trust me, i also believe that CL is the best and most prestigious trophy to win in modern day. i will take a champions league over a league title. but if barca go undefeated in the season that is some feat. in any case, i would rather have madrid`s 3 champions league in 4 years than barcelona`s 1 champions league with multiple league titles. at the same time, i also understand that the league requires more consistency to win. that`s obvious. real madrid was terrible in the 1st half of the season, even getting 2nd place in the group stage, yet they may win the champions league despite their many weeks of poor form. you can`t afford that if you want to win la liga.
highlights??!!! i`m a true football fan unlike yourself. i don`t watch highlights, i watch full match games!!!! i am a student of the game, i appreciate all aspects of the game and the content of the game. no player can be reduced to mere highlights. you have no idea how much time i have spent studying the history of the game, specifically the 50s and 60s. going back to the iconic madrid of the 50s with di stefano and puskas. i still have a lot to watch and learn about the history of the game but i don`t waste my time with highlights. as far as eusebio is concerned, i think the highlight of eusebio`s career is the WC 66. i watched the games to their entirety. eusebio was incredible!!! i actually rate his world cup as arguably the 2nd greatest of all time tied with garrincha`s WC 62. i put maradon`s 82 as the best world cup by a distance. but as far as eusebio`s play is concerned at club level, he is not a traditional poacher. and no way in hell did i ever say that. i said, that he is not the player that cruyff and maradona, or pele are, so stop putting words in my mouth.
And Mou is no longer associated with us thankfully. Simulation, diving.. Don’t remember seeing this in Barca before Guardiola to be honest.
@leadleader this may seem off topic but it has a lot to do with what we were talking about concerning messi and ronaldo`s mentality to step up regarding mentality. although, i still give the mentality edge to ronaldo, i have not taken messi`s situation until careful consideration. currently, lebron james is playing in the 1st round playoffs for the cavaliers. there are still several games to play before winning the playoffs. however, lebron has to do far too much for the team. in game 2 of 7 in the 1st round he scored 46 points with 12 rebounds and some good assists, though only 5. yet, despite this monstrous game, his team won only by 3 against a team that is no where close to a powerhouse. despite his 46 point monstrous game, he was criticized by a few for not having more assist in the game. yet, when he makes more passes, and doesn`t score more points, his teammates don`t carry their weight and they lose, like it happened in game 1 of the playoffs. the point is, the consensus is that if lebron continues to have to put in monstrous performances in order for his team to win, there is no way in hell that he can play big and show up in the later games against the more difficult teams (at least in theory) later in the playoffs. it just requires to much gas, and one player cannot consistently give so much when are large volume of games are being played over a long time. this causes me to come to the conclusion, that perhaps messi`s performance against roma was not that messi did not show up or have the right mentality but perhaps, he just doesn`t have the gas to keep saving barcelona`s asses every week. and when he does have a bad game the team cannot step up as madrid will usually tend to do if ronaldo has an off game, or as even portugal have done in euro 16. unfortunately, messi has not had this luxury even at international level. whereas before, when messi played for barcelona when guardiola was coaching, players like etoo, henry, david villa, iniesta, xavi, and alves could pick up the slack if messi had a bad game.
He influences Barca in La liga but cannot do so against a team like Roma in CL? You can say that it does not work all the time but there is a differece, the Roma game was high pressure, both physically and mentally, higher intensity, more was a stake, different tactics. The conclusion is that Messi is not as influential to Barcelona in these high pressure matches in comparison to his influence in Barcelona to winning La liga games.
Perhaps if he roamed around the box waiting for his team to create chances for him he could influence the game. I am not sure what's tough to understand that when a whole team completely underperforms, it's very difficult for an individual to make a difference. It's also funny to see Madrid fans mocking Messi's underperformance against top teams, when their team have been unable to stop him year after year.
^That was mocking to you ? Is difficult but not impossible for someone like Messi.. he’s had free kick opportunities, had a good chance at the end that he could not control.. Maybe I expect more from the best player in the world against a team like Roma otherwise he is simply just as good as Modric ..
Its not a debate.. it hasnt been for 8 years. You just lack deep understanding of the topic. You cant comprehend the context and essentially differences they both make on the pitch. The one is a clinical goalscorer, the other one completely changes the way you prepare against teams with him. For example, How can you possibly call 3 consecutive finals on an international level a failure, especially put a whole blame on the shoulders of a player who was undisputadely their best in that period? There is nothing bad about scoring "only" 4 goals in wc, even if all of them came in group stages, having "only" one gamewinning assist in KO, etc. If any other player had 3 tournaments in a row of such quality, he would be worshiped as a great international player for a long time. The case in point is Robben who had without the doubt worse WC(by any statisitcal metric or common sense) than Messi, yet is widely considered to have had an excellent tournament,.. the same logic apperently it doesnt apply to Messi, considering narative, he was pretty disappointing for not scoring a superhattrick in all games of KO. Back to 3 consecutive finals, when was the last time Brazil, for example, accomplished such feat playing copa americas and wcs? Its not easy and this Argentina has done it and it has been made pretty clear by last wc qualifiers what this Argentina team is capable of without Messi so what do you not understand there? How the you manage to find a sand of criticism for his work on international level. He is bringing the absolute best out of an average team with the pressure bigger than anyone has ever had before in history of football. As far as club success, first question is, since when la liga doesnt matter at all? Secondly, your post would make sense if both Ronaldo and Messi were having the same starting point in big games, in the sense that Real without Ronaldo and Barcelona without Messi are equally good teams. Thats just ridiculous assumption that you uncounsiously make. There is even a statistical evidence of that not being the case. Last season in la liga Ronaldo missed 8 matches, Real won all 8. The similar thing has happened this season, but with few draws taking place. While on the other hand Barcelona is lost without Messi and every single time he came from the bench this season (Juve grouo stage, Sevilla la liga, Celta la liga) he made immidiate, significant and visible difference. Its uncanny actually if you know anything about football, to think that a single player can be that influential. If you think that Ronaldo has in any way closed the gap to Messi in last few seasons you are not comprehending the concept of a team in football. Ronaldo has been very defined player for a quite some time now, so has been Messi, meaning that there is basically nothing Ronaldo can do to restart the debate that has ended somewhere in April of 2010. What we are witnessing right now is merely a formality and it wont change anything
Many do mock. You have crazy expectations. I’ve said this before , mentions free kicks is so damn stupid it’s not even funny . The best FK takers of all time only score 5 to 6 a whole season and you’re bashing Messi because he didn’t score a FK vs Roma. I mean ... what world do you live in ?
You must have misinterpreted my comment. At no point did I speak about either Ronaldo being greater than Messi, or visa versa. For me greatness goes hand in hand with achievements or what a player has been able to help his team achieve, everything after that is all about people's preference. My point is that if player X performs better than player Y against same caliber teams or in high profile games or tournaments he deserves more accolades than player Y who failed to deliver at the same stage/platform. The fact that I like or prefer player doesn't give player Y some free points or exonerate him from not performing at the same level as player X. There is absolutely no amount of spinning to get around this criteria. The problem on this forum is the moment you say player 'X' with the name Ronaldo, and player 'Y' with the name Messi. All hell breaks lose because people start catching feelings. Regarding the names that you mentioned ironically from my perspective the names of those players were not only elevated because of their elegance on the ball but being able to display those skills at the highest stages or high profile games/tournaments. For example, Ronaldinho was even more exciting at PSG but he is more remembered by his goal against Chelsea, performance at Bernabeu, and that England goal. Not many people will remember that he was good against e.g. Osasuna, Deportivo, Espanyol, etc, which is what many here want to forget. The same with Cruyff and his exploit in 1974, Maradona 86, etc. In essence what I'm trying to say here is performance in high profile games elevate players' status way more than what people might like us to believe. I have seen plenty of players who imo are were/are more skillful but aren't really remembered more. E.g. Jay Jay Okocha, Denilson, Ginola, Iniesta, etc, so I don't agree with the notion that Messi will be remembered more than Ronaldo because he's more elegant. Perhaps fans who only started watching Ronaldo from 2014 will come to that conclusion.
No just against Roma but in so many free kick chances he’s had in crucial games.. starting from the WC final against Germany in 2014. ( like Dihno against England! poster above me knows what I talking about) Perhaps he scores one in the next WC and shuts my mouth.
Stats are only good at presenting what you want to present. So let me add context to what you just said here and correct your wrong statement. Last season we probably had the best bench in the world.. in some matches our B team, with James, Morata, Kova, Lucas & Asensio was even outscoring our A team. We don't play equally talented teams in La liga so with this in mind it is expected that with such a strong bench we would easily beat these teams thus resting Cristiano for the most important matches. The same thing has not happened this season. We are actually out from the Copa del Rey competition because of this - we could not score more than 2 goals over two legs against Leganes, without Cristiano, a team that was recently promoted to top division. The last time we faced a lost in la Liga was against Espanyol who left us scoreless in a game that Cristiano did not play. And lastly, in important matches, I just showed here (previous page) the most recent example of that happening.. It was last August against Barca at the Camp Nou for the Spanish Super cup final.. Cristiano was not playing and we were tied 1-1.. Cristiano then came on at the 65th min and changed the game with his go-ahead goal, which shifted the momentum to our favor to win the game. Now, the last time Messi missed a good chunk of games from memory was not too long ago under Lucho and in that span of games - 9 total - Barcelona actually won 7 of them.. with Neymar and Suarez carrying the team. So if you are only talking about this season where Messi is indispensable for Barca under this new coach and without Neymar and comparing it to our last season where we had the best bench in the world, you are misleading. Also, if you truly believe that RM without Cristiano is as good as RM with Cristiano then I am sorry to tell you but the one who lacks deep understanding and not comprehending team football is you. I can bet my house that most pundits, football managers or objective fans will simply laugh at your statement. Or perhaps you are just trying too hard to be obtuse just for argument sake and failing miserably at it .
On the basis of this quote if I had never watched Barcelona or Messi I might be forgiven into thinking he happens to be one of those players who is restricted by his coach which is totally wrong. Messi, just like Ronaldo, even other players such as Hazard, and Neymar at PSG are some of the players who basically have total control on how they approach the game. They switch positions when they feel like it, don't do spade work if they feel like it, walk around doing nothing when they want, etc. So if they happen to lack impact in crucial games the blame lies solely with them as it is not like a coach will put a gun on Messi/Ronaldo/Neymar/Hazard to tell them to stick to a certain position. So in a way nothing stops Messi to roam around the box to wait for his team mates to create chances for him, Barcelona is not exactly West Brom and despite what many apologists will like us to believe they have world class players. A case in point is that the very same players without much influence from Messi were able to annihilate Madrid away from home. So in a way they only get to be worst whenever Messi doesn't perform. Reality is that Barcelona team is not full of slouches as some will like people to believe, the fact that they are unbeaten this season is enough proof, not dismissing that in some games Messi actually rescued the situation, but so is Te Stegen. The other fallacy is to try to equate the importance of el Classico to a CL knockout game which doesn't make sense imo. EL Classico might be the biggest football game in a year burn reality is that both Madrid/Barca they can still go on to win the league even if they lose both fixtures, while in a CL knockout the same logic doesn't apply. So if we agree that CL is the it for teams such as Barca, Real, Bayern, Juve, PSG, and Man City surely high pressure game will be CL knockouts rather than a league derby. Finally if I'm not mistaken Messi didn't really have significant impact in el Classico for a while up until last season "shirt game", so to one can't say Real is unable to stop him. Imo most of his top notch performance and stats were during Barca's peak period.
For teams like Bayern Munich, Juventus and PSG winning the CL is a way bigger achievement than winning their domestic leagues. That's because those leagues are not competitive and they are practically shoe-in's to take the league every single year. There simply aren't other teams of their caliber. In La Liga that isn't the case. Barca the last few years has had to deal with Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid, both absolutely elite teams (top 5) on a global level. Winning such a league and being the most consistent over the course of 38 games is very impressive. I'd still value a CL title a little bit more but winning either is very impressive.
El Clasico is a game where both teams bring it with intensity. Obviously it doesn't have immediate KO implication, but given La Liga can often be decided by less than 6 points between both teams, I'd say it very much has title implications. It's also a tie breaker and Barca even lost a title because of that just over a decade ago as you know. So that's what ? A full 4 games where Messi didn't have a big impact ? WOW !!! Last season's Clasico at the Bernabeu almost cost Madrid the league title and it wasn't a hindsight situation. They were fighting neck and neck and the game was towards the end of the season. After that game Madrid couldn't afford to screw up any games or they'd cough up the title. And BTW, Ronaldo has 2 goals in the last 10 La Liga Clasicos.
You are right. Those teams dont have any competition but winning la Liga means you were consistently better than two other Spanish teams.. but not better than Juventus, Bayern, or even PSG and City.. on the other hand winning the CL does represent being the best team in the world, specially if one team is winning it constantly. But undermining the CL or calling it overrated is what you typicaly would hear from a sore loser..
How old are you?? I'm genuinely asking because you sound like a 17 year old kid who will probably be a dumbass adult in 15 years time, because the level of stupid that your argument objectively is, is the type that not even time AND an education can fix. And I'm not even trying to insult you, I'm just stating a fact... Question: The coach creates the universe and the context where Messi operates, but because Messi can do whatever he likes in a universe that is not Messi's creation, that somehow means that Messi cannot possibly be restricted by the coach who created the universe where Messi operates in?? If Messi can do whatever he likes in a tactical formation that does not suit Messi... That means that Messi cannot possibly be restricted by the unsuitable tactical formation that was designed by the coach?? Answer: Football consists of 10 outfield players who play in accordance to a defined tactical system, so if Ronaldo sticks to his positions... And let's already assume that Ronaldo is an absolute genius at the art of positional sense and timing, so already we have to ask ourselves... who are we viewers to judge how Ronaldo moves and positions himself in any game, let alone an important game?? So if Ronaldo sticks to his positions, and Ronaldo gets no service, and Ronaldo therefore has no impact on the game, then the blame should not land solely on Ronaldo, because in fact, the blame lies rather explicitly with the rest of the team that collectively failed to offer what Ronaldo needs in order to have an impact. Blaming Ronaldo for not being super man is a bad argument... Football is a team sport. Furthermore, positional sense is one of the most consistent abilities, which means that when players like Ronaldo get no clear-cut chances at all, it almost always is because the team failed to provide him with clear-cut chances in that particular game, it very rarely is because Ronaldo's positional sense was bad in that particular game. In contrast, when Ronaldo gets 2 or 3 routine clear-cut chances vs. Juventus, vs. Atletico Madrid, vs. PSG, vs. Bayern Munich, etc., it's not because Ronaldo is THAT great at positioning himself, it's because the rest of the team are THAT great at creating clear-cut chances for Ronaldo... Being great at positioning is not supposed to create THAT many routine clear-cut chances in the big games, it might create you one clear-cut chance in one big game, but it should never consistently create 2 or 3 clear-cut chances per big game. At any rate: It had never happened in the Champions League, and it only ever happened in a very specific era of football where Real Madrid was the ultimate super-club, and where every other big club was a lesser version of their former selves. The amount of clear-cut chances that 32-33 year old Ronaldo gets in big games is objectively unprecedented in the history of this sport, this is a non-debatable fact, which when added to the fact that Ronaldo always was a positional genius, makes it obvious that Ronaldo's improvement in terms of positioning himself so perfectly that he gets to have so many clear-cut chances to score from... well it's not the result of Ronaldo's positional sense being THAT much better than it had always been in his Real Madrid career, instead, it's self-evidently (for those who actually know what they're watching) the result of Real Madrid being THAT great at creating chances for a lesser version of Ronaldo. On the other hand, when Ronaldo is repeatedly wasteful as he was vs. Bayern Munich 2012 and vs. Juventus 2015, games where he wasted several clear-cut chances, the blame lies solely with Ronaldo, because obviously Real Madrid did offered plenty of service and Ronaldo did nothing with it. Of course, Messi is so well-rounded that he could impact ANY game in ANY way so long as he is fully fit... But that does not mean that when Messi fails to have an impact, that the coach could not have restricted Messi because Messi does what he wants... Again: the coach creates the universe where Messi operates in, and if that universe is unsuitable for Messi, there is nothing that Messi can do about that in the long term because Messi cannot be 100% fit all the time, Messi cannot beat reality, in the long term Messi will be 80% fit for an important game and that is when Barcelona collapses, as has been the case ever since 2013. And it's not always necessarily because the system itself is bad for Messi, a lot of the time it was because the system heavily relied on a consistent dribbling outlet, and when Messi isn't fit enough to be that dribbling outlet that Barcelona needs, Barcelona collapses because Barcelona no longer has other players (like prime Iniesta for example) who can step up to the plate when Messi is beaten by reality. You are blaming Messi when Messi isn't great enough to fix systematic flaws that Barcelona's board of directors and/or Barcelona's several coaches over the years have not yet fixed. In very simple terms: Messi has the free will to do what he wants in a system that was created by a coach/philosophy, and that does not mean that Messi is not inherently restricted by the system... especially given the fact that that is literally what a system does. Answer: You are essentially saying that I can personally do whatever I like in this world that was created by some God or by nobody at all (who really knows), therefore if I get run over and killed by a drunk driver who was texting drunk and driving drunk -- that blame lies solely on me, because I decided, out of my own free will, to stand in the wrong place at the wrong time... That is how spectacularly illogical your entire premise is.
Dude you really have to cut it out with your insults..you are here telling people they sound like a 17 year old when the one here behaving like one is you. Any mods here?
It really depends in your take... You can make an argument that Real and Barcelona are the two best teams in the world and yet they haven't met each other in the CL since 2011. Being a cup format with straight elimination, sometimes luck of the draw, injuries, form, referees, personal things in players' lives etc. can influence who wins too. Some people were saying that Champions League should really be a league instead of a cup.
That is not the point. You are conveniently excluding it because Cristiano scored a crucial goal in a final that your favorite team fail to win .. and it was a classico. It is pointless to say “in la liga clasicos” when everyone knows that every time they two teams face each other they go all out for the win. I dont rank la liga “way below” CL ..just below.
LMAO that just makes no sense... Fact: Ronaldo 2014 was less important in the Champions League KO stage than Marcelo, Ramos, Modric, Benzema, Di Maria, were. How does player 'Y' being less important than 5 other Real Madrid players, somehow proves that player 'Y' is therefore greater than Messi?? Nobody in their right mind will say that Mesut Ozil 2014 was better than Lio Messi 2014 or Arjen Robben 2014, but Ozil did win World Cup 2014 playing an important role in the team. In other words: Greatness does not go hand in hand with achievements... No person in their right mind will ever claim that Karim Benzema is "greater" than Thierry Henry or Zlatan Ibrahimovic, but Karim Benzema most definitely has more Champions League "achievements" in his cabinet, compared to Henry and Ibrahimovic whom are only great at their respective leagues, and league football doesn't matter anymore does it? And for the record... Hell does not break lose because people start catching feelings... Hell breaks lose because people who can actually understand how bizarre this era is, actually try to speak some sense to the Ronaldo tribe all of whom apparently think that 'Y' always equals greatness regardless of what 'Y' actually did in the most important games. It is utterly bizarre that grown adults can be this level of stupid. NOTE: Ronaldo's importance at the Champions League KO Stage 2014 was below what Marcelo, Ramos, Modric, Benzema, and Di Maria, all offered in those 7 games. Of course... Ronaldo fans thought that La Liga was still very very important in 2014 (because Ronaldo was still amazing in it), and Ronaldo fans also thought that the Champions League Group Stage 2013 was also very important to the 2014 Ballon d'Or, even if the group stage literally occurred in 2013. And then Ronaldo was POINTLESS at the Champions League KO Stage 2014 and then again at World Cup 2014, but he still won the 2014 BDO because 'Y' equals greatness regardless of what 'Y' actually does in the games that actually matter. Ronaldo was Real Madrid's best player (in La Liga), which means that Ronaldo was likely to win the BDO so long as Real Madrid won the Champions League on the basis of winning games where Ronaldo did much of nothing... Stupidity at its very best.