In one instance you state that Dybala's 15/16 CL was "probably better than any season Benzema played in CL" and then go on to suggest that Benzema should be judged because of his team's success when comparing him to Higuain. Last year in 5 CL appearances, Dybala registered 14 chances created, 0 assists, 1 goal. These are good numbers for a player in his first season in CL but hardly super impressive. Yet, by your standards this was better than anything Benzema has been able to produce while playing for Real through his prime. Despite this, you then go on to discuss how it would be preposterous to compare Higuain to Benzema despite Higuain's greater contribution over his career for club and country. Even Real Madrid supporters are greatly divided over this issue given that Benzema has been far from consistent during his time at Real often failing to impress in big matches. He has also been hampered by injuries. Moreover, it's more likely that Benzema's large transfer fee, not the Frenchmen's performances, forced Real to ultimately make him their exclusive #9 over Higuain. In their four shared La Liga seasons between 2009-2013 Benzema: 79 starts 55 goals 26 assists Higuain: 81 starts 75 goals 23 assists He went to Napoli because he became one of Serie A's highest earners for a team in the CL (replacing Cavani), who paid what at the time was a big transfer free, on a club that has a massive connection to Maradona. Higuain was on the short list for 2016.
that was obviously an error. I wanted to say Higuain. i thought it would have been clear given the context of the discussion. Higuain great contribution to NT??? I agree with you that benzema is not as consistent as a lewandowski or suarez, hence why on a lower caliber but no way in hell is higuain known for stepping up when it matters I'll try to sum this up quickly. higuain is a big fish in a small pond. Benzema won CL twice as a starter 14, 16. Higuain, no CL despite playing on high caliber team in 11, 12. Higuain goes to Napoli, no CL or League titles. Benzema stays on Madrid, wins titles. it was more like Cavani went to a higher caliber team that paid him more money
Being an Argentine Italian, believe me I know that Higuain has played in poor finals. He is one of Argentina's leading scorers going into them and throughout qualification. Benzema has been pushed out by a French team that went to the final of the Euros without him. You are for whatever reason attributing or at least overemphasizing Benzema's success onto Real team winning. Benzema has been good to very good at times for Real, but that team has world class players all over the pitch. In that sense it's easier to perform in that environment. Higuain carried Napoli and is carrying over that success to Juventus. The point of comparison would have been what would have happened if Benzema was sold instead of Higuain. Given that Benzema hasn't greatly contributed to finals either, my guess is that Higuain would have been able to replicate what the Frenchman did. Higuain did not win the CL in 2011 or 2012, you are right. Neither did Benzema since he was on those very same teams. Look we have history of these two players on the same team at the same time. Unless you think their statistical output lies, Higuain simply had better numbers while playing for the same team at the same time. Higuain is one of Argentina's highest scoring players. This continued at Napoli and he is now doing this for Juve. Remember the original question that started this debate. If Juve win the CL (big IF), the assumption is that Higuain will have had to make a big contribution as he already has. As for Benzema, show me one analysis of the best forward in Europe that has him in the top 3. Show me one analysis that suggests that Higuain isn't on his level at the very least. Otherwise you are just stating your opinion with little basis beyond the fact that Benzema has been on Real for his entire prime which resulted in winning the CL twice. I'm guessing that Ronaldo, Bale, Ramos, Di Maria, Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Pepe etc had much more to do with that than Benzema.
if anything, the fact that France couldn't win the tournament at home against a poor Portugal side only helps Benzema's case. I do think Higuain has done more than Benzema at the NT level but not enough for me to say that Higuain is a difference maker for Argentina, but benzema is also not playing next to a player named lionel messi. lionel messi has provided higuain with tons of assists. which distributor does france have? I'm not overstating anything. I clearly said that Benzema was inconsistent, hence, he is not in the same category as forwards as lewandowski and suarez. and why shouldn't i give Benzema credit for being a starter on a team that won 2 champions leagues? do you remember the final against Atletico in 2016? Benzema played excellent and was clearly better than Ronaldo. If anything, ronaldo was the worst attacker for real madrid without question. Higuain was a big fish in a small pond at napoli. to put it more in perspective, I'm sure a player like Neymar would look like a god against men if he played at napoli. but the fact is that he is playing amongst players like messi and suarez, so naturally he will not stand out as much. just as benzema is playing with 2 of the greatest players in the world with bale and ronaldo. outside of goals, benzema clearly plays on a level above higuain when it comes to playmaking and connecting with other players. and when it comes to it, i just don't see higuain adding any value in tight games if he does not score. of course, higuain has to make a big contribution if the team wins as he is virtually the only striker in the formation. they rely heavily on him. the question is if it is enough to win the World Player of The Year, which i highly doubt it. of course, there were also a years in which players that were not necessarily the best did have exceptional years and ended up winning either the ballon d'or or the world player of the year, so it is possible. And why would you single benzema out? look at some of the goals and counter attacks that real madrid have been involved in against Bayern Munich in 2014 when they won the Champions League in both matches. in any case, i'm NOT saying that i am correct and that higuain couldn't win a ballon d'or if you juventus win. it's just that i am giving my opinion based on the current information that i have seen and in the specific way that i interpret it. perhaps you are correct and he does end up winning the individual award.
Benzema deserves credit for being part of a Real side that one the CL. The question that is difficult to answer is would Higuaín been able to do the same. Nothing leads me to believe that he wouldn't have won the CL on a team that featured so many world class players as you mention. He deserves mentioning, but I'd bet Real Madrid fanatics would attribute more of their success to Ronaldo, their immense midfield, and defense before Benzema. It's easy to see that lately the Balon has been usually won by the CL winnings side's most prolific scorer. If Juve win the CL, Higuaín will be that player unless Mandzukic or Dybala can either overtake him (unlikely) or score hugely important CL winning goals (more likely). In Allegri's 4-2-3-1, they will get a chance. As for Higuaín being a small fish, you can really only say this about his 4 years at Napoli given that he has spent the bulk of his career playing for Real, Argentina, and now will likely close out his prime at Juve. Real and Juve are two massively historic clubs while Argentina are Argentina. Anyways, I respect your opinion that you think Benzema is beyond Higuaín. I was just a bit surprised by it given that even a few Real fans think otherwise. Moreover, I rarely see Benzema mentioned as a top tier forward while Higuaín is often in the conversation. Strikers are expected to score and Higuaín has done that at a higher rate than Benzema whether at Real together, for their NT, or their current clubs.
again, i'm not saying that higuain won't win it because like you say it would be virtually impossible for anyone else to score more goals though it is possible to come up with more impactful matches or goals, like you also stated. you may be right, maybe real madrid still would have won 2 champions league's with higuain instead of benzema. but at this point it's just all speculation. would've, should've, could've. higuain went to the semifinals twice 2011, 2012 and was blamed for real madrid not beating lyon in the CL in 2010 because of his selfish decision making the reason i said higuain was a big fish in a small pond is because, you hear so many people talking about how amazing higuain is and how he is putting Napoli on his back when he couldn't even secure the #9 postion against Benzema. and when he did play for real madrid, the talk of the important or key player was never pointed towards higuain and neither is pointed towards benzema. if you look at pure goals, then of course there is a case to compare. but for me, soccer is much more than that when comparing players such as looking at how players perform in big matches and what they contribute to the team outside of goals. therefore if both players score a similar amount of goals, then what else do they contribute? and for me, in terms of connecting with his teammates and playmaking abilities, i put Benzema far above Higuain. to conclude this argument, i am very aware that i could be very wrong and you could be very right. i am only going off of what i see and how i interpret what i see. so if juventus wins, maybe higuain would at least be in the top 3 for the WPY award.
I don't understand what is being said in the video, but translating the title, it says that: "Gian puts CR7 above Phenomenon and Ronaldinho Gaucho" I don't really see how that is a controversial statement. Cristiano has definitely surpassed both of them by this point. He's now got an international trophy to show for it, and his club career is clearly greater overall than either R9 or R10.
Trophies are a very poor measure for assessing footballers or any team sport for that matter. It just doesn't work well, for a variety of reasons. It never worked like that either.
Based on history the more likely scenario is that, if Juve win CL, someone other than Higuain will step-up and be the hero. At which point that player probably becomes a better candidate for Ballon d’Or 2017 (or at least causes voters to split their vote among multiple Juve players resulting in none of them winning).
People who judge players based on what they could have been rather than what they actually were is arguably an even worse way to judge footballers. And that's the basis which is used to justify why R9 should be considered better than CR7 nowadays.
The original point was based on three assumptions. 1. Juve have to win CL (big if) 2. Higuain finishes as by far the top scorer in all comps (he has more goals than Dybala and Mandzu combined.). 3. In order for Juve to win CL, Higuain would have to score important goals unless someone else steps up. These assumptions can be made for any candidate for Balon. Usually their teams needs to win CL, they need to be a top scorer, or contributed important goals.
The tricky thing with CR7 is that he was average in all the Semi Finals and Finals that Real Madrid won. So you're giving him credit for his teammates doing well, which is arguably even worse than anything you can attribute to R9. Contextually, R9 was significantly better at 20 to 22 years of age, R9 2002-03 was as good as any Real Madrid version of CR7, etc. In the end, CR7's best argument against R9, is CR7's superior longevity and consistency in an era in which longevity-and-consistency are definitely easier qualities to achieve. For example, Ibrahimovic is now 35 years old and still playing at an elite player in one of the Top 2 leagues in the world. I don't think it would've been possible for a 35 year old Ibrahimovic to do that, had 35 year old Ibrahimovic played at any point in 1996-2006. Just another reason, out of many, as to why it's so difficult to compare players from different eras i.e. if longevity, consistency, and THEREFORE trophies, are THAT important to you... Then you are exactly the type of fan who will say that the next CR7 is much better than CR7 himself, because the next CR7 will probably have more longevity, more consistency, and more trophies, all of which will be the result of the next era itself, and not the result of the next CR7 being that much better (if at all) than CR7 himself.
There's a bit of hyperbole to the above sentiment, but you get the point... Basically, saying that CR7's career is better than R9's and Ronaldinho's combined careers, is just so wrong, on so many levels.
i agree with @Milan05 and you, (@leadleader). CR7 is clearly above Ronaldinho and R9 as @Milan05 stated, and I'll be the first to tell you that if you look at primes, R9 and Ronaldinho would be ahead in my opinion, but CR7 is not too far as primes are concerned. and even that is a debatable topic. CR7 from 2006-2012 was a f*#king ridiculously consistent machine performing at a ridiculously high level not just in terms of goals but in terms of performances. you can say that his performances went dramatically downhill from 2013-2017. and even saying that, he has remained on the top of the scoring charts. regardless of what we think of him, (and i don't rate his 2013-2017 years at an elite level by all time greats) that's ridiculous. for someone to have a standard so high that scoring 40, 50 goals is not enough, is a testament to CR7s expectations. having said that, i truly rate CR7s greatness from 2006-2012/13, and the years after that are sub par if you ask me. i agree with you that grading CR7 on trophies, etc. is ridiculous as he should be rated on level of performances. why should a player that played remarkable be rated lower than a player who was sub par because he was on a TEAM that was able to carry a large weight of the burden hardly depending on a specific player. i do not agree that the EPL is a top 2 league in the world but rather the 3rd best league. based on european tournaments germany ans spain have a legitimate reason to be played ahead of england in the last number of years. i understand england is a game that appeals to many people in terms of style and this leads to biases in terms of ranking. i also think this is similar when people try to put Zidane as an all time top 3/5 player because of his style as opposed to judging him on his efficiency.
i think that people were only comparing the titles won by CR7 in relation to trophies at club level, not the actual careers.
Yes, R9 was better than CR7 when both were 20-22 years of age. However, Fabregas was better than Xavi at the age of 20; yet Fabregas never really improved at the same rate and never reached the heights Xavi did from 2008-2012. Some players just develop at different rates than others. CR7 scored twice as many goals in 2011/12 as R9 did in 2002/03, so the claim that R9's 2002/03 was as good as any Real Madrid season by CR7 is also very questionable. This is a myth. Cristiano's 2007/08 season when he was just 22/23 was easily as good as any individual season from R9, and better than any individual season from R10. Kaka's prime was as good as Ronaldinho's prime.
The best version of Ronaldo was the one at PSV, then Barca, and imo probably one and half season at Inter. With exception of that goal vs. Netherlands imo Ronaldo did not live up to expectations during that tournament. I remember the anticipation from the fans before the opening game of Brasil vs. Scotland. Every media house, newspapers, etc. expected to see magic from Ronaldo and imo he didn't just fall short, but was nowhere near the player people expected. There were glimpses of explosiveness but in all honestly that sort of performance will never get any hype unless the player in question is Ronaldo. He then had a comeback in 2002 WC which again imo Rivaldo looked more impressive but since his recovery was sort of miraculous his legend grew. Madrid version was imo just good, definitely not very good, and far away from being excellent. Yes every now and then there were glimpses of greatness (e.g. ManU) but those moments were far in between to elevate his status. Now as far as I know there was definitely nothing great about his 2002-03 season unless if scoring 20% goals against very poor Alaves in the league is considered great just because the scorer was Ronaldo. When you take into consideration that this was in a period when traditional rival like Barca (6th) and Atletico (12th) were struggling surely scoring 23 goals as a main striker is not phenomenal. I know some might want to argue that he was contributing in many other ways which I call bs. This is because at that time the likes of Figo, Zidane, and Raul were actually contributing more to Madrid compared to later years. To be honest I struggle to see any of Ronaldo's season at Madrid that is greater than any of CR7's season excluding this current season. Ronaldinho's legendary season was discussed and to this date I've yet to see how that season got elevated to such crazy heights.
Dude, who was scoring as much as CR7 or Messi at any point pre-2007? Furthermore: R9 2002/03 was crucial vs. Manchester United (at the time one of the Top 3 teams in the world) and again vs. Juventus (at the time one of the Top 3 teams in the world). CR7 in his time with Real Madrid has typically failed to impress against the top tier teams in the Champions League. When was the last time that CR7 produced what R9 produced vs. Manchester United (3 goals from open-play, playing in Manchester's home)? CR7 played vs. Barcelona 2010/11, vs. Bayern Munich 2011/12, vs. Borussia Dortmund 2012/13, vs. Juventus 2014/15, vs. PSG 2015/16 -- when did CR7 stamped his authority against the top tier teams of the champions league, the way that R9 definitely did against Manchester United 2002/03 and then again vs. Juventus 2002/03? In one season R9 did what CR7 has failed to do in 7 years with Real Madrid... Overall: context matters, and when you analyze the context, R9 2002/03 was arguably every bit as great as CR7 ever has been at Real Madrid. Even if you disagree with the claim, the claim itself is not "very questionable" at all.
In those years, both Deportivo Coruna and Valencia, had been better than Atletico Madrid - and for several seasons at that. For example, Atletico Madrid was 13th place in season 1998/1999, was relegated in season 1999/2000, was absent in season 2000/2001, was absent again in 2001/2002, and was 12th place in season 2002/2003. Atletico Madrid's absence or mediocrity (in those years) did not make La Liga an easy tournament neither for Real Madrid nor for Barcelona. Real Madrid won La Liga in 1997, 2001, and 2003. Barcelona won La Liga in 1998 and 1999. Deportivo Coruna won La Liga in 2000. Valencia won La Liga in 2002 and 2004. How was La Liga 2002/2003 an easy tournament (for Real Madrid) when in those years, Real Madrid won 3 Ligas, Barcelona won 2 Ligas, Valencia won 2 Ligas, and Deportivo Coruna won one Liga?? And as for R9 - he struggled with injury, played in the same team as another prolific scorer (Raul), was crucial against Manchester United and again vs. Juventus, etc. Contextually-speaking, R9 2002/03 was a great season, and arguably comparable to any one of CR7's seasons with Real Madrid.
Cristiano has never been a big game performer, I'd agree on that. It's arguably one of his weaknesses as a player, not as much as Zlatan, but his level still drops notably whenever he faces a really strong team. With that being said, Cristiano could have retired at the end of his Manchester United career instead of joined Madrid, and I would have already considered him on par with Ronaldinho and not far of Ronaldo. His 2007-08 season was already just as good as any season by either Brazilians (or better actually).
Ludicrous statement. He's the player with the most semi-final goals in the CL/EC history (and knockout stages overall IIRC), has scored a decisive goal in a CL final, scored the game winning goal in the Camp Nou late in the 2011-2012 when Real won La Liga, scored the first goal in both Euro semi-finals which led to Portugal's ONLY appearances in a major competition final, (2004 & 2016), was the best player on the field (at the very least the best Portuguese player) against France in the World Cup semi-final in 2006 etc. I could go on but to even state that someone whose achieved the above feats is "not a big game performer" is beyond absurd and frankly, pretty laughable.
a bit of fact checking wouldn't hurt once in a while, cr7 isn't just a big game performer but hes inarguably the biggest game performer of his generation the real Madrid version of cr7 will be remembered first and foremost for his legendary goal exploits and how best to judge all time goal scorer then by goal scoring records he holds in so called big matches since 2009/10(his debut season for los blancos) he has scored the most goals in el classico:16 goals in 25 games the most away goals in la liga the most ko goals in champions league history the most goals in champions league semi final history the most goals in champions quarter final history the most assists in champions ko stage history for real Madrid alone he has scored 4 goals+1 assist in 4 games against Bayern munich 5 goals + 1 assist in 4 games against juventus 18 goals and 8 assists in 26 games against atletico Madrid etc and just to add briefly as I think ive covered this already 09/10 cr7 was a far more effective dribbler/showman than any r9 version in real Madrid in addition to having far greater end product 02/03 r9 30 goals in 44 games 09/10 cr7 33 goals in 35 games missing nearly 3 months of the season through injury and 2 red card suspensions note; I also completely disagree that early 2000s Manchester united was a genuine European heavyweight great domestically no doubt but consistent underacheivers in the CL the treble winning side of 1999 and Manchester united 2007-2009 were the only truly great sides under SAF and please lets not hype r9 vs united more than already has been for example why has lewandowski 4 goals vs real Madrid 2013 asprilla hattrick vs Barcelona 97/98 and im sure there are a few more examples of lesser players who performed at the same level as r9 did against united but never received the same publicity for obvious reasons @leadleader if 02/03 r9 was so great why did he finish 11th in the bd[2003] behind bechkam,van nistelrooy,nedved and what you have repeatedly called a overrated zidane http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy03.html real Madrid version of cr7 09-14 was a all time forward denying this fact is simply ridiculous
It's an absolute shame that posters like @Milan05, who seemingly try to be as objective as possible, are strayed from the truth by anti-CR7 propaganda from the likes of @leadleader. The worst part is that it's just an extremely terrible argument that cannot be backed up with facts. You cannot argue that a player, with the feats referenced above in my previous post and @carlito86's, is not a big-time player. To do so means you are literally arguing against reality. Boggles the mind.