So far Messi has matched Ronaldo's Euro 2016 performance up to this stage. Only Ronaldo had the benefit of finishing 3rd and still going through. Truth
Correction. Ronaldo didn't miss a PK. Ronaldo also didn't quit on his country. TWICE! https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/lionel-messi-sergio-aguero-set-12764951 Nice try!
I stand corrected. If we're going off of sitters, I'll have to grab the collection of blown Messi sitters to prove your point is futile. I can also grab a catalog of Messi PK misses as well.
I was talking about that modern dynamic in the Pele v Maradona thread. I think that the World Cup has fundamentally changed over the years, and I think time will only further demonstrate that the World Cup no longer is a cup where less traditional nations are routinely bullied or dominated by more traditional nations. My theory is the following: the attacking players who play for the super-clubs are arguably getting tested as a result of the super-club disparity, because the average defender (or more precisely, the defensive tactic copied by the average clubs) is arguably getting better as a result of the long term exposure to the super-club phenomenon... because the lesser clubs have been forced to play defensively against the super-clubs, and the resulting excess of video evidence, the resulting abundance of collectively shared and passed on and improved upon video evidence that results after the long experiment of trial-and-error by the lesser clubs, in the form of lesser clubs systematically copying each other and therefore improving on the basis of which defensive tactics seem to work best against the dominant super-clubs that are buying off all of the attacking talent... With the above in mind: the average defender (or more precisely, the defensive tactics copied by the average club) arguably benefits from that dynamic... The attacking player who plays for the super-club arguably benefits from that dynamic... But how exactly does the average defender who plays for one of the super-clubs, benefit from that dynamic of disparity? It's difficult to rationalize how that super-club-defender could ever benefit from playing against peasant-clubs i.e. the clubs who sell their best attacking talent, not the clubs who hoard talent the best attacking talent. Maybe the unchecked disparity that continues to spiral out of control, maybe it isn't universally positive in all areas of the game... Maybe the reason why Real Madrid and Bayern Munich looked as defensively unimpressive as they looked in 2018, maybe that's the long term result of super-club-defenders not being tested by a league format that does not regularly exposes them to enough problem solving so as to be sharp for the big games? So I think that the World Cup, the Euro, and the Copa America, offer a counter-evolution to what is happening at club level. At the World Cup, the lesser national teams appear to be benefiting from the excess of video evidence that exists thanks to the disparity created by the super-clubs (that is, the disparity that forces the peasant-clubs into having to play defensive tactics, because if they play attacking football they just get routinely obliterated by the attacking wealth of the super-clubs), that is, the less traditional national teams directly copy the club tactics used by the peasant-clubs, on the other hand, the more traditional national teams have the better players but those players increasingly suffer from the "system addiction" created by the seemingly perfect conditions that themselves are created by the superclub phenomenon. In other words: the lesser clubs and the lesser nations have a fundamental thing in common, which is their intent to literally or figuratively park the bus against a more talented opponent. In sharp contrast, the superclubs and the supernations have a fundamental thing not in common, that is, superclubs enjoy an almost limitless capacity in terms of how efficiently they can facilitate and therefore magnify Ronaldo's or Messi's specialized roles, on the other hand, supernations have a very limited capacity not only in their capacity to facilitate Ronaldo's or Messi's unique roles, but also in terms of their limited practice time. We have seen this with Argentina 2010-2014, a star studded team that never played anywhere near to their on-papel-potential. Ribery's France was another great national team on paper, but in reality they always looked dysfunctional on the pitch, almost if not certainly as if they were still conditioned and even addicted to their respective club systems. Spain was successful, but also incredibly lucky (e.g. won several penalty kick shootouts vs. Italy at Euro 2008, vs. Portugal at Euro 2012, and was also generally lucky at times), not to mention that a lot of fans didn't liked how Spain played at World Cup 2010 -- it certainly was more defensive and technical, than it was beautiful. When was the last time that a national team with great individual talents, actually looked great at the World Cup?? My conclusion: the World Cup, the Euro, and the Copa America, I think it is becoming more and more difficult for star players in general but especially for star players who play for the supernations, to shine as brightly as they could in the increasingly distant past, back when the super-clubs had not yet inadvertently created the excess of trial-and-error knowledge that the less traditional national teams are currently benefitting from. The disparity that helps the superclubs is at the same time playing against the supernations. We are basically witnessing opposite reactions or opposite evolutions, at club level the rich continue getting better and better (in attacking terms, not necessarily in defensive terms), but at the World Cup, the Euro, and the Copa America, the less traditional nations look better and better with every passing cup tournament. In other words: If this debatable counter-evolution continues, we fans will have to seriously and carefully reconsider how we rate Ronaldo vs. Iran, compared to Ronaldo vs. Spain, because at the current pace, scoring goals against Spain is actually easier than scoring goals against less traditional nations who defend with 7-8 players.
Please do. And while you're at it, also tell us why Barcelona repeatedly fails when that happens, and why Real Madrid repeatedly does not fail when that happens.
Croatia has been very impressive, and Nigeria today just further proved how well-rounded and highly competitive Croatia has been so far. On the other hand... What I increasingly do not like about Messi, is when he is not a playmaker and also not a forward, as he was vs. Croatia. Messi needs to pick a role, and stay with it. He is a playmaker or he is a forward -- he can't be both with this mediocre Argentina team, and a player as intelligent as him in my opinion should correct his current trajectory of trying to be a playmaker and also a forward when Argentina cannot offer him the service that he needs to be the Messi that we know and love. My tactical approach if I was the coach of this abysmal Argentina team: I would pack the midfield with Ever Banega, put Messi in a deep-lying-playmaker role of sorts and would force him to stay there, force him to defend even more than he did vs. Croatia and then hope that he can use his passing-and-dribbling ability to great effect in one odd run, and maybe not even play with a striker, maybe just play Dybala up front as a false nine who can offer more technique in the build up and who can offer also more of a threat from long range speculative shots, which Argentina will need, because Argentina's build up play is not good enough to create enough clear-cut chances. And if Messi doesn't like it my tactical aim, I would honestly just bench him, without a second thought, because even when he makes no mistakes, I think he is more or less pointless when he is neither a playmaker nor a forward as he was vs. Croatia. So I think Messi needs to pick a simpler and more rigid role, and stay with it. And given Argentina's surprisingly mediocre midfield, I would go with Banega and Messi to add more bodies to a flawed midfield that has so far only served to expose Argentina's flawed defense. Also, I think that Dybala is more of a threat from speculative/difficult long range shots than Aguero or Higuain are, so I would try to the best of my ability to find Dybala's place in that team. Or maybe the alternative: put Banega and Dybala in midfield, and have Messi roaming in and around the box as a false nine. But Messi trying to be both a playmaker and a goal scorer is just not working out for Argentina -- Argentina's platform is not good enough for Messi to be Messi, ergo, I think Messi needs to be intelligent and pick and stay with a more rigid role.
Half my family is from Spain and I've always supported Spain as if it was my own country, but honestly, I was so disappointed with Spain's continued lack of ability and lack of belief in themselves to secure a win vs. top quality national teams (Spain has not won any of their games vs. Netherlands 2014, Chile 2014, Croatia 2016, Italy 2016, and Portugal 2018), that I'm almost a neutral at this point. Honestly, I would be fairly happy if the World Cup Final happens to be Belgium vs. Croatia, so long as both teams play to their real potential and light up this World Cup. Above all, what I don't want to see is Cristiano Ronaldo and Co. getting VAR favors repeatedly, getting lucky time and time again, and ultimately forcing the footballing world to yet again watch a repeat of Euro 2016, which was boring as f-ck to watch. Above all, I would really really really like to watch a World Cup where players who do more than just score goals, light up the tournament. Neymar, Hazard, Modric, Isco, Iniesta (if he can roll back the years at least for one game), Messi (if Argentina survive), James (if Colombia survive), etc. A fun and exciting tournament would be a welcomed change, after the rather boring World Cup 2010, World Cup 2014, and Euro 2016 (especially Euro 2016, if I'm honest).
Is this some sort of reverse psychology or what? Real midfield hardly dorminated any crucial games in the CL knockout games, you can pick any random game including big La Liga games. Kroos has literally been average throughout the season, Casemiro wasn't that good, Modric wasn't exactly dominant, and Isco and Asensio flattered to deceive. Now despite not shining against poor Nigeria and just being exceptional against Argentina he probably deserves Ballon d'Or!!!!! If I didn't know better I'll say this is another one of the similar failed ploys like that of Neure, Ribery, and Buffon of trying to justify just one player who should win Ballon d'Or in a season where Messi is unlikely to get it. Even for these two games it still doesn't make sense.
Can’t dominate a midfield by yourself. If there is a player who has been consistently solid fir you guys it’s Modric no ?
What exactly did Ronaldo do in 2013 to deserve the Ballon d'Or?? Ronaldo was officially and also by fans widely recognized as one of the worst performers in the Champions League Semi Finals, Real Madrid's most important games. Not to mention the fact that Ronaldo also did not win a single trophy in 2013. So what exactly made him such a deserving BDO winner in 2013?? Honestly, Ribery in 2013 did more or less exactly what Ronaldo did in 2016, but of course when Ribery did it he was not rewarded with a Ballon d'Or. At any rate, it's quite funny how Ronaldo fans think that every argument where Ronaldo is not the deserving BDO winner that you think he should be every single year, basically any argument where Ronaldo is not seen as the deserving BDO winner is some form of "ploy" against Ronaldo, but then Ronaldo for some reason continues collecting BDO awards because the world is clearly plotting against him. Modric 2018 getting the BDO (after a good World Cup), would be more or less the same thing as when Zidane won the BDO in 1998 (after a good World Cup). Why is this some form of ploy against Cristiano Ronaldo??
It is an evidently poorly prepared team (ofc many of those players tend to underdeliver regardless). Those do rarely well in tournaments. Exceptions are Denmark 1992, Italy 1994 and arguably Holland 1974 (with Michels leaving mid tournament etc.). A scenario like Italy in 1994 is still possible for Argentina, but it doesn't happen often.
LMFAO ronaldo scored 2 goals + assist vs hungary 2 world class goals+ 1 world class pre assist i might add messi in this wc so far=a gazillion completed dribbles,1 million shots off target,no goals no assists
That's why I said up to this point. 2 games into both competitions. Ronaldo scored those 2 goals and assist in the 3rd game. Ronaldo was terrible in the first 2 games and missed a PK in a 0 x 0 game vs Austria. They both didn't score vs a basically identical Iceland. So if Messi does something in the Nigeria game, then they are on par. But I've seen Ronaldo girls already discounting Messi ahead of time if he performs against Nigeria discounting the opposition. As if Hungary were any world beaters.
in 2013 ronaldo annihilated Barcelona in the copa del rey semi final scoring twice(messi was largely a non factor).this was his 7th consecutive time scoring in el classico which is a all time record he scored again in the copa del rey final against atletico madrid before getting red carded he his led his country to the world cup with a 4 goals vs sweden which has been unanimously regarded as a legendary international performance scored 69 goals in 59 games with only 9 penalties add on 15 assists and we are talking about a remarkable level of goalscoring(solo goals,30 yard screamers,1 touch finishes ,headers and off course he was still a wc fk taker) trophies or no trophies ronaldo was a deserving winner of the 2013 BD and having a bad performance in the 2013 cl sf vs dortmund doesnt detract anything from the validity of his award.
Moderator Note: I just deleted two posts along with delivering two infractions for personal attacks. Cut the crap please some of you will find out how much shorter a lifespan you'll have on this thread and forum.
this is largely false.messi would have to have a monumental performance vs nigeria before we can begin comparisons. completed dribbles will not cut.it.TBH anything less than a hattrick will not be enough(or a masterful playmaking performance, not half chances that gonzalo higuain will be blamed for not scoring note nigeria are also not world beaters i hope you will acknowledge that
It’s poorly assembled as well due to the dictatorship of certain entrenched players that have complete control of this team. This is a situation that is out of control, it’s an anarchy, the manager is a clown, the top brass players call the shots, if they don’t agree with the coache’s decisions and instructions they don’t obey and fulfill their own interests. This has been going on for years now, that’s why so many managers have come and gone.
A winning goal or two will do. Or great assists with overall performance. Having said that, let's acknowledge the fact that he has already been clutch in 2014 WC group stage. And that Argentina are a complete and utter mess right now being on their 3rd coach in 4 years. I don't know if they sort themselves tactically at this point having played the first 2 games in completely different manner. Gone are the days Messi could easily glide through players by dribbling over and over. Of course they aren't world beaters and that's my point for some Ronaldo fans already throwing out a pre-excuse. Because in 2016, Hungary weren't either.
why would a single goal winning goal by messi warrant him a comparison with ronaldo vs hungary im going to be a tad controversial ronaldo vs hungary wasnt an inferior performance to zidane vs portugal 2000,djazic vs england 68 or platini vs belgium 84 considering portugal dont make it out the group without that performance i would say it deserves to regarded as a top notch international performance portugal went down 3 times and ronaldo responded 3 times. has messi ever lifted argentina in a similar manner during a major international competition?
Really depends on how the game goes. He came through in 2014 at least in the group stages. Let’s not forget also how convenient it was for Ronaldo because of the format Change where you could finish third and go through . Otherwise what would have been highlighted were his first two games and not the third .
why is the 2014 wc group stages relevant to this discussion ronaldo has already equaled messis single world cup tally with a game to spare. c.ronaldos world cup legacy has marginally surpassed messi(with a chance of increasing his advantage) by the end of this world cup ronaldo wouldve surpassed messi in most significant competitions messi is a greater legend at league level ronaldo trumps him at continental level,champions league and if he continues in this vein the world cup the messi ronaldo debate will be put to bed if ronaldo can lead his country to a semi final finish