A very good FA cup final (forget 1st goal) and a great atmosphere at Berlin. Frankfurt fans have been amazing.
While I agree for a long time the narrative is imbalanced... Goals scored when team are losing: Cristiano - 12 Messi - 5But CR is being 'carried by the team' and Messi 'carries the team'… pic.twitter.com/avCyvXVX7S— TheCristianoFan 🇵🇹 (@TheCristianoFan) May 25, 2017 .... surely today was a 'big game'?
What kind of stupid stat is this ? How about when the game is tied ? How about a goal that sends a 1 goal lead to 2 which is pretty damn important ? Having said that, are we really going with the shallow one dimensional goal argument ? Do people not realize Ronaldo is being serviced as a striker while Messi has been playing much deeper ? If you don't think Messi carries Barca more than Ronaldo carries RM that means you either don't watch the games or you don't know WTF you're watching.
Yes I know CR7 was rested (and Messi missed games due to suspension and injury too) but turns out both Hazard and CR7 played about the same number of games. Since the Ronaldinho/Henry era that's quite impossible but further back people also thought that of a Keegan in 1978 for instance or Owen in 2001. Not now but theoretically it's possible to be recognized as the best while not playing in the Champions League. Let's also keep in mind that you actually don't need to play against all the best players in the world in the Champions League. It's not a round robin competition and it's also not a delineated timeframe in the sense a world cup is (although ppl implicitly assume players play under the same circumstances and same arena but that's always flawed to an extent). The recent Champions League changes have been designed to prevent the EPL becomes the NBA of football, but if the relative disregard for the UCL continues by English teams (as discussed here) then it might be.
No I agree Ronaldo hasn't the same added value, and certainly not in a random match. I already said he isn't a top three player in the world this season, in my opinion. But he obviously works hard and with the injuries he's had I can't say he should do better.
@celito your such a CR7 hater and unlike leadleader I really don't understand where your anti Ronaldo rhetoric stems from (You're Brazilian for God's sake are you forgetting how many times Lionel Messi has put your NT to the sword and then of course there is the whole Brazil/Argentina rivalry thing that's been going on for an age) Ronaldo scores more important goals than Messi and has been doing for about the last 5 years This is FACT that has been proven umpteenth times Scoring the goal to put your side up 1 or 2-0 against celta Vigo, espanyol, eibar etc really isn't the same as scoring 2 hattricks against atletico Madrid in a single season and 5 goals in 2 games against Bayern Munich If you cannot understand that CR7 is demonstrably a superior goalscorer than Lionel Messi then I'm afraid you are just denying established facts Messi is a more complete player Ronaldo is a better goalscorer Messi is easily the most complete attacking player in history While Ronaldo is the most complete goalscorer the game has ever seen and probably will ever see Appreciate them both while you can because the current crop of so called superstars are showing no signs of replicating the same level of football we have been witnessing for the last 10 years
So you're basically saying you'd respect my opinion more if it was biased ? That's a bit bizarre don't you think ? So I post about not looking just at goals and you go on to highlight goals. Ok then ... Consistently scoring those goals to put Barca up 1 or 2 goals against those teams have yielded Barca 6 league titles in 9 years. And let's be honest, those goals against Atletico and Bayern are an aberration. It was a factor of great opportunities presenting themselves rather than great dominating performances. It saved an individual season that up until then was actually quite ordinary in the realm of Messi/Ronaldo. I find Messi just as competent of a goal scorer. His goal average is a bit higher than Ronaldo's career wise and don't tell me he hasn't scored goals in big occasions vs big teams. I seem to remember Messi tearing it up goal wise (and assist) when he played as a false 9 being the focus of the attack with quality support which is something Ronaldo is enjoying now. Ronaldo has the advantage in his goal scoring repertoire because he is better with his weak leg although Messi is no slouch with his right leg. And he is obviously much better at heading the ball. But in terms of positioning in the box and anticipating defenders and plays, they are on the same level (playing as the focal point in attack). Ronaldo, along with Pele' in my opinion, is probably the best athlete to ever play football. He is also among if not the best at headers. Pele' is up there too although he wasn't as tall. His main asset is his work ethic, athleticism, and using that to consistently taking shots at the goal and putting him self in good scoring opportunities. Although I always found that except for the last year or two, his excessive speculative shooting form outside the box was a bit detrimental to RMs whole game. It's a bit curious that if you take Bale, put Isco in, and push Ronaldo forward making him less a part of the build up, RM have looked much better than at any time in the past 8 years.
Lionel Messi is an inferior goalscorer at least that much is clear Messi is very weak in his heading technique Completely average in his weak foot accuracy (less than 30 out of 500+ goals) So so in freekicks(until 2015 he was completely average in Fk scoring less than 20 freekicks at 28 years old) Prime Ronaldo's was and still is a complete and total goalscoring phenomenon At heading he is GOAT tier His ability to poach goals in the penalty area is amongst the very best of all time His Long distance shooting ability is also arguably unprecedented in the history of the game (With over 90 goals from outside the box) If you have any evidence of eusebio and Pele( who were also known as long distance strike specialists )being able to score 90 goals from outside the box than I would like to see it Cr7's ability to create his own chances is also GOAT tier (Scoring between 30-40 career Solo goals where he dribbled at least 1 player) As far as I'm concerned that is more than any forward in history that I know of not named Messi) You have already noted his athletic qualities but completely ignored his prime dribbling technique was legendary He was also easily a top 5 dribbler of the last 20 years(during his dribbling prime 2007-2010) A demonstrably Superior dribbler to single every player not named Messi,peak r9 and possibly peak ronaldinho (2004/05 only) You assertion that scoring a bucket load of goals against the some of the best teams in Europe with over a goal per game ratio is not dominating or taking over a match is completely laughable Going by your definition Ronaldo de Lima never dominated a single big match in his career (dictating the tempo of the attack, creating chances and scoring goals like a cruyff or Messi) And of course a cup final against 8th place Lazio can't for obvious reasons be described as a great performance against a big team Strikers like puskas, eusebio and van basten also cannot qualify as big game performers Did any of them dominate big matches as opposed to just scoring goals in them Just to let you know Ronaldo's hattrick against atletico In a champions league semi final was worth more than any champions league performance by Messi since 2010/11(vs Manchester united)
First of all, let me say that you completely ignored any of my points. Just to point out one, is that Messi's GPG average is well above Ronaldo's. Overall around 30 less goals with 150 less games. How can he be such an inferior goal scorer ? He is short. He probably never focused much on headers. Not even close to Ronaldo, but he has a nice header goal in a CL final. He scored 70+ goals with his right foot. You're way off. Don't think he took many FKs before. But once he focused on it, he became world class. Ronaldo on the other hand has been shit in the last what ? 4 years ? That's because his technique is mainly knuckle balling it and hoping for the best. No placement. It also takes Ronaldo's quite a few more shots to score the same amount of goals as Messi. Making him a more ineffective goal scorer. I never denied these things. Messi has a lot of goals from outside the box. If not equal not that far from Ronaldo specially if you don't count FKs. Although you probably mean 35+ yards, which I think Ronaldo has only a few. Who said anything about Pele or Eusebio ? Early CR7 was good at dribbling. Although as you said, not as good as those other players mentioned. Mainly IMO because they were more objective. CR7 had a lot of mindless flash dribbles earlier in his career compared to those other players. I went through this earlier. Looking at his CL SF games, a lot of tap ins and well setup goals. Nothing out of the ordinary. Specifically with RM. Who said anything about R9 an etc ? Why are you bringing them up at all ? You have to be joking right ? Messi vs RM CL SF two goals at the Bernabeu one of which was one of the greatest CL goals of all time. Worth more than any of those goal vs Atletico. Messi 2 goals vs Bayern CL SF 2 years ago. One from outside the box vs Neuer and another putting Boateng to the ground with a sublime move and a class finish, with his weak foot, against the best goal keeper in the world. Compare that to Ronaldo's goals vs Bayern this season. How many of his goals were from outside the box ? How many players did he dribble ?
When all is said and done: Cristiano Ronaldo > Lionel Messi and will be remembered as such once their careers are done and dusted, especially given Messi's national team flop history.
But Cruyff won eff all in international, and many would still consider him superior to CR7. Trying to guess how players will be remembered is a fools errand. For example, I never thought Zidane would be remembered as a top 10 all-timer when he retired, but he universally is.
Pele, Muller, romario were also short but world class at heading. Please stop being a Messi apologist and just admit this has never been his strong point You are also misquoting me I didn't say Ronaldos performance vs atletico was better than any CL performance by Messi.i said it was better than any of his champions league performances since the 2011 final against Manchester united Also you cannot expect Ronaldo to score the exact type of goal as Messi as they have different strengths Dribbling 4 players to Score in a CL semi final is totally ridiculous (in a good way)and Messi deserves huge credit for scoring such a stupendous goal in a big game Scoring goals from 40 yards to win champions league semi finals and quarter finals is also an exceptional feat As far as Messi being inferior in goalscoring to Ronaldo is concerned Since 2009/10 Ronaldo has scored 50+ goals in 6 consecutive seasons Messi has scored 50+ goals in 5 seasons and not consecutively) Ronaldo has scored more: la Liga hattricks More CL ko stage goals More goals In la Liga away matches More freekicks More headers More screamers (25-40 yard goals) Counting the first 4-5 years of Ronaldo's career is also being slightly disingenuous From 2002/03-2006/07 Cristiano Ronaldo was a traditional winger it was only In from 07/08 onwards that he started operate as a fw. Messi was always a WF or false 9(completely goal orientated player) Even now days he really isn't a real playmaker like maradona was in Napoli I would compare him to the role ronaldinho played for Barcelona (a WF or second striker who can drop deep and create but isn't the exclusive playmaker of the side)
Crossing for headers is not really part of Barca's game plan. So that's irrelevant. Although he has a few high quality header goals in his career. Better than Messi vs Bayern ? 2 quality goals and an assist and overall good performance ? Why ? And what does since 2011 mean ? Why 2011 ? Since you're big on dates, show me CR7 truly great CL SF at RM. That's a lot niche categories. In plain summary, since Ronaldo joined RM. Ronaldo GPG is 1.03 and Messi is 1.01. Difference is minimal. Messi 427 in 422 games vs Ronaldo 404 in 393. That's pretty convenient. Let's not count Ronaldo's early scoring record based on his positioning but let's penalize Messi in those big games where he drops deeper to assist with play making while Ronaldo is basically cherry picking. Who created those 2 great scoring opportunities vs Juve from a deeper position ? Seriously, isn't it bizarre that in a season where Ronaldo's scoring rate has gone down (partially for playing less games but also due to some poor finishing), that he suddenly scores 8 goals vs Bayern and Atletico ? That's why I said, it's an aberration. He just had a lot of very good scoring opportunities. And let's not forget some of those goals were vs 10 man Bayern in both games where he didn't really take on players, he was a benefactor of that numerical superiority by waiting for the team to create those opportunities for him.
Doubt it. People will generally appreciate the magic Messi provides with the ball at his feet more. Ronaldo has won 2 CLs where he was injured so basically RM were playing 10 x 11 and an Euro where he didn't play the final. Maybe he can produce some magic vs Juve.
@carlito86 While I disagree with you on many points, I do respect your opinion and see where you're coming from on many of them.
I think you are out of touch with the general feel. Last couple of years people have grown to appreciate CR7 more and Messi less. I would say a majority of people think CR7 is the bigger legend now.
I've seen the way they talk about Messi and Ronaldo. But I was expressing my opinion . You're the one who said I was out of touch. So I am waiting for your references .
Honestly, the Champions League is incredibly overrated - and has arguably been incredibly overrated for quite some time now. Serie A has not been producing realistic challengers - Juventus 2017 might prove to be exactly that, but Italy has not produced a Champions League winner since 2007. Meanwhile, the English Premier League also has not been producing realistic challengers - Chelsea 2012 was the last one, and Chelsea 2012 really shouldn't have won. And then there's the Bundesliga, a league that can only offer one challenger, Bayern Munich, a team that has not played a UCL Final since 2013. The Champions League is an overrated competition the way it exists today. Real Madrid 2015/16 played against Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City - that's easier than La Liga or the English Premier League. Real Madrid 2016/17 played against Napoli, incomplete Bayern Munich (with help from the ref), and past-their-golden-period Atletico Madrid - that's actually easier than La Liga 2016/17, where you have to face Barcelona and Real Madrid 2-4 times. Anyways, Cristiano Ronaldo this year has played against the following players/opponents: 1. Arjen Robben (33 year old), who thoroughly outplayed Ronaldo when Bayern Munich played with their complete team (that is, when Bayern Munich played with Hummels and with Lewandowski, both Top 4 players at Bayern, and both players who missed the first leg). Of course, the referee came to the rescue, reducing Bayern to 9 outfield players, and directly assisting 2 off-side goals by Ronaldo. 2. Antoine Griezmann - inferior to Hazard, Neymar, and possibly also Alexis. Griezmann gets greatly inflated because of team results in the Champions League, similar to how Ronaldo gets greatly inflated because he can score goals against Wolfsburg 2016 (the 8th best team of the Bundesliga at the time), Atletico Madrid 2017 (a team that concedes around 2 goals per game against Real Madrid and Barcelona), etc. 3. Ronaldo 2017 did not played against Messi, Neymar, or Suarez. Ronaldo has not played against Messi since 2011. The Champions League as of late has much more to do with getting opponents that suit you. (Or getting relatively easy opponents like Wolfsburg 2015/16 or Atletico Madrid 2016/17.) Real Madrid suits Barcelona much better than Atletico Madrid 2013-2016 or Juventus 2017. Atletico Madrid 2013-2016 or Juventus 2017 suit Real Madrid much better than Barcelona 2009-2017. And given the demonstrable consensus that only Barcelona and/or Real Madrid seem to be good enough to win the Champions League, the Champions League specifically is all about Real Madrid and Barcelona getting opponents that suit them. With that in mind: Barcelona has gotten exactly the wrong opponents, i.e. Atletico Madrid 2013/14, Atletico Madrid 2015/16, and Juventus 2016/17. In the past 4 seasons, 3 out of 4 times Barcelona had to play the Quarter Finals against the team with the best defensive record. On the other hand, Real Madrid played against Borussia Dortmund 2013/14 (not as strong as 2012/13 Borussia Dortmund), Juventus 2014/15 (not as strong as Juventus 2016/17), Wolfsburg 2015/16 (not as strong as Wolfsburg 2014/15), incomplete Bayern Munich 2016/17 (not as strong as any of the previous versions of Bayern Munich), and Atletico Madrid 2016/17 (not as strong as Atletico Madrid 2013-2016). Every single one of Real Madrid's opponents was a 'weakened' version of a team that had been competitive throughout the previous 2-3 seasons. Bottom line: the Champions League is not a competition where the best players consistently play against the best players. Case in point: Buffon 2017 is the only Ballon d'Or candidate that Ronaldo 2017 will play against. How relatively poor (in some regard) does the Champions League need to be, that Buffon 2017 is a candidate for the Ballon d'Or?? That can easily happen when the English Premier League is not producing Champions League contenders, which then adds to the fact that the Serie A is a one-team-league, which then adds to the fact that the Bundesliga also is a one-team-league, which then ultimately adds to the fact that Cristiano Ronaldo has not played against Lio Messi since 2011. In such a highly unique context, a player like Cristiano Ronaldo can be perceived as 'better' than Messi, even though Messi has been superior by a clear margin. And Ronaldo can be perceived as 'better' than Eden Hazard - even though Eden Hazard is in fact obviously 'better' than Cristiano Ronaldo (at this stage of Ronaldo's career, that is). ,
Cristiano Ronaldo really is a bizarre 'era' in football. Here is a player who apparently is 'better than Messi' because, unlike Messi, Ronaldo can win Finals without doing anything in those Finals. 1. Subpar Champions League Final 2014 - but Real Madrid won. 2. Subpar Champions League Final 2016 - but Real Madrid won. 3. Didn't play the Euro Final - but Portugal won. Ronaldo's all-time standing would deflate a great deal without those team results. Messi's all-time standing is nowhere near as reliant on team results. I'm actually, as of late, more concerned about how moronic the average fan is today, compared to the fan of the 1990s and the 2000s. For example, I think that Zidane is overrated, but at least Zidane does actually have memorable 'big games' against national teams that were considered difficult at the time. Zidane does have his performance vs. overrated Portugal 2000, vs. ronaldo-less (overrated) Brazil 1998, vs. overrated Brazil 2006, etc. In sharp contrast, Ronaldo simply doesn't have that; Ronaldo's Semi Final in the Euro was a game against incomplete Wales (Wales was playing without one of their Top 2 players), a game where Ronaldo scored a goal but otherwise failed to imprint an indelible impression on the occasion. I mean, it's highly ironic that the more 'scientific' that the sport becomes (with all the statistics), the dumber the average fan is. I honestly do not think that fans in the 1990s and the early 2000s were THIS dumb. Not playing Finals and/or doing badly in Finals, is the new 'Ronaldo is better than Messi' argument... And perhaps it's just nostalgia, but I sincerely doubt that fans were THIS dumb before the social media brainwashed them. There was a time when 'uneducated' fans actually looked at the actual performances, instead of the misleading statistics that continue to inflate Ronaldo's myth.
Ronaldo has performed at a world class level in several champions league semi final ties 2006/07 SF home leg vs Milan Scored an early goal and was a constant dribbling threat https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.st...nited-v-milan-player-ratings-7175551.html?amp His 08/09 CL SF performance vs arsenal was legendary ( 2goals+1 assist out of 4 goals scored by his team) In the 07/08 CL final against chelsea he was clearly the best outfield player was duly awarded MOTM for his performance In the 2010/11 away SF tie against Barcelona he was also clearly one of the best players on the pitch in addition to being the most persistent and effective dribbling threat 0:55-1:05 dribbles past Sergio busquets and Dani Alves before unleashing Marcelo with a pass down the wing 1:25-1:50 helps to disposses a Barcelona player then proceeds to dribble past Alves and busquets (again)all the while shielding the ball from Lionel Messi 3:35-4:30 Creates a goal scored by higuain with a piece of world class piece of play CR7 recieves the ball in the midfield and goes on a run where he dribbles past Dani Alves (3rd time) and Gerard pique who trips him just outside the penalty area The goal was wrongly disallowed as the ref chose to award the foul instead of play the advantage. In addition to this he also completed a few one v one dribbles, attempted chances created and fouls drawn All in all a very good performance by every player not named Ronaldo or Messi (If Andres iniesta could complete 7-8 dribbles and create a clear goal scoring opportunity in a single champions league SF game you would be shamelessly presenting it as example of how he is supposedly a far better dribbler than zidane LOL) Ronaldo was also clearly world-class in the 2014 CL SF final against Bayern and the 2017 SF final vs atletico These are all great performances against periodic top 4 sides all completely capable of league titles in their respective leagues To briefly summarize C.Ronaldo's legacy and all time ranking did not become inflated after he won a few major titles over the past few seasons A 22 year old Ronaldo(2008) was already ranked amongst the greatest wingers of all time and top 50 all Time player Before he reclaimed the ballon dor from Messi in 2013 he finished runner up 3 times behind him and 4 times in total between 2007-2012 Ronaldo(2007-2014) was never at any stage during his prime inferior to any European player who was part of his generation He was effectively the undisputed Best European player on at least 7 occasions That is at least twice as long a period of dominance as either Michel platini or van basten
Please stop using vs Arsenal stats for anyone. I don't like it either when people use it for Messi. Arsenal is the perfect UCL stat-padder for elite UCL teams. They're good enough to be considered a 'top 4 team from England, with a long history of being in the UCL' but tactically naive enough to be absolutely battered by top team after top team. Not just in UCL actually, in 2013-14, we lost 6-0 to Chelsea, 5-1 to Liverpool, and 6-3 to Man City in one EPL season.
Wouldn't this hurt the competitors of CRonaldo more though, like for instance Messi, much of whose early CL legend was based on his 4 goal destruction of Arsenal in 2010 (the 5 goals vs Leverkusen are a similar level example as well IMO, from a perspective of opposition tactical naivete). He has also had a number of goals against them later on due to how often the team was paired up against Barcelona, unlike the case of CRonaldo and Real Madrid. And more recently (past 4 years), the same can be said about Bayern's attackers and their goal scoring exploits vs Arsenal in the CL.