world championship and countless other titles, and with the national team. Are you playing down Pelé's genius because he happened to play his trade in a golden era of Brazilian football? Pelé played *against* many of these other geniuses in Brazilian club soccer and generally always did well.
    Again, please drop the what ifs. Winning a WC is not easy and of course there is some randomness, but nobody in his right mind won't acknowledge Maradona's importance to Argentina's triumph. Messi has never had such an essential role and has disappointed for the national team over and over and over.
    Again, if you need this many what ifs, do understand that the player you are defending needs the what if help and can't stand alone on his REAL record.
    You don't know that. He could also have choked and vomited on the field and done nothing.
    How many ifs you want to write in one post??? The reality is that Messi doesn't inspire as much fear as a few years back, *for whatever reason* which means he has passed his prime. I do think he'll be champion this time by default since most others suck and Brazil has been amputated of Neymar, but it's not because of unstoppable brilliance.
    What? Ronaldo won the Copa do Brasil with Cruzeiro in 2003, the Dutch Cup in 1996 (scored 54 goals in 58 Eredivisie games), the UEFA Cup Winner's Cup, the Copa del Rey, the Supercopa de España, was La Liga's top scorer in 97, was the European Golden Shoe, and at age 20 was the FIFA World Player of the Year, won it again with Inter Milan the next year (and a third time later), and the Balon d'Or, then got injured. His Real Madrid stint was going very well with the team poised for a triple crown then he got horribly injured again and the team declined. He did win La Liga in 2003. Oh, and the Intercontinental Cup in 2002 and Spanish Super Cup in 2003. What am I forgetting? Ah, UEFA Cup in 1998 with Inter, and a Copa do Brazil with Corinthians. So, yes, not Messi's string of titles with the Earth-Selection Barcelona, but one can't say Ronaldo wasn't great for club. My point is "great for club and nation" and Ronaldo was, while Messi is not.
    Oh wow. Zidane, overrated??? Hm... Okaaay.... so you are ready to defend Messi for not scoring but being a playmaker farther away from the goal, and you can't see Zidane's playmaking? Zidane was one of the greatest midfielders the game has ever seen and you're just giving him (partial) credit for some goals? Players like Zidane, Maldini, Pirlo, and libero Beckenbauer are not exactly famous for goals scored, given that they are not forwards. So, Zidane "just happened to score 2 very unlikely header goals in the final" - oh wow. Just? LOL. OK, I was countering your points but respecting them, but sorry, buddy, now you kind of shot yourself in the foot by calling Zidane overrated.
     
  9. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lancenet survey: 67% of *Brazilians* support CONMEBOL's decision to ban Neymar for 4 games!

    The more I think of it, the less outraged I get. There *are* attenuating circumstances but ref abuse is a serious matter and Neymar must understand that even if the ref was biased, not calling fouls against him, and using the first opportunity to give him a yellow in an involuntary handball, you don't go yanking the ref's shoulder backward, and you don't go to the ref's tunnel to abuse him.
     
  10. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  11. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  12. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    From my sources in legal for CBF, the appeal is not looking good at all. Furthermore, Conmenol has never in the past reduced a sentence. But nothing is definate and we will know Tuesday.
     
  13. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Honestly I am more worried about him missing too many WCQ games. So I hope we stay at least until the SFs. That way he'd only miss one WCQ game.
     
  14. Bakaman

    Bakaman Member

    May 8, 2008
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The ban only applies to Copa America games. If we leave before the 4 games ban, the rest will be payed in the next Copa America.
     
  15. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You should know by now that the ban only applies to Copa América (this edition and the future one) and not to WCQ.
     
  16. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Ooooops :ROFLMAO:
     
  17. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, see? You can also be misinformed, so, you should give a discount to the web journalists, LOL.
     
  18. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh wow, they have never reduced a sentence? So, it definitely looks bleak.
     
  19. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Don't be bitter :ROFLMAO:
     
  20. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was just teasing you (couldn't resist) by why do you think I'm bitter? I actually enjoyed our discussion. I did concede to you that the web journalist committed a blunder regarding Messi's foot, but I didn't agree much more with anything else you said, and I'm not convinced that you won any big points against my points. Even if you had, I wouldn't be bitter either. This is just an Internet sports board, bro. It would take a lot more to make me bitter. I do keep a sense of proportion and I'm not here to fish for glory, but just, to discuss one of my favorite sports.
     
  21. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    CBF dropped the appeal, therefore the 4 games stand. Neymar is leaving Chile because "it pains him to just sit and train and not be able to help the team in games."
     
  22. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  23. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Sad, but now if Brazil happens to win the Copa, Neymar wont get be able to get a winners medal!! And this screwed up his chances of winning POTY!!
     
  24. MerlinRM

    MerlinRM Member+

    May 5, 2014
    NorthEast USA
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Even if we won with Neymar, there was no way Messi is/was getting snubbed.
     
  25. Jiripoca

    Jiripoca Member

    Jul 16, 2013
    London - Sao Paulo - Peruibe
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    A question which no-one is addressing which is obvious is Why does Neymar get so much abuse? Its not because of his skill because Messi is better than him but he never gets this harsh treatment. I say its because Neymar has a reputation for being cocky and arrogant, takes the piss; whereas Messi is more humble and doesn`t inspire opposition players to kick him or beat the crap out of him.
    Neymar is a great player but he needs to understand showboating is like a red rag to a bull for the opposition. The more he shows off, the madder they get, and the madder they get the more he gets kicked, and the referees lose sympathy for him and dont call obvious fouls. Learn from Messi menino!
     

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