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Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BocaFan, Jan 19, 2015.
It is exactly as Romario once said
“When Pele keeps quiet he is a poet”
There is a marked difference between playing good for Brazil and being the exact same level player for Brazil as he was for Santos
In 1958 he scored 80 goals for Santos but only 6 for Brazil in the WC
Just Fontaine scored over double that and Kopa had more assists than Pele had goals
So he was obviously good but I don’t think he directly translated his club form to international level otherwise there is no way he’d be getting out scored by anyone(certainly not Fontaine)
Btw Pele is recieving a huge backlash from all quarters of the media,fans on Twitter(and of course by number one Messi fanboy gary linekar)
I never thought I’d live to see the day but Marca has actually gone out of their way to publicly defend Messi against Peles criticism
He has dug himself a hole here no doubt.
what was he thinking?
I never bought into the idea of Messi being a saintly figure beyond reproach or criticism but at the same time I have never heard him bad mouth a fellow professional (not even once)
Messi is respected for what he has done on the pitch and relatively speaking keeping out of the limelight and celebrity hysteria that surrounds modern day footballers
(Unlike social media Queens like pogba,Neymar and others)
For that I respect Messi he has a bit of the old school in him
His does his business on the pitch and then goes about his life privately
Pelé had 6 goals .... in 4 games . Conung back from injury in a foreign country . Fontaine had what ? 4 goals in an non important 3 rd place match ?
6 goals...in 4 games...sounds nice on paper
This Brazil NT averaged 3 goals per match without Pele even on the pitch
And even without the 4 goals scored in a inconsequential 3rd place match
Just Fontaine still scored 9 goals in 5 matches:1.8 goals per match
Pele 6 goals in 4 matches:1.5 goals per match
Just Fontaine could never score 40 goals EVER in a single club season in an era where 40 goals was common place(3-4 goals per match=weak era)
Against European defences during WC 58 Pele dropped to a goalscoring level beneath Just Fontaine and remember that in Brazil he scored 80 goals that year so the disparity between his form for club and country is clear to see
We can only wonder how many added goals Cristiano would have with didi as a main playmaker and garrincha whipping in crosses from the wing
He scored 80+ NT goals with moutinho as the main playmaker and quaresma who was absent from the NT for many years because he was on vacation in some Arab country
Ronaldo would have a 160+ NT goals in the 50s and 60s with the same support cast and it isn’t even in doubt
Pelé was never the same player for Brazil in world cups that he was for Santos
Only in copa America’s 1959 which is still shrouded in mystery(which good defences did he score against)
In the contexts of Pelé’s time and what constituted a great player, he’s totally in his right to make that assessment. It’s one of the main reasons that made Moreno and Erico to be viewed stronger than Di Stefano. It’s why Cruijff and Maradona were viewed as inferior to Pelé. They rarely had any weaknesses that could be dissected and criticized.
We live now in a different epoch, one which overlooks the deficiencies in the technical skill-set of a player.
Yes, there is a documentary out there that I watched three days ago, and in there Messi himself underlines the importance of Xavi and Cruijff, and what they did.
Thierry Henry is quite a bit cringeworthy in there. Some so called 'chapters' are way better than other chapters. Might be interesting for you and @PDG1978 too.
Whether he is talking sense or garbage he is still in his right to express his opinion(I agree)
The manner in which he did it wasn’t appropriate.it was a direct insult and more importantly an inaccurate depiction of Messi’s qualities
Saying Messi only has one skill(ie dribbling)isnt valid criticism but a lie
Thanks to footage compliled by Pele enthusiasts we have access to many of his actions(goals,assists,passing)
So from analysing video footage without even getting into the circumstances that surrounded these goals it seems Pele is a superior goal scorer to Messi.
But that’s where Peles “apparent” superiority ends
Pele cannot dribble,pass,playmake, like Messi PERIOD
His first touch by Brazilian standards is amateur night(compared to a Ronaldinho...there is no comparison)
Messi can very well be a superior player even if he isn’t as complete in goalscoring
The example of maradona/Cruyff is a false equivalence
Messi had superior heading+FK ability to Cruyff and that’s not even in doubt
I only mentioned these two things because you will argue to the end of the world that if Cruyff played in this era he would score X amount of goals
We’ve already covered maradonas weak finishing ability
If you remove all of maradonas penalty kicks and freekicks in Napoli he would have a comparable scoring record to a defender like passarella.
Being the primary set piece taker for his team gave the illusion maradona was a comparable finisher to platini(and he clearly wasn’t)
And he definitely wasn’t as good a scorer as zico of that there is no doubt whatsoever
Campeonato Paulista goals - 38 games / 58 goals = 1.52 gpg
WC 58 - 1.5 gpg ... all against European teams
Yeah and 4 matches is such a huge sample size
Pelé was out scored by Just Fontaine by 2:1
In this World Cup that averaged 3.6 goals per match Vavá also managed 5 goals(in 5 matches)
Vavá became a GOAT level scorer here and we know how average he was in his club career
You should just stick to your previous assessment that Pele played in a different era and that we shouldn’t compare him to modern day players
I prefer that because it makes sense.
Every time you insist on lauding Peles goal record we find out it has more holes than Swiss cheese
In fact for that very matter Cruijff was not viewed by all accounts as a great player. His main criticism being his weak header and weak finishing abilities. This was assessed by a Barcelona journalist at the end of Cruijff’s stint at the club.
In regards to your other points, I disagree. For example your views about Passarella and his goal scoring abilities: most arrived from the PK or free kicks. He only once scored in double figures in Serie A and was not in the top charts in Argentinian league football during Maradona’s time.
Passarella was a defender so by definition he has no right to be competing for top scorer titles EVER
Even taking all the pens/FKs of his team a player like Milner could never outscore any of prime bergkamps seasons(it’s impossible)
Passarella like koeman I believe is amongst the top scoring defenders in history with more league goals than current day wide players like Di Maria/bale/ribery
He definitely was a notable scorer even if like maradona he required set pieces to score his goals
There is nothing lazy about saying that 7 out of 8 goals that Ronaldo scored in the 2014 CL knockout stages were either superfluous or came in garbage time. It's a fact.
R16 vs. Schalke: 4 goals in a 9-2 beating. That's the definition of superfluous. Real beats that team with anybody playing in his position. We both know it.
QF vs. Dortmund: 1 goal in a 3-2 win. This is the only meaningful goal.
SF vs. Bayern: 2 goals in a 5-0 win. The goals came with his side up 3-0 in the second leg with away goals advantage. The tie was over.
F vs. Atletico: 1 goal in a 4-1 win. The goal came in OT in the 120th minute with the team up 3-1. Completely meaningless goal.
Pretending that this run was something special on the part of Ronaldo is a joke. You can argue it's his worst CL run. Stats don't mean impact.
The premise that Maradona was an “average” finisher in the contexts of his era is absurd: no one ever argued that, on the contrary. The guy was 5 times scoring champ in Argentinian league football and once in Italy. Furthermore, only he and Platini scored in double figures more than anyone else in the then 30 match league season for foreigners.
Yeah, I know it's a small sample size. I would never make such an argument . You're the one that brought up average gpg in Paulista vs WC 58 European teams. Don't back out now because I just exposed your argument. You made the point so own up to it. Don't come up with another excuse now.
And why do you say now, 4 matches is not a big simple size and your next line is Fontaine outscored Pelé ... I don't think you read what you write.
Your being totally disingenuous here and it’s actually really boring
Your last post explicitly stated
Messi’s 2014 WC was legendary/phenomenal/whatever
Reasons you listed
He won 4x MOTM
Led in chances created
According to you ronaldos CL season wasn’t legendary
He won 4x MOTM
Ronaldo led in goals scored by a 7 goal lead
Was the 2nd highest assister all tournament behind his teammate Di Maria
Scoring 15 goals in a single champions league season hasn’t been done by any player in champions league history
Ronaldo has done it 3 times.you don’t like it not my problem
Ronaldo semifinal match in CL was an awful performance and terrible to watch, another bad performance for Ronaldos in the final match.
Did nothing in the 2nd leg against Juve though wake up to take his penalty last minute, but he was awesome at the group stages, the second round and the first Juve match.
And why exclude Ronaldos world cups even though they are the most important, his performance at world cup was complete trash apart from the match against Spain.
I honestly don't think that is particularly true, and if you like I can give some reasons for that (on sunday I think). It starts with that he didn't take penalties (only one pk goal) and his registered shooting accuracy.
Here him beating some renowned elite defenders in the air, and placing the ball well. That's not 'bad' technique at all (esp. since it was his first or second try).
Other example: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17mddo
I'll not argue he's the greatest header ever of course, but he could beat elite defenders (in the World Cup final he created a scoring chance that way).
What goal or play did Neymar do that was better than Modric' goal against Argentina?
My main point though that comparing midifielders to FWs is tough. If you’re a forward and the focal point on a team full of world class players and drawn in to an easy group, the situation is set-up for you to succeed. You know you’re going to get 4 or 5 good looks at goal each game. For a MFer in Croatia? Not so much. You don’t even know if you’ll get one decent look at goal or if your team will advance from the group stage.
Surprising over-achievements always seem more likely in hindsight. Sometimes gotta take yourself back to the day before the WC started and consider how likely scenario A was compared to B,C and D.
That said, was it good/surprising enough for Modric to win the Ballon d'Or? Not at all.
For your benefit as Messi fans seem to follow this source blindly as does Tropeiro who loves to hate Portuguese players( but I like him only because he can be funny sometimes)
Vs juventus groupstage 2013
MOTM (rating 8.77)
3 key passes
2 long balls
2 shots on target
4 dribbles completed
Round of 16 vs schalke
MOTM award(rating 10/10)
2 key passes
10 dribbles attempted
7 dribbles completed
7 on target
1 hit the wood work
2nd round of CL semifinal
Match rating 9.1/10
1 key pass
7 shots(2 on target)
1 long ball
Final vs Atlético Madrid
Match rating 8.45
3 key passes
3 on target(2 blocked and 4 off target)
4 defensive clearances which was more than any player not named Sergio Ramos or Diego Godin
The data doesn’t leave much room for speculation
It is completely disingenuous for you and others to keep on claiming
Ronaldo scored the 2-0 or 6-0 goal with the implication behind this statement being ronaldo 13/14 was a player that can be purely defined by goals
Ronaldo led in goals with an all time record 17 goals
His 6 assists was the highest tally in the entire tournament with only Arjen Robben being able to match his assist tally
In addition to this he was a solid dribbling threat and you can see that from his dribbling stats earlier on in the season vs juventus/schalke he was injured against Dortmund in the QF and carried this injury into the World Cup playing against the advise of his doctors
He created chances,dozens of them(2 per match for the duration of the tournament),made solid defensive contributions etc
17 goals+6 assists in 11 Champions league matches is a completely insane statistic
And the craziest thing is that wasn’t even his whole game
He won the BD for this
For winning La Liga MVP,and singlehandedly leading his country to the World Cup
Well ... his goal vs Croatia in 2014 WC was from around the same range. His header against Mexico in that same WC was actually fantastic but the save from Ochoa was equally amazing. His goal vs Mexico in this last WC was pretty good because he started the play by dragging the attention of 3-4 defenders as he cut inside and then finished off from Willian's pass.
Forwards getting 4 / 5 good looks at a goal in a tougher WC match ? Not sure what you mean by good look. If it includes shots from outside the box, then I guess OK.
Yeah, I mean its subjective but not that subjective. "Good look" is pretty intuitive I would say. The one against Costa Rica is a useful example - outside the box, but still a good look. OTOH you can be inside the box and not get a good look if there are multiple defenders between you and the goal.
Well ... I don't see forwards typically getting 4-5 good looks in a tougher game. Not in the WC at least.
Okay, not sure what you mean by "tougher game" (tougher than what?). I was just talking about Neymar specifically.
Ronaldo didn't lead the 2014 CL knockout games in chances created and dribbles completed. Ronaldo might have scored 15+ goals in a CL season three times but all three of those were worse than when he scored 12 goals in 2017 which was BY FAR his best showing in the CL. Sometimes stats lie.
Are you denying that 7 out of 8 goals scored by Ronaldo in the 2014 CL knockouts were either superfluous or meaningless? If so, you're denying facts.
You then go on to use WhoScored rating to prove that Ronaldo had good games. The rating is affected by goals. If you score a penalty like Ronaldo did in the final, you're guaranteed an 8+ rating. Everyone who watched that final knows Real would have won without Ronaldo. Ramos was the MOTM in that one and it isn't close.
I think everyone knows Pele is a joke. Pele is fortunate his goal tally, performances, and his opponents cannot be scrutinized like modern day players.
With Pele everyone knows that whenever a player threatens his position he will think of anything to downplay his opponents. Every time Pele does this stupid shit it makes me question what he really did in his career.
In 2012 or 13 he said that Neymar was above Messi. He has criticized Maradona, and any future player threatening his position will be put down.
I'm not even going to debate his stupid comments