Most goals in El Classico (the biggest club game in the 21st century) doesn't signify big game performance? Most goals and assists in the Champions League KO stage (the toughest stage of the toughest club competition in the world) doesn't signify big game performance? You have to BS harder.
There is a reason why I specifically said during that season "traditional rivals" such as Barca and Atletico weren't at their best as in Spain the best teams historically are Madrid, Barca, and Atletico. Every now and then there will always be surprise season/s where it looks like the power is shifting but eventually the cream always rises to the top. This is the same with what happened with Leicester vs. how the likes of ManU and Chelsea performed last season. Now in 2002-03 season the most in form teams were arguably Deportivo, and Valencia while Sociedad and Celta were more of surprise packages in La Liga that season, but all these weren't the reason I highlighted state of Barca and Atletico that season. My intention was to provide a context in case somebody ends up thinking the level of competition was similar to now. Despite my feeling that the level of Madrid was nowhere closer to the one of recent years (10'-17) I also don't think the likes of Deportivo and Valencia where even at the level of Atletico in recent years but that is the debate for another day. Looking at Ronaldo's performance that season you'll struggle to find many standout performance in both La Liga or CL. Most of the time he was scoring odd goal which is not surprising that he only scored 23 goals. Unless if somebody can provide a different angle 23 goals by a striker hardly gets described as out of this world, actually even in those years expectations was that a good striker should get you +-20 goals which R9 achieved like many other strikers across European leagues that season. Lastly I honestly don't think there is any player who rides on 1 big performance like R9 with ManU hattrick. If one doesn't know they'll end up believing he's the only player to have scored hattrick in a high profile game. R9 ended with +-6 CL goals in that season and when you add 23 in la Liga that season pales in comparison to what CR7 has been able to deliver throughout his time at Madrid. The big game theory is a myth imo and there is so much data that is readily available to disprove this. Whether in the CL, knockout games, finals, national team, el classicos, Atletico, Sevilla, Bayern, Juve, etc.
you are confusing biggest game performer with racking up goals. i would say that CR7 at manchester produced many more memorable performances than any time at Madrid by far. at real madrid, specifically from 13-17, he has not had any big game performances but rather tallying up on goals which there is a difference. for the sake of fair comparison. let's judge performances of Messi and Ronaldo against Atletico, barca vs real rivalry, and champions league semifinal, final, and quarterfinal performances against top teams from 09 onwards (Just you and me, no one else, so that we don't turn this into a ronaldo messi thread). messi beats ronaldo by a comfortable distance in this department. and to clarify, when a player does little to nothing all game but gets a tap in goal and a freekick would you consider that a top performance?? because if you do, then you need to define your definition of performance or performer
No, you are simply assuming the two cannot be the same. R9's game against Manchester United is remembered because of his hat trick, IE his goals. Not due to anything else. Why? Because that is what his role is intended to do. Score goals. As CR7's is. This seemingly, increasingly common attempt to devalue a player's goals to their overall contribution to the game (when the actual point of the game itself is to get the most goals possible) is one of the most odd things I've ever seen. If the purpose of the game is to score more goals than your opponent, how can it ever be argued that scoring goals is itself not a worthy contribution? Defies any logic whatsoever. Maradona 86' is remembered and so highly valued why? Because of the goals he scored. He doesn't score those goals against England and that tournament performance isn't valued as highly. Pele 58'? Same thing. Goals are important, doesn't matter what any hipster football fan says.
I was saying, those stats do not show big game performance in it self . Example , scoring 2 goals vs Bayern when the tie is already dead doesn't qualify for me . Scoring vs some average teams in the QF doesn't either . The stage can be big, but the opponent isn't .
El Classico goals (16 total) ... of which only 5 from open play (3 others from PK) in the most important La Liga and CL games (18 games). Other 8 are 4 CDR (a big one in a final) and 4 in the not so meaningful Spanish Super Cup.
Actually this thread was intended to talk about everything and anyone except Messi or Ronaldo. I know some posters begin each day by searching for 'Ronaldo' or 'CR7' to make sure nobody is dissing him, but every few days its probably a good idea to check the title of the thread you've been posting in.
If the purpose of the thread is to discuss Ballon D'Or winners post Messi and CR7, how could that be done without actually discussing them? Any answers will have to include hypotheses as to when they decline enough for that to happen. I know the real purpose of your post was to give a veiled dig at posters who defend CR7 but you could have done it without the illogical point.
if you read my post correctly without taking it out of context. you will read that @carlito86 stated that CR7 is the biggest performer in big games than any player in his generation. Messi plays in this generation so i highly disagree. and that is why i said that both he and i can settle the debate based on the criteria i made in my post. number 2, i never even mentioned R9, nor did i ever even say that he was a bigger game performer than CR7, but then again I NEVER even mentioned R9. number 3, i don't even rate R9's match that highly. the first leg was won by real madrid 3-1, so it was more of a consolation match if anything. number 4, i never said scoring goals was not a big deal! neither did i say it wasn't a worthy contribution! I said don't use it as the 'all and be all' measurement to discuss the biggest performer in a generation because context is just as valuable as statistics. Are you kidding me???!! every single match that maradona played in the 86 world cup was of the highest order in every aspect of the game excluding the final. and i mean, he played top class in all the other matches, forget about scoring. he was the ultimate playmaker. and if i'm not mistaken, the most goals scored in a world cup ever was by Just Fontaine in 1958 (13 goals), but a brazlian player named Didi won the player of the tournament that same tournament. Didi scored 1 goal that tournament! I rest my case. in addition, when ronaldo scores 2 deciding goals to win a tie, including dribbling from the half-way line in a big match, like Messi did against real madrid at the bernabeu in 2011 CL semifinal and Maradona did in 86 against England, then we talk about excusing ronaldo for a poor performance.
I don't think we're really in disagreement on much, maybe some misconceptions. I agree Messi is a better big game player than CR7 but naturally that doesn't mean CR7 is not a big game player, which was my main point. Concerning Maradona, I'm not saying his 86' was great because of the goal. I'm saying scoring the most iconic goal in the sports history served to elevate the status of his performance. This does not mean his performance would still not be considered the best in World Cup history if not for that goal, simply that the goal elevated it even moreso in terms of perception. Concerning Just Fontaine, I'm quite sure there was no Golden Ball in 1958. In any case, goals are important (but not vital, see Kahn 2002) as evidenced, for example, by the likes of Salvatore Schillachi, a player with less than 20 caps for Italy by career end, winning Golden Ball at Italia 90 purely due to his goals in the tournament, ahead of the likes of Maradona, whose team made it farther than Italy.
Bringing them up briefly in passing is all that's really needed for this thread. Not BadaBing-like posts about how great both of them have been in the past decade.
I disagree that to properly answer this question requires simply bringing them up in passing but I agree that CR7's "big game" performances have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
@Milan05 is an excellent poster who is more or less absolutely correct about CR7. He has not been "strayed from the truth by the dark side..." (And LMAO that's both silly and ironic, coming from a known CR7-propagandist and CR7-apologist like yourself.) Milan05 has simply watched CR7 enough times to understand that CR7 is overrated, which is something that far too many fans haven't actually done.
I totally agree that CR7 is not a big game performer. This has always been fairly obvious, starting with the fact that CR7's stats are average against 2008-2012 Barcelona, but then better against 2012-2016 Barcelona (post-Guardiola). When CR7 was good against Barcelona 2012/13, Thomas Muller (Bayern Munich) scored 3 open-play goals against Barcelona in a Semi Final. And that's basically what you get with CR7: when CR7 is seemingly good against top tier teams, you invariably see that other "lesser" players are even better against the same top tier teams. On the other hand, about CR7's Manchester United career being enough to put him on par with Ronaldinho. I more or less agree, at club level. But overall, Ronaldinho's 2002 World Cup then becomes a considerable factor when you compare it against CR7's inferior NT career. Overall: I don't strongly disagree about this, but I feel that Ronaldinho had better Champions League performances, and also a better NT career.
In 2004, scores a decisive goal in the FA Cup Final at 19 years old. In the same year, scores the first goal in a Euro semi-final to lead Portugal to their first ever major tournament final. In 2006, is the best Portuguese player, among the likes of Figo, against France in a World Cup semi-final. In 2008, scores a decisive goal in the Champions League final. In 2009, destroys Arsenal in the CL semi-finals and was the undoubted best player on the field for the first 20 minutes against Barcelona in the final before Barca took control of the game due to CR7's teammates not being anywhere close up to par that day. The list can go on. You are someone who has written pages worth of criticism of CR7 yet didn't even know, up until a few months ago, that he has won La Liga. That alone is enough to prove that you simply do not know what you're talking about, yet that doesn't stop you from talking. Only you could confidently discuss a topic without knowing one of the most basic facts of said topic. Beyond pathetic. Anyone that can look at the above short (and not not extensive list) of achievements in big games and claim that the player in question does not perform in big games is biased and, to repeat again, someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
You are wrong again... And of course, your mistake is a typical theme with CR7 fans, who typically seem to think that CR7 is the universal measure for everything that's "cream top" about every and any era. Atletico Madrid / Deportivo Coruna / Valencia: 1990/91 (2) / (Division B) / (7) 1991/92 (3) / (17) / (4) 1992/93 (6) / (3) / (4) 1993/94 (12) / (2) / (7) 1994/95 (14) / (2) / (10) 1995/96 (1) / (9) / (2) 1996/97 (5) / (3) / (10) 1997/98 (7) / (12) / (9) 1998/99 (13) / (6) / (4) 1999/00 (19 - relegated) / (1) / (3) 2000/01 (Division B) / (2) / (5) 2001/02 (Division B) / (2) / (1) 2002/03 (12) / (3) / (5) 2003/04 (7) / (3) / (1) 2004/05 (11) / (8) / (7) 2005/06 (10) / (8) / (3) 2006/07 (7) / (13) / (4) Between 1990 and 2007, Atletico Madrid was relatively mediocre 8 out of 17 seasons: when did their "cream" rise to the top? Deportivo Coruna was better than Atletico Madrid 12 out of 12 seasons: when did their "cream" became inherently lesser than Atletico Madrid's? You do understand that 1990 to 2007 is a ridiculously long spell for the "traditional rivals" or "the cream that will always rise to the top" to not prove itself? You do understand that 17 years of being relatively mediocre or inferior (to the likes of Deportivo Coruna or Valencia), is the type of incremental knowledge or measure that would make Atletico Madrid no more "traditional" than the likes of Deportivo Coruna or Valencia? This should be simple to understand: to say that 1990 to 2007 is just "every now and then" is just ludicrous. Atletico Madrid was inferior for about 15 years. That's not "every now and then." The average "prime time" of generational great players (or all time great players for that matter) is 4 to 6 years at the top, so those 15 years of Atletico Madrid being relatively mediocre, represent a lot of careers of a lot of players, including Laudrup, Stoichkov, Romario, pre-injury R9, Figo, Rivaldo, Raul, Zidane, post-injury R9, Ronaldinho, Riquelme, young Messi, prime Xavi, a lot of Iniesta's better years, Cristiano Ronaldo in his 2009-2012 days, etc. I don't think it's rational at all, to say that all those players somehow benefited because "every now and then" (code for: 15 to 17 years) Atletico Madrid, one of the traditional teams, is weak, therefore bizarrely making said era an "easier" era for the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona -- which makes no sense when you actually look at the plainly evident facts.
The above quote is disingenuous, and therefore representative of your quality as both a person and as an analyst of the sport. I did know that Real Madrid had won La Liga 2011/12, but at the same time, it's one detail that I did forget given the fact that (1) it's utterly insignificant with regards to my specific criticism against CR7, and (2) given the fact that Atletico Madrid has in fact won the same exact amount of Liga titles as CR7. Said mistake was a bit embarrassing, but neither proves nor disproves anything substantial about my overall opinion about CR7, which is not based on trophies won, but rather on CR7's lack of top performances against the top tier Champions League teams. Overall: the 2011/12 Liga was a team achievement, it was not a solo concert by CR7. Real Madrid won the 2014 Copa del Rey Final (vs. Barcelona) without CR7, and lost the 2013 Copa del Rey Final (vs. Atletico Madrid) with CR7. Real Madrid won the Champions League Final in 2014 and again in 2016: CR7 was a total non-factor in both finals. Portugal won the Euro Final without CR7, and lost a Euro Final with CR7. I cannot think of another legendary player who won that many trophies without doing anything note-worthy (or at all) in the Finals for those trophies. The 2011/12 Liga therefore does not change my overall very well educated opinion about CR7. In 2008, CR7 scored a goal and then failed to score a Penalty Kick: his overall performance was nothing special at all. Not to mention, that if Terry scores Chelsea's winner from the PK spot -- what would be the perception of CR7's performance in that final? In 2009, destroying Arsenal doesn't say a lot, if anything. Why the personal insults?? The true sign of a person who lost the plot and can't help but to resort to personal insults e.g. "Milan05 is such an objective and rational person, but he has been fooled by the anti-CR7 propagandist - only that could explain his incorrect opinion about Ronaldo." Or my personal favorite, "you are just pathetic, in fact, beyond pathetic. You have no clue lol." Cristiano Ronaldo fans are such a classless bunch. NOTE: In truth, CR7’s form in the La Liga Clasico is nothing out of the ordinary, and history, whilst crucial to this argument, is not even all that necessary to establish the following fact: in the post-Guardiola era, Benzema has scored 6 goals and 2 assists in the Liga Clasico, his 2 assists were assists for CR7. Meanwhile, in the post-Guardiola era, CR7 has scored 4 open-play goals (2 out of the 4 open-play goals assisted by Benzema), and 2 Penalty Kicks. In other words: CR7 scored 2 open-play goals not assisted by Benzema, 2 open-play goals assisted by Benzema, and 2 PK goals not created by himself, and there you have CR7’s 6 goals out of 8 games. Put differently: if Benzema scores the PK goals (instead of CR7), Benzema would’ve had 5 open-play goals none of which was assisted by CR7, added to 2 PK goals, added to 2 assists for 2 out of the 4 open-play goals scored by CR7, and that would be equal to 7 goals & 2 assists out of 8 clasico games, which is in fact better than CR7’s post-Guardiola Liga record in the Liga Clasico. It is a fact that in the La Liga clasico, there is no real statistical difference between CR7 and Benzema, beyond the fact that CR7 gets all the penalty-kicks and all the free-kicks and also the majority of the service be that from open-play or from set-pieces. Is Benzema better than Raul Gonzalez? I ask that question, because in terms of Clasico performances at league level (i.e. La Liga Clasico), Benzema offers better open-play numbers than CR7, and many fans would argue that Raul Gonzalez was a better player than Benzema; so we can begin to shape a picture here of how Raul’s numbers would look if he played for Real Madrid 2012-16, or for that matter Real Madrid 2009-12. And this becomes all the more damning when you look into the actual Guardiola era, and see that Benzema again scored the same amount of open-play goals as CR7 (playing much less minutes than CR7), except that CR7 again inflated his stats with one PK goal. With Cristiano Ronaldo we get the following numbers in terms of the La Liga Clasico: Real Madrid won 4 points in 01-02, 2 points in 02-03, 3 points in 03-04, 3 points in 04-05, 1 point in 05-06, 4 points in 06-07, 6 points in 07-08, zero points in 08-09, zero points in 09-10 (with CR7), 1 point in 10-11 (with CR7), 3 points in 11-12 (with CR7), 4 points in 12-13 (CR7 was a big factor with 2 goals in the first clasico: a draw, by the way. But CR7 was a large non-factor in the second clasico, playing only 33 minutes, and neither scoring nor assisting any of the goals: Real Madrid won this game), zero points in 13-14 (with CR7), 3 points in 14-15 (with CR7), and 3 points in 15-16 (with CR7). In other words: points-wise, Real Madrid with CR7 was average vs. Barcelona. In fact, Real Madrid’s best league result between 2009 and 2016, came in season 2012/13, the result of a game where CR7 played only 33 minutes, without scoring and also without assisting a single goal. That was Real Madrid’s best Liga result vs. Barcelona, in all the years CR7 has played La Liga.
Not going to read any of this. You are not worth having discussions with as you have no intention of learning new things/exploring alternative view points. Undoubtedly the worst poster I've come across on this forum, and to @BocaFan's point, I don't intend on diverting the intended discussion of this thread any further. Keep talking about things you have no clue about, it's what you do best.
The above quote is disingenuous, and therefore representative of your quality as both a person and as an analyst of the sport. I did know that Real Madrid had won La Liga 2011/12, but at the same time, it's one detail that I did forget given the fact that (1) it's utterly insignificant with regards to my specific criticism against CR7, and (2) given the fact that Atletico Madrid has in fact won the same exact amount of Liga titles as CR7. Forgetting facts that you do not consider at all relevant, is entirely excusable and understandable: which is why the mistake was made in the first place. Overall: the mistake was a bit embarrassing (and for the wrong reasons), but neither proves nor disproves anything substantial about my overall opinion about CR7, which is not based on trophies won, but rather on CR7's lack of top performances against the top tier Champions League teams (in a Champions League era). In conclusion: the 2011/12 Liga was a team achievement, it was not a solo concert by CR7. Real Madrid won the 2014 Copa del Rey Final (vs. Barcelona) without CR7, and lost the 2013 Copa del Rey Final (vs. Atletico Madrid) with CR7. Real Madrid won the Champions League Final in 2014 and again in 2016: CR7 was a total non-factor in both finals. Portugal won the Euro Final without CR7, and lost a Euro Final with CR7. I just cannot think of another legendary player who won that many trophies without doing anything note-worthy (or at all) in the Finals for those trophies. The 2011/12 Liga therefore is woefully irrelevant and even off-topic, within the context of my specific argument. The 2011/12 Liga therefore does not change my overall very well educated opinion about CR7. Your insistence that the 2011/12 Liga somehow totally refutes my entire argument, is bizarre. Cristiano Ronaldo's lack of Liga titles never was, and never will be, a consistent aspect of my arguments against Cristiano Ronaldo. Your insistence that it should be a consistent aspect of my arguments, because you just think so, is simply a disingenuous strawman argument.
So you just wanted to divert this thread but only for a little bit, only to go away when a more competent analyst than you was about to own your sorry ass? Typical. Please do go away you disingenuous unfunny twat. NOTE: And as for learning new things... Do you mean new things such as: "Person X is rational and objective only when said person agrees with Benficafan3." Compared to my personal favorite: "Person X is objective but has been deceived by propagandists, when said person disagrees with Benficafan." That's some great learning you can be credited with.
It really isn't. It's quite simply really, there's a topic being discussed. You don't know the basic facts pertaining to said topic. Thus you don't know (per usual) what you're talking about. To have the gall to claim that your opinion is worth considering on CR7 when you didn't know that CR7 won La Liga is a case study in itself. With the above said, my apologies to @BocaFan for diverting from the topic once again. my last post on this topic.
Diverting the topic once again, and once again, to make yet another disingenuous point. Yes, I do know the basic facts pertaining to said topic. Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. Yes, a lot of objective posters do happen to agree with the basic self-evident truths about CR7. And no, your strawman argument whereby you insist on using the 2011/12 La Liga as proof that I have no idea about the subject does not actually refutes ANY of my actually essential points. Your bizarre insistence that CR7 winning La Liga 2011/12 somehow disproves my argument about how CR7 repeatedly goes missing in the Champions League Semi Finals, is the typical non-logic that is used by desperate CR7 fans who have no arguments and desperately cling to non-logic. My argument has almost nothing to do with La Liga nor with league football overall: I've always described both CR7 and Ibrahimovic as great league players. My argument is about the Champions League value of a legendary player who played in a Champions League era: this has always been self-evident in any and every single one of my arguments against CR7. No intelligent person would fail to see your obvious dishonesty and hypocrisy here. Again: the 2011/12 Liga has close to no relevance at all with regards to my arguments against CR7. I have consistently stated that CR7 is an amazing Liga player (that's my opinion at least, and one I've voiced many times over), so why would I then use CR7's lack of Liga titles as a consistent argument against him? It makes no sense. Maybe I mentioned something tongue-in-cheek, but La Liga has never been an aspect of my argument against CR7. In fact, that's why such a glaring mistake was made in the first place - I don't consider it a relevant factor in terms of CR7's value as an individual; Real Madrid winning as many Liga titles as Atletico Madrid over the past 7 years, is in my opinion not a good measure of how great CR7 arguably is or isn't as an individual. How is any of that actually lost on you? Your insistence that La Liga 2011/12 somehow disproves my argument is, again, irrational and disingenuous, which is exactly what I've come to expect from you. No please go away and stop diverting this thread with your vile hatred for all things that you perceive as anti-CR7.