I never appreciated his turncoat move to go play for Spain, and frankly anyone that originally witnessed him at the 1947 CA wouldn’t place him above Pontoni (the real most valuable player according to the Argentinian newspapers of the time) or several other ‘cracks’. But his name is more famous than someone like Norberto Mendez or Boyé for example, the real difference-makers for Argentina.
You've probably seen the "Copa America Best players" list on rsssf going back to 1916. I assume it's either just completely made up or taken from a retrospective list made years later similar to what FIFA did with the World Cup Golden Ball? Any idea where it comes from? http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/sachampfulltrivia.html#best-players
Very good points. Look at a random BHC and CA in the 30s and 40s - is there a huge gap in top end quality in those competitions? It varies per tournament, but for me they look pretty similar overall. CA just has more filler teams to boost your goal total, but other than that? However the BHC is nearly completely ignored and if you would bring it up - especially to a more casual football fans - you would most certainly get mocked for suggesting that a tournament with just England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland is worth anything at all.
My point was similar for Ocwirk vs Schiaffino... the clubs they played for... Many don't consider the Central European Cup for example (and whatever quality of performances vs Italy, Czechoslovakia, Hungary).
That was obviously retroactively assigned from Conmebol (South American football confederation) at their own criteria. They went with the big names and chose Moreno as number 1 in 1947 when he was better in a losing effort in 1942 (Argentina tabloids at the time had Pontoni as the most important player in 1947) but it’s better to go with the political choices. Officially the real awards commenced in 1987.
I just wanted to edit my post and add something about the Central European Cup. Look at the teams competing in the 30s. Usually close to the WC semifinal.
What do you think is the degree that he gets involved with player selections, lineups, tactics etc? I know that he could heavily influence all of it (I'm certain most players of his status could/did that) if he wanted to, but does he actually use his power, beyond giving his opinion when asked?
One time Menotti expressed the same sentiment in regards to Maradona: he responded it’s difficult to explain, it’s something in the inmate touch that distinguishes a player from the rest. Maradona had it; Messi has it. Rene Housemann had it. It’s said Moreno had it. The deceased and well-respected Argentinian journalist, Cesar Pasquato, better known as “Juvenal” (observer of all of football’s greats since the 1940s to 1998, wrote in 1985, “the difference between the genius and a great player is that a great player can emulate to great effect what the genius created but the genius invents what doesn’t exist”. When Messi took the ball down vs Nigeria at Russia 2018 with an immaculate control on the thigh in a high speed chase before he finished the play, it was that don of a glove that kills and puts the ball to rest that distinguishes himself from the rest. He doesn’t even need to adjust. The genius has that innate don (glove) in his boot, thigh or chest. Cristiano Ronaldo is not a genius but makes up for it with his regularity and complete skill-set. When Maradona scored that goal vs Italy at the 1986 WC, his genius quickness in thought before the play is what separated himself from the rest. His ability to reach a ball in full flight on the wing against the run of play and place it effortlessly in the corner is the distinctive difference of touch that made him different. Rummenigge said it in 1982-83: “There is a difference between he and I that is clearly evident.” It’s that god-given don that’s like a glove innately attached to the boot of the player. It’s like having hands in his feet. Ardiles said it best in 1989: “Maradona can pull a rabbit out of a hat. In training it’s very hard to take the ball away from him”. The same with Messi.
I don't have a problem where Moreno is ranked among Argentinians, in fact I would most certainly have him over someone like Kempes. My problem is how he's treated (by some people) compared to legends from different countries from his generation. I'm not aware that you made a list or what your opinions on Matthews, Walter or V Mazzola are, so that wasn't directed at you specifically. A different topic... About your long Messi post: Most of what you say has some truth to it - often exaggerated - but overall you tend to massively focus on the negatives and downplay all the positive aspects about Messi's career and Messi's general ability as a player.
Not true vegan that is a ball control he has done with relative ease and regularity 0:32-1:00 GOAT level ball control and a world class finish
Another case of not considering changes in club football structure. Really wanted to avoid the Messi v Ronaldo talk, but you should think about that part again.
He has control over everything. The coaching staff is assigned based on his blessings. They can attempt to give their knowledge and ways of operating like Sampaoili tried to do but once it backfires Messi takes over. The players like Di Maria or Aguero are only still in the roster because of him. Had Maschereno and Biglia not retired from NT duties they’d also be still in the roster. They train when they want, and play certain exhibition games with his approval. His power is basically simple: he would negate playing for them. That puts Argentina’s FA at a dilemma. They’d lose massive money : sponsors, TV ratings go down, ticket sales go down, exhibition matches are less lucrative, sales in all sorts go down, Argentina’s chances at competing for a podium finish probably goes down. Messi’s image sells, he’s box-office, he’s the face of the franchise. He’s the Maradona in that aspect of the modern era.
Right, the Argentine top names Maradona, Messi, Moreno are 'god given geniuses' but the row of usual European top names are not. Cristiano with his smell for a chance is not a genius, Platini is not a genius, Cruijff is not a genius, Puskas not a genius. Right... Not a genius: Not a genius: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23ze7c https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3uebz6 I know it is the dominant perception and it will never change, but that just underlines (again) the points on systematic biases and systematic snubbing (by folks as Peru FC, Dearman) I continuously make.
Not calling up Aguero - who made the EPL team of the season - at all... this is the kind of move that is just terrible risk/reward for a coach. In case of failure to win the tournament this decision will be held against you forever.
He had plenty of chances in major tournaments but failed always to make a difference. There’s great club players that never reach the heights of their club form; Aguero being one of them.
The deceased and well-respected Argentinian journalist, Cesar Pasquato, better known as “Juvenal” (observer of all of football’s greats since the 1940s to 1998, wrote in 1985, “the difference between the genius and a great player is that a great player can emulate to great effect what the genius created but the genius invents what doesn’t exist”. I know you will disagree mate but it’s ok.
Yes, there’s no doubt jumping onto the bandwagon of champions Juventus is not that impressive at all.
What relevance does this journalists statement have in the context of this discussion What did lionel Messi invent that has no precedence in the history of football? Which ball control, dribble, finesse shot, free kick,dink shot,nutmeg etc did he pull off that was completely unique to himself Examples are required
A player with the dribbling speed of late 60s Johan Cruyff and the play making of his 83/84 version would be even more devastating than Pele
It’s more a metaphorical way of the journalist’s way of expressing how the genius does things naturally thanks to that don he’s born with, while the emulator with great practice can try in emulating to great effect what the master naturally and effortlessly can produce without the need of honing his skills. It’s like when Zidane pointed out how he once saw Maradona naturally hit consecutively the bar and posts on free kicks in training and attempted to emulate it. It’s that natural don (where it’s like the player has hands in his feet). It’s uncertain if it was this one he was referring to but the essence is there.
If you look closely enough at these teams, you'll find it coming from true footballing countries such as England, Spain and Italy. People seem to underrate the teams Messi and Cr7 had to face, an elite group of three countries that dominate the European club competitions throughout history. 10+ teams based on the strongest leagues besides Bayern and the Champion of France participates annually going from round of 16 to the final round. So in conclusion, Messi always on the road to face a big traditional club from England, Spain, Italy or Bayern. Messi and Cr7 often praised for stying too long at the top of their game in the European club competitions. What the so called Emperors did so superbly other than for three/five consecutive editions not to mention they meet up a lot of second tier teams along the road. Legends such as Di Stefano and Cruijff were expected to live up to all expectations at a specific time but once they slipped past that peak they no longer have it as the same.
As for Moreno, there are several sources describing him as an exceptional footballer but how we rank him vs the likes of Messi, Maradona or Di Stefano. England are head and shoulders the greatest football team in the first half of the 20th Century followed by Uruguay, Argentina and Italy. They beat the world champion Italy 3-2 then the humiliating 4-0 in Turin 1948. On the way, first we should consider too many English players, how to rank the first legends of the British Isles vs the likes of Bobby Charlton and Bobby Moore etc.