Real Madrid has -- for years -- sacrificed all of their forwards so that CR7 could score as many goals as he did. Now CR7 is threatening to leave Real Madrid, right after Real Madrid won their 3rd almost-consecutive Champions League. Ronaldo and Real Madrid really are a match made in heaven, that is, if heaven consisted of selfish celebrities with no sense of self-awareness and also no sense of solidarity. This is a fine example of Plato's cave, the cave being Real Madrid's unique system that protected and catered for Ronaldo, to an unparalleled/unprecedented degree. And the subject being Ronaldo, who has lived in that cave for so long, that he actually believes that at 32-33 years of age he can 'threaten' a club that could easily win the Champions League without him. If Real Madrid has any sense of self-respect, they should totally sell the ungrateful diva that CR7 has proved to be too many times to continue to forgive/ignore. A price of 80-100 million euros for a striker who will soon be 33 years old, would definitely be great business for Real Madrid - they could use that to buy a player with an actual future.
I am not even sure what you are complaining about? If I claim a player spends most of his time around specific area of the pitch, heat map will either agree or disagree with me, it is as simple as that. I am not sure where you got this interpretation of the heat map as it sounds different to what I understand. Anyway do you think it is objective to take someone's word over the evidence provided by an objective software! With this sort of thinking I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future you'll start arguing with goal line technology especially if it were to involve CR7's goal. I'm certain you'll find a way to write paragraphs explaining why it is actually wrong/right. Btw below is what heat map actually reveals before you start misleading people. "The map gets heated up in areas where the player has had more control of the ball and does most of his work, i.e it turns Redder as the player's presence in a particular area increases"
Yes, without that unique Real Madrid system, Ronaldo would be the weak washed up player that's only scored 18 goals in 16 appearances for Portugal since the start of 2016 while leading them to the first major trophy in the history of their nation.
Check the two passes of Ronaldo Nazario from the same game, that I posted here - https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ne...r-lm10-and-when.2015852/page-56#post-35549082 Those two were made from just within the center circle and from deep on the left wing respectively. But that doesn't mean Ronaldo Nazario was playing as a midfielder in that game.
A map has a specific and explicit objective purpose. A 'heat map' also has a specific and explicit objective pupose. I had no intention of 'misleading' people about a heat map. On the other hand, a heat map does not prove Estel's opinion. A heat map would define Andrea Pirlo (in his prime) and Claude Makelele (in his prime) as more or less identical players position-wise. But what a heat map cannot demonstrate, is that Pirlo was definitely a very different player to Claude Makelele. Bottom line: the role that the player plays in his team, is defined by the function of the player, not by the 'heated areas' in a map. Estel's argument is dishonest, manipulative, and worst of all, a flaccid argument that only CR7 fans are dumb/biased enough to not see for what it really is. Estel's opinion is not really about 'heated areas' as much as it is about the function that the player plays in the team. If the heat map actually measured the actual function, we would have to agree that Gerd Muller and Lio Messi play more or less the same role, because the heat map would indicate that Messi is just a 'withdrawn' version of Gerd Muller. But obviously, what the map does not indicate with any sense of consistency, is the fact that Messi is a dribbler and a passer of world class ability, whereas Muller was a pure poacher. Estel's opinion is that Messi essentially is a withdrawn version of Muller. Estel's opinion is irrational. The above quote makes absolutely no sense, and is representative of the general lack of intelligence that CR7 fans put behind their thoughts.
You mean Portugal, the team that won the Euro Final without Ronaldo?? Or do you mean Pepe, who was more of a 'leader' for Portugal 2016 than Ronaldo has ever been for any Portugal team??
Absolute nonsense. Your insanity has just gone up the notch but at least there are some people who think you make sense.
are you really gonna play this game? we all damn know that messi plays a deep role regularly, something that R9 never did. R9 is widely regarded as a number 9, every single point in his career. there are also instances were patrick viera scored goals in the same positions as thierry henry, but we know damn well that viera did not play center forward. messi has shown countless moments in single games such as vs. real madrid this season that he plays a role as an attacking midfielder. this is just non sense.
I mean Ronaldo who came through with 2 goals and an assist vs. Poland when his team needed 3 goals to make the group stage, who assisted the game winner against Croatia in the R16, and who had a goal and an assist to push his team past Wales in the semifinal. I mean Ronaldo who's led his team to 5 wins in the 5 World Cup qualifiers he's played for his team by scoring 11 goals whose team lost the one qualifier he missed due to injury. I'm sure you'll find some flimsy excuse to handwave this away too though since you obviously hate Ronaldo and the more he succeeds, the more you desperately try to tear him down. For the record, you love to bring up that he got hurt in the Euro final and Portugal still won, but even his performance in the final where he left after a few minutes with an injury is better than Messi's done in any of his international finals as his ball dominance and choking actively prevent his team from scoring whereas if he'd just go to the bench, one of the many fine substitutes on the Argentine team could have won them a trophy like Eder did for Portugal.
Well I suppose we are done now. Once compelling arguments like "we all damn know" start being used to reliably label any evidence put forward as "just non sense", it is pretty clear that continuing the discussion is pointless. Personally, I'd have preferred if you actually tried and explained why the average touch position of Messi was so far forward, for an attacking midfielder, in those games vs Atletico and Leganes from 2017 for which I had posted those Opta graphics. Or why Messi, as an attacking midfielder, got to take almost double the shots on goal (a number that is closest to the CRonaldo that Messi fans label as a poacher), as compared to the players who actually played as forwards/strikers in Messi's club team, as per your insistence. Since something surely doesn't add up there.
performance of cr7 playing as an actual playmaker creating several chances either through long balls, crosses and even a great assist with his head 2:29-2:40~(a great long ball pass by any standards) if you ask the majority of big soccer experts if cr7 could deliver similar passes to the ones played by r9 above they would probably think your taking them for a ride (c.ronaldo also has several performances in 2006/07 where effectively he was either his teams first or 2nd playmaker after paul scholes) not meaning to detract anything from r9 his overall level in 1997 was clearly one of the highest of all time
let`s be honest, R9 never played the same role that Messi has played for the last few years. if you want to argue that Messi was not an attacking midfielder then that is fine and it makes sense. but don`t bring up clips of R9 and try to bring him into this conversation with messi and the attacking midfielder position when no one in the world would even acknowledge that in some form or way R9 played as an attacking midfielder. c`mon bro
97/98 r9 was definately not your conventional striker (ie alan shearer in blackburn,luis suarez,lewandowski,batistuta etc) he arguably revolutionized his role with his direct runs from the half way line,great inter play with teammates and a extremely underrated eye for a pass there is a match comp that i will post when i find it of r9 pulling of a magificent through ball from the half way line putting it on a gold platter for romario to finish but he missed(how unfortunate as it wouldve rivalled any assist made by lionel messi in his career)
Estel's entire rhetoric is such a needless exploitation of semantics, e.g., playmaker midfielder, withdrawn forward, withdrawn striker, etc. Funny how Messi gets defined as a withdrawn striker, but then Zidane does not get defined as a deep-lying forward - I mean, using Estel's thought process, you could well argue that Zidane was just a deep-lying forward, given the fact that Zidane didn't add to the defensive pressing in the midfield and also didn't dictated the tempo in the midfield. Messi, be that as a 'playmaker forward' or as an 'attacking midfielder' or as a 'withdrawn striker' (semantics are rather futile, when reality itself is self-evidently obvious), plays a role that OBVIOUSLY limits the total of goals he can score (compared to a poacher like CR7 who mostly roams in and around the box). Estel is wrong and as usual won't admit it, pure and simple.
It is 'absolute nonsense' and 'insanity' to understand what a heat map actually does?? What a complete consummate moron you are. Not that that's anything new to me, mind you. Heat maps would define Claude Makelele and Andrea Pirlo as virtually identical players. Heat maps are 'objective' in a very limited sense. Heat maps CANNOT prove that Messi is a not a playmaker, because the art of 'playmaking' is not limited to specific areas of the pitch. In other words: a map would define Gerd Muller and R9 as virtually identical players, when in fact those two players couldn't be any more different. What part of the above is 'absolute nonsense', and how does a 'heat map' in and of itself (without additional statistical data) define what a 'playmaker' is or isn't?? In fact, what exactly is the 'objective' rule that defines what 'playmaking' is or isn't??
Lots of praise for CR7 lately. Pelé: "The best player, the best scorer, the best forward is Cristiano Ronaldo." Maradona: "Cristiano is an animal, I wish he was from Argentina"
So the Confederations Cup is now 'evidence' that R9 was capable of passing ability that could rival any assist made by Messi in his entire career, which demonstrates that R9 could pass the ball against inferior opponents in a 2nd rate competition, but other than that, what exactly does it prove or demonstrate?? Case in point: I've seen Henrik Larsson score header goals -- several of them in fact -- that could rival the best header goals by Cristiano Ronaldo... But what exactly does my opinion demonstrate or prove, other than the fact that lesser overall players or players with lesser ability at a specific ability, can in fact occasionally produce header goals and/or assists that could rival the best of the best??
My questions for Maradona are as follows: If Ronaldo was from Argentina - would Argentina magically become good enough to win the Copa America Final without Ronaldo?? Which begs the question - is Maradona even aware of the fact that Ronaldo did not played the Euro Final?? Of course, what Maradona will never acknowledge is the fact that Maradona played for a very different version of Argentina, a national team that could win without Maradona, as was demonstrated at World Cup 1982, and again at Copa America 1991, and again at Copa America 1993. Argentina won the Copa America 1991 and again in 1993, without Maradona. Argentina failed to win the Copa America 1987 and again failed in 1989, with Maradona. Argentina has not won any meaningful titles since Copa America 1993. Messi plays for a different version of Argentina, a national team that has not won any meaningful titles since Copa America 1993. But of course, Maradona isn't big on facts, especially facts that would rightfully discredit his achievements as a player, which is why he goes about his days believing that he is the type of larger-than-life player that could magically single-handedly 'fix' the systematic problems that have prevented Argentina's national team from playing to their real potential. Maradona will go on, for the rest of his life, convinced that England 1986, Belgium 1986, and West Germany 1986, were somehow great national teams compared to 'average' Argentina, when in fact not one single one of those national teams were proven teams nor demonstrably great teams at that point in time (in 1986). Had Argentina 1986 played Bochini in Maradona's place, played Daniel Passarella as the captain - and Argentina 1986 would've definitely proved itself a top tier national team against England 1986, Belgium 1986, and West Germany 1986. Bottom line: Maradona's opinion about Cristiano Ronaldo, would be very different if Ronaldo actually played for the modern version of Argentina. In fact, it's rather easy to make an educated guess as to what Maradona would've said about Ronaldo's World Cup 2014, had Ronaldo played for Argentina 2014. Considering the fact that Messi scored no easy goals, and considering the fact that Messi was the only attacker who scored a goal for Argentina - Ronaldo 2014 would've struggled to score a goal out of difficult situations, which is what Messi did in every game of the group stage. And so it isn't difficult to imagine how Maradona would've taken his opportunity to discredit Ronaldo, "Injury is no excuse for Ronaldo's lack of personality when the going gets tough. I played World Cup 1990 with a swollen ankle, and my performance at WC 1990 was two times better than Ronaldo's effort." It would be typical Maradona, who cares more about his own legacy, than he cares about the state of Argentina's national team.
Yes, absolutely. In the 2007 final, a very good Brazil team beat Argentina 3-0 and I'll concede that even Ronaldo probably wouldn't have been able to change the outcome in that match. In the other 3 major finals for Argentina, the scores were: 0-0 after 120 minutes (lost 4-1 on penalties) 0-0 after 120 minutes (lost 4-2 on penalties) 0-0 after 90 minutes (lost 1-0 in extra time) If Messi would have gotten hurt in the 25th minute of each match and exited just like Ronaldo did in the Euro final, that's 255 minutes for a substitute to impact the match enough to make one single play to score one single goal that would have given Argentina a trophy. Is that not likely? With talent like Aguero, Di Maria, Lamela, Lavezzi, and Tevez on the bench? Surely you'd expect those kind of players to score at least once in a 3 game span. But no, Messi was too busy failing under the big spotlight to give anyone else a chance making plays like this: and this: and this: I can't imagine any other "legend" getting let off the hook for his team failing to score one goal across 450 minutes of international finals (including the 3-0 loss to Brazil) AND THEN even missing a penalty on top of it when his team somehow manages to carry him to a shootout at 0-0.
I don't know why we still bother taking Pele and Maradona's opinions seriously. They've proven themselves completely inept at it. I think a major factor that's being overlooked is the manager. For example, I strongly believe that Argentina's long-term failings have more to do with the manager than with players. I think the same of England's 'golden generation.' Since we're on Maradona anyway, think of how he handled WC2010. That team would have been a serious contender with a better manager. Maradona didn't even bring Cambiasso and Zanetti who were both key players of the treble winning Inter Milan team. At club level, the manager is even more influential. My own examples are Thierry Henry and Patrick Vieira. I used to hold their lack of UCL success against them but 20 years of Wenger has taught me that they never stood a chance. They were never going to win the UCL, during their peak years with Wenger. With increased professionalism, the manager's influence grows. This is especially true in the modern era and I think it will increasing be so. Stars can't just carry anymore (Have they ever been able to? Is Football a sports where people can just do that at the elite level?) While the likes of Messi and Ronaldo are deservedly considered the team's best player...the superstar, it's important to recognise the supporting cast. There is not enough recognition of this. Pep, Xavi, Iniesta, and Alves and co. made Messi a legend. Zidane, Modric, Isco, Kroos, Marcelo, and Ramos and co. are making Ronaldo an equivalent legend. The manager makes the team, and the team makes the star.
I gave you an explanation of what heat map represents according to the people who introduced it. But because you are Bigsoccer lunatic with one track mind you tried to give your own hogwash explanation while throwing veil insults in your post as usual. Explanation of the heat map has got nothing to do with Messi/Muller/CR7/or who ever you can want to make example of. But since you are a resident idiot you can come up with thousand crazy explanations to make you feel better. By the way I think you are an idiot, has been an idiot, and will continue to be an idiot. Writing lengthy posts is not going to change my opinion.