It's not about Messi. It's about You underrate almost every current sport star . Only formers players are great, todays stars are shit . Messi failed many times and I don't have a problem with it . What with Diego failed in Copa America? Why he never make an impression in european cups ? He played +30 games and failed much heavier than Messi . Emperor of 80's football who won nothing bar WC 86 and even then he have to cheat...
Holes can be punctured into anyone's legacy....even Zidane Just for fun ZIdane was never rated by DBS calcio as the best player of his league between 1997-2006 LIonel Messi was Cristiano Ronaldo was Diego Maradona was Zico was Thierry Henry was Luis Alberto suarez was Francisco Totti was Ronaldinho was Neymar JR was on what basis was Zidane ever unanimously considered the best of his league during even one season?
Context matters... that's what I desperately tried to explain to Carlito... Let's see if you can do it better than me
I think Zidane was considered the best of his league on the basis of actually winning awards like the Ligue 1 Young Player of the Year and Player of the Year, Serie A Foreign Footballer of the Year and the Footballer of the Year as well as the Don Balon Best Foreign Player. Also ESM (which is a group formed by various European Sports Media) had him in their teams of the season which was based on appearances in monthly teams during the season across 4 different seasons as well. For his era, he even has the most appearances in ESM after Roberto Carlos, thus being the best attacker from his era as per that metric. I mean DBS Calcio is great and all, but its just one source. What do you mean by "even Zidane"? He is one of the most criticised players on this forum. I defend him simply because a lot of the criticism has always been over the top, while quite a bit more seems to be the result of uninformed opinions. Coming back to the actual point of discussion, Zidane had his problems with circumstances, but that did not result in him showcasing a 70 goal season for one of his teams an year after going through a dry spell which had him not score in competitive games over a period of two years for his other team, that too without any real injury issues, unlike Messi. And Zidane is probably the footballer most panned for his lack of consistency on this forum while Messi is held up as a paragon of consistency. The irony is staggering frankly.
I don’t think I’ve ever implied that. But it is all about Messi, since you asked my opinion how I rank him amongst former greats, which I gave my views: I have him in the first tier with other historical Argentinian players, due to the ability to conquer the masses and his historical relevance in his epoch. But as an historical football emperor he’s one of the weakest in my view due to his inabilities to conquer and adapt to other atmospheres (NT tournaments — CL quarterfinals-semifinals on the road) despite having settings/perks and surrounded by top guns to his favor. Here’s where it becomes an issue. People think because Argentina currently are desperate to win a title for going through their longest drought in their history and Messi’s desperate attempt at redeeming his shortcomings at the highest international levels, that the circumstances were equally the same in the 1970s and 1980s for Argentina. The reality is the Copa Américas were really not a big deal for Argentina back then. All of a sudden it’s a big deal now because it’s Messi and the world watches to see if he can break the bad luck of not lifting a senior trophy. However, I will say this to address your question: 1.) Maradona never played fully fit in 1987 and 1989, carrying injuries in both competitions (would Messi or Cristiano have played with tendinitis or some other afflictions to their trots ?). It’s like Platini at WC86 with tendinitis or Maradona himself at WC90. 2.) Argentina’s manager Bilardo used those tournaments as primary experiments for the World Cups. 3.) Maradona in 1989 played his weakest NT tournament, severely criticized for even participating given his physical condition (hampered by an injury at the end of the season with Napoli) that was unacceptable for such an event. How about answering me this: Messi has played in all major NT tournaments injury-free, how come he’s never stamped his mark as the absolute ruler in any tournament ? What’s his and fan’s excuses ? The officials, teammates, dysfunctional system, corrupt organizations, the pitches, etc... it’s time to man-up and accept his inabilities outside the confines of his comfort zone. Or just accept he’s not as good as some believe. The comparisons are not like for like: Barcelona of Messi’s generation is a superpower in comparison to the Barcelona/Napoli of Maradona's epoch. However, while I agree with certain points of @PuckVanHeel his views on Maradona in Europe, one aspect that is a recurring fact that is never mentioned is how many times Maradona and other stars of his generation played in inferior physical condition, receiving cortisone injections to lace them boots. They all cheat, mate, even Messi being a beneficiary of phantom calls/fixed games (Ecuador 2017 hello !) and rigged draws at the World Cup (2014). I think evidently most of what I say will fall on deaf ears but if you need any further information you can do your own research thanks to this forum or quick searches online. I’ve said I’m more of a critic than his fan and all that talk about him as the “GOAT” is nonsense and propaganda in my view. You betcha! As an athlete MJ was in his own class with Dominick, but in a team game as a basketball technician and tactician, “Larry Legend” could compete with anyone in his day.
You can try to analyze and understand why he doesn't deliver as much for Argentina (and there are valid reasons why), or just call the guy a choker / fraud and bash without providing any reason. If you're going to say he is not as great because of his "failures" on NT level, at least people should provide reasons. And there are some valid things to pick out. But you know ... it's not like he is scoring tap ins after tap ins at club level.
Libertadores and CL were shorter competitions back then. In 62 Pele didn't even play in the first 2 final games. He scored 2 in the 3rd tie breaker game. Not sure if Pele played all previous phase games.
No because platini and Maradona were extraterrestrials who could play through pain barriers that Cristiano Ronaldo would crumble under For your info Ronaldo played through half the 13/14 champions KO stage and WC14 with tendinosis https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/27700801 This is a fact not speculation or conjecture
McEnroe one my personal favourites says Federer would have reigned supreme in any era ... brilliant at all sports as a youngster he actually preferred football early on and only chose to concentrate on tennis at 12.
Fantastic!!! Cristiano has just gained points with me and deserves the recognition for candidate of greatest warrior of his generation....Bravo!!!
Maybe not reigned supreme but definitely would have stood toe to toe with his contemporaries, moreso than Nadal whose dominance is fundamentally oriented on clay courts.
Cristiano Ronaldo is most likely a diva than a warrior Maradona could ride tackles as a George Best but he is also a underrated diver Instead the narrative was Maradona stayed on his feet (always) If I had the time it could easily be demonstrated that this was far from the truth
We finally agree on something: Maradona at times was a ‘diver’ particularly in the latter stages of his career.
He can't win here. If he had retired early, he'd have been criticised for not caring. If he hangs on and keeps turning out then he's desperate to win. He clearly wants to win, he clearly has the capacity to do so but there are much bigger issues there. The fact he has no group of club fans behind him means he will naturally be viewed differently. He was once the World Soccer winner, twice the Onze d'Or winner, he was never the highest rated player in Italy based on the Guerin Sportivo Award. I've seen the various things you have posted previously that give a sense he was continuously highly regarded, but most of those are more a sense of overall class rather than him being the best in each individual year. In contrast all the measures show Messi has basically been in almost every year for the last 11 years.
Again, to me this doesn't add up. Barcelona have been competing against Real Madrid who have won the European Cup 4 times in the last 6 year, Atletico Madrid who have been twice losing finalists and Sevilla who have won 5 Europa Leagues during Messi's time, not to mention Valencia, a historical powerhouse themselves. They've won 8 out of the last 11 league titles. None of the teams you have mentioned there have had those levels of rivals. Meanwhile you allude to Serie A in the 80s, an era in which teams had at most 3 and for much of the period 2 foreigners. It's not like they had a monopoly on the best players in that era. Moreover, just look at the results. In the last decade Spanish sides have won 6 Champions Leagues and lost another 2 finals. In the 80s Italian sides won 2 and lost 2. English teams won twice as many European Cups as Italian sides despite being banned for half the decade! To continue, look at the teams that Messi has delivered most against. Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid and Athletic. He beats up the big boys. Not just the minnows. https://dailytimes.com.pk/296316/4-teams-messi-has-scored-most-goals-against/ He's won 4 European Cups. He's been the top scorer in the Champions League 6 times. It's been pretty obvious just how good he's been in the competition.
You're a clever guy, so I am guessing you are already aware quite how flawed this method is. For the avoidance of doubt though: It's entirely binary. It treats any competition you don't win as a failure. So Messi's extra-time loss in the 2014 World Cup final, after which he was named as player of the tournament, counts the same as the 1958 World Cup which Di Stefano failed to even qualify for. It treats Messi going out in the CL semi-final as topscorer the same as Maradona going out in the first and second rounds in his only appearance in the top competition. That can't make any sense. It also bizarrely punishes Messi for consistently winning leagues and qualifying for things. It's like that Michael Jordan quote about failure, Messi has actually been there and taken part in the big competitions. Maradona didn't even qualify to take part. Finally, it conflates team achievements with those of a single player. Barcelona have failed to win the CL in lots of seasons, but how often has Messi failed? Hardly ever. Even in the competitions where he doesn't win, he almost always shows you plenty to remind you why he is a player of incredible talents.
I struggle to square this with all your previous comments about skills marking out the true greats. The only level in which Ronaldo can rival Messi is his goalscoring. Judging them based on that is like measuring Cruyff against Gerd Muller or Maradona against Hugo Sanchez. Cristiano hasn't held his own. He's done extremely well against the best player in history, hence his own greatness, but just because they are contemporaries and draw comparisons does't make them equals. What makes you view them as equals? This is just conjecture. You take away 2 titles for Messi on the basis that his side wouldn't have qualified for the old European Cup, but how about the trophies he would have won if those rules had excluded others? This season for example, Liverpool, Ajax and Spurs, the other semi-finalists, didn't win the league. Are you happy to hand that one to Barcelona? Or in 2012 when they were eliminated by Chelsea and neither Bayern nor Real Madrid had won the league? Suddenly in this make believe world we are going to end up giving Messi more Champions Leagues than you have taken away.
It is bit of a misconception that he is widely put in a class below Maradona. That is the case among the masses, the corporate media, this thoroughly pro big cultures/anti dutch board (germanophile Ariaga, comme with him ranking Beckenbauer higher, Dearman, Peru FC placing them in different classes) but many others like the IFFHS expert vote, the France Football vote among former winners (gap of only 3 points, with the likes of Matthews not voting), the Don Balon all time list, even german publications as SportBild didn't show Maradona higher. And certainly not in different classes, while playing in a roughly similar era and a roughly similar game, similar rules (and stratification). Maradona might have had the higher peak and more talent (though the other has some wonderful passes with his weaker left foot), also better protected overall, but the consistency and demonstrable influence (while playing different roles and positions) argument goes to the other. He clearly would have had three La Liga titles if he had played all games. There is one European season with 0 goals (1974-75) but also there still 9 assists... There is virtually no individual weakness in the league and European resume (high finishes, scoring against Real Madrid when going out etc). Only real weakness is him playing only two tournaments, but also that is more a product of missing games than failing there (he produced the goods in the games he did play). For club level the number of high finishes across the board is stronger and the statistical influence on that as well. There was steady delivery against the very top sides in 60s and still in the 80s too (like Liverpool). Therefore very often not placed in a different class.
Your arguments might have been effective https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-football-players-of-all-time.2011432/page-56
Cristiano is an absolute warrior make no mistake about it. I dont know a single player with a stronger mentality than him. That guy will stop at no cost and never gets satisfied. I have never seen a period where CR7 is content, unlike Messi. Messi who even retired because of a lack of NT success The only reason CR7 fakes is because it has become an advantage. Referees call such easy fouls today unlike the past. And CR7 will do anything to get the advantage. CR7 has been heavily criticized since he joined Manchester and always came out on top. Even those years Messi won 4 ball on dors in a row his level never dropped. Opposing fans would shout ''Messi, Messi" wherever he went. And it didnt matter. He would supposedly get made fun of for some of his training habits at Manchester and he didnt care. He was 18-19 amongst grown man and he was so determined that their jokes didn't faze him. He would be told to stop training after staying too long after practices. He has proven everything but he still wants to play til 40. How many times has he missed games because of injury over 10 years despite wanting to play every game???? CR7 is the closest thing to Alexander The Great as far as I'm concerned. Over all players, if any of them were to lead a men across the Earth to conquer terrirtory, I would most fear CR7. The dude is never satisfied. At least up to this point. And joining Juventus, he only wants to prove himself even more. Name one player in history with such an attitude, such a mentality???
Thank you for the compliment, but I disagree with your premise. The method is flawed if you look at it from only one side. Let me explain ... I have included both club and NT international tournaments just for this reason. While the above happens on one end, on the other, Di Stefano gets punished because he has the misfortune of playing and losing to a strong side like Barcelona in the first round of the EC in 60/61. Messi does not have to worry about something like that due to how the current CL group stage format and seedings and draws work. Conversely, it also allows Messi to stat-pad in games wherein mostly, his presence or absence for his team would not make much of a difference considering Barcelona's strong record without Messi. Considering Messi's scoring issues in knockout rounds in the CL against strong opponents, I doubt Messi would have the kind of CL scoring record that he has now if he had to work with the EC format that the older greats had to contend with. Maradona was not brought into the discussion when I made that comment for a reason. He never had the advantages that Messi has had at club level, so the comparison is inherently flawed. Furthermore, you have pointed out in another post that Maradona was the premier player in the world for a shorter span of time than Messi, and you consider it as a point in favour of Messi. Well, why not use your argument of context here? When you make that statement, why not take into account how many games and seasons of Maradona were affected due to playing with or being sidelined due to serious injuries? Messi has not had to contend with this aspect since the beginning of his prime. You need to look with clearer eyes. I already asked the other poster to go ahead and do the same exercise for domestic competitions if they are interested. I don't see Di Stefano and Pele having too many challenges in putting up a good showing in that aspect against Messi. Conversely though, Messi has substantial challenges in showing up against Di Stefano and Pele on the comparison that I did though for international club and NT tournaments. Missing the penalty vs Chelsea in 2012 is a failure. Being unable to score against Inter in 2010, against Bayern in 2013, against Atletico in 2014 and 2016, against Juventus in 2017 is a failure for a player who has been a 6 time top scorer in the CL. Being unable to influence the scoreline over 90 minutes in the 2nd leg against Roma in 2018 and against Liverpool in 2019 when even a single goal for his team from any source would drastically reduce the chances of his opposition to move to the next round, is a failure as well. Simply being consistent in scoring a hatful of goals in group games in the CL wihle remaining inconsistent in the knockout rounds, does not make a player a CL success. Especially not one who has had as many opportunities by now as Messi has had, considering the already weakened nature of competition in the group stages and early knockout rounds of the current Champions League tournament format.