Next Ballon d'Or winner that isn't CR7 or LM10 (and when)?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BocaFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3501 robnycus, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    Why not wait 20 years before making that prediction. You have no idea what most people would think 20 years from now.
    And why are so many of you so obsessed with the legacy lol - you remind me of my little nephew ..
    Messi and CR7 are the best players of this era. There would be great players in the future as there were great players before these two.. and great players before those..
     
  2. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    I said arguably better. Some people would go that route. Messi was physically better back then. More endurance and quicker but now he reads the game better. Personally I think he declined a bit maybe he's 90% of what he used to be now. Still his statistical output is 50%. Stats are situational like I said.


    Well said although I would make the argument that Ronaldo is more effective now than what he used to be. He adds more value to his team as a poacher than he did in other roles through his career. Not to mention that the less physically taxing style of play of staying in the box prolongs his career and keeps him fresh for the tail end of the season. He scores all the big goals and gets all the credit. It's literally the best possible outcome for him.
     
    ko242 repped this.
  3. DazerII

    DazerII Member

    May 27, 2011
    Before I even question the logic of comparing individual sport (tennis) and team sport (football) how did you come to a conclusion that Nadal has been "a better clutch player" compared to Federer? Are you referring to head-to-head stats or some sort of theoretical criteria that you've invented for the purpose of this debate? I'm asking this because that idea in itself, i.e. comparing team sport to individual sport sounds illogical. If the argument was about style/elegance then it will be appropriate for this debate.

    Another fallacy in this forum is the idea that being more talented/elegant/eye pleasing/etc automatically qualifies a player to be the best. Personally I believe in the notion that one is only as good as their last game. This means Peter Crouch will deserve to be a Balon d'Or winner if he performed better than Messi/Ronaldo in 2017 irrespective of how talented these two are known to be, simple as that. And the question now will be how do we evaluate their performance over a specific period? Imo, the best way to evaluate them will be on their performance on the biggest or the most high profile games during the said season, of course their performance over the season in less important (low profile games) will also be weighed in. This means Lebron, Curry, Durant, etc, or in individual sport Federer, Joshua, or Usain Bolt can only considered to be players of the year based on their performance during those specific seasons, and the decision will also rely heavily on how they performed on high profile games, i.e. Playoffs, Grand Slams, Diamond league, Masters, CL, etc.

    So in football being unplayable against West Brom, Getafe, etc will totally be overshadowed by being dismal in CL knockout games. Irrespective of who the player is. Stating that Ronaldo/Messi were s**t when their teams got knocked out in the CL is not trashing their legacy. To me it makes no sense to try to be a spin doctor for players who don't need my bias assessment to define their legacy. Unfortunately for some here, certain players should be exempted from criticism, which is absurd.
     
    robnycus repped this.
  4. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    I missed the Madrid vs Bilbao match. Did anyone watch it? Ronaldo fans are giving him credit for the back heel while others are mad at him for stealing Modirc's goal
     
  5. DazerII

    DazerII Member

    May 27, 2011
    I watched the whole game which I felt was a best illustration of the importance of dribbling vs. actually scoring a goal. Madrid and the likes of Modric, Marcelo, Asensio, even Lucas had so many brilliant plays but unfortunately there was no end product "goal". On Ronaldo's goal I felt it was all about Modric but the replay showed a clear deflection from Ronaldo back heel. Having said that I dint get the impression that he was claiming it as for Madrid the focus was on getting the second goal to win that game.

    As much as Ronaldo is obsessed with scoring I doubt if he will intentionally try to steal that sort of goal. Having said that the media was so quick to award it to him.
     
  6. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Yeah. Kepa was great
    You can watch it here 4:15 and see for yourself if there was a back heel kick or not.
     
  7. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    He is more influential because his circumstances in pas few years allowed him to be just that. If you look at it objectively you will notice that Ronaldo is having much more disappointing performances on the big stages, and by that i mean he manages to make a fool out of himself by missing many great chances. He missed the chance vs Croatia, he missed 3 chances vs Poland, last el clasico he was missing a lot, not to mention el clasico from year ago, all those gifs of him missing sitters, against psg as well, even when he performs he manages to miss great chances, like vs bayern year ago, missed two tap ins, or vs juventus after scoring bcycle kick he missed couple of 1v1s.. while you can count Messis big misses (from open plays) in past 4 years with fingers of one hand despite him not "performing" well..
    Thats due to circumstances. When Messi doesnt make the difference its because his team most likely was tactically outplayed and he just couldnt breath being double marked for 90 minutes, not because he goes on a missing streaks.. cant be said the same for Ronaldo.

    Again, as Darko beautifuly said, goalscoring tallies are situational more than anything else.

    So that: he is more influential thing should actually be: Real is amazing recently allowing him to come big im big games.
     
    leadleader repped this.
  8. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3508 robnycus, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    You are just making excuses for Messi.
    What you are saying is that Messi not being influential is the team’s fault and Not his sub par performances in important matches (a team that is currently undefeated in La liga) and that Cristiano is not influential but that it is the team that is making him look good. Lol.
    If this is not bias than I dont know what is. Talking about being objective.. get real.

    You want to talk about Clasicos.. let me remind you that in the spanish super cup last August at Camp Nou we were tied 1-1 and we didnt look like we were gonna win that match.. then late in the 2nd half Cristiano comes in to game and did this.


    And you are clearly exaggerating about our recent form just to downplay Cristiano’s influence in the team.
    We were outplayed by Juve in the 1st leg and what saved us was that early opportunistic goal and the bicycle kick.
    We also did not trully dominate PSG.for example..
    We just seem to want it more than the rest and fight until the end and that gives us a slight edge..

    If we were this amazing we would not be this far behind in la liga .. or have so many poor results early in the season when Cristiano was in poor form.
     
  9. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    When fully fit Messi still is an amazing dribbler, the problem is that his fitness, let's call it his dribbling-fitness, is inconsistent at 30 years of age. One day you might get Messi vs. Chelsea 2018. The next week you might get Messi vs. Roma 2018. And what's particularly harmful about said inconsistency, is that Barcelona's entire system collapses when there is no consistent dribbling outlet, which is precisely what happens when Messi isn't fit enough to be elusive (i.e. to dribble consistently). Possession play when you don't have consistent dribbling outlets, means that you will get countered a lot, which almost certainly means that you will concede more goals than you normally would, etc.

    Actually, now that I think of it, that's probably a big part of why Pep Guardiola's teams tend to collapse at the Champions League... the lack of a dribbling outlet during April and May. For example, Kevin De Bruyne did a lot of dribbling reminiscent of Zinedine Zidane, Kevin De Bruyne was consistently good for most of the season, and the cost of that consistency was clear in April and May, when De Bryune was no longer 100% fit and therefore when De Bruyne was no longer the elusive dribbler that he is known to be any other day. It's not a lack of "winning mentality" as much as it is a lack of fitness, which he needs in order to be elusive, that is, in order to be the consistent dribbling outlet that he was for much of the season. Possession football relies heavily on consistent dribbling outlets, and consistent dribblers have a known tendency of getting injured and playing with injuries during April and/or May.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is nonsense. Both LM10 and CR7 have had multiple seasons where they rank on top (or near the top) of 'clear-cut chances' missed. Also when excluding chances that were created by themselves. You can't count them with "one hand".
     
    ko242 repped this.
  11. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Fully agree with all of the above, my point was... Prime Ronaldo would have been even better given THAT same role in THAT same Real Madrid team. Prime Ronaldo was virtually exactly as good at positioning and at reading the game, except prime Ronaldo could dribble a lot more and was also a lot faster with and without the ball, which helped him score some goals that he wouldn't score at 32-33 years of age.

    But yeah, as was demonstrated in 2016, Ronaldo can literally win the BDO on the basis of only one good KO game at the Champions League, even when he did literally nothing in the Semi Finals and the Final itself. And so Ronaldo doesn't need to be consistent at league level and he also doesn't need to be consistent at the Champions League, he just needs to score a couple big goals in at least one KO game. Nobody else in the history of the game has won the BDO on the basis of doing so little...

    If Real Madrid wins the Champions League 2018 and Ronaldo does basically nothing in the Semi Finals and the Final, Ronaldo could very realistically win the BDO purely on the basis of his one outstanding game vs. Juventus in the Quarter Finals. That is how low the bar is for Ronaldo... He gets to play for the best Champions League club, and he only needs to show up for ONE game in the KO stage... That is unethical in my opinion. The disparity between what Ronaldo needs to do and what everybody else needs to do, is plain and simply unethical.
     
  12. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #3512 leadleader, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    Messi has wasted a lot of clear-cut goals in the average game, that is, across the board... That much should be obvious. But in the Champions League KO stage, Messi barely gets any chances to score... Maybe the "one hand" remark is a bit of an exaggeration (or maybe not), but Messi really hasn't had a lot of clear-cut chances in the big Champions League games over the past 4-5 years. Messi just doesn't get 2 or 3 routine clear-cut chances vs. Chelsea, vs. Juventus, vs. Bayern Munich, vs. Atletico Madrid, etc. Ronaldo gets that... Messi does not get that anymore, in fact, it's been a long time since Messi last enjoyed such a benefit.

    At any rate: How many clear-cut chances would you say that Messi failed to score in big Champions League games, over the past 4-5 years?
     
    ko242 and Sexy Beast repped this.
  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #3513 Sexy Beast, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    Of course youve manipulated my words.. its not worth talking to you.

    Think about it.. i am not talkng about overals here, i am talking about moments in which they make a miss after a miss basically humiliating themselfs. Ronaldo has moments after which you start doubting his worth because things he misses at times are hard to believe to say the least. I am not saying Messi doesnt have bad games or something like that but the fashion in which they have them it's quite different. Ronaldo fairly regularly makes himself look like a "fool". Do i really need to link to all those moments?
     
  14. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #3514 zahzah, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    To be honest I feel that there is a strong argument for both players.

    But Messi fans are just so irritating, because they tend to claim it isn't even debatable. It is. Ronaldo has without a doubt outshined Messi in the past few years, while Messi's legend has been taking hit after hit after three failures in a row at international level and massive underperformance year in, year out in the Champions League. Messi has been so poor in so many Champions League games in the past 3-4 seasons that it is hard not to see the trend.

    In all honesty in the past few years Messi has been no better in the Champions League than the Hazard's or Bale's of this world.
     
    robnycus repped this.
  15. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The difference in knockout game goals by Ronaldo vs Messi, especially from the 1/4 final onwards is not even funny anymore. Messi isn't even anywhere close to Ronaldo.
     
  16. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    And this season he was playing with only Suarez up front without Neymar. They’ve played a 4-4-2 formation on most games so is not like he is no longer the go to guy to deliver the goods ..
     
  17. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    #3517 Bavarian14, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    A team that that is currently undefeated in La Liga with sheer luck & influence from Messi & Ter Stegen

    Failure is a strong word to throw around Messi's International career. He has been the clutch player for Argentina a lot more than Ronaldo has been for Portugal.

    Hence the WC 2014 Golden Ball, Copa 2015 MVP & Copa 2016 2nd Top Scorer

    He has been poor in the 1st leg against PSG, 2nd leg Juve 2016-17 season. Both leg against Roma 2017-18. That's all
     
  18. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    We all know the reaction to Messi's WC Golden Ball. He never should have gotten it. It was not a merit based decision.

    A lot more than that. A lot more.
     
    robnycus repped this.
  19. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    #3519 ko242, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
    I gotta agree with sexybeast. You are always the first to criticize Messi and I don't be remember you giving praise to Messi, when deserved.
    I'm not attacking you but I am just telling you what i see.

    You talk about 6-7 years ago, when Messi last deserves credit but that's not the truth. In this season and last season Messi was by far and away Barcelonas best player. And anytime Messi carries Barcelona on his back on the way to a league title you always say he plays good against the 'minnows' of the world and the small teams despite Ronaldo playing good in the championship league. You haven't given credit to Messi even when it's obvious.
     
  20. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Just my opinion, but i think Messi's best years are from 2013-2018. As an all round player his game is another level than it was before. To be even more specific 2016-2018. Messi has never had to carry a team as he has in the last 2 seasons (excluding Argentina). Personally, I love intelligence and overall play than athleticism as far as football is concerned. Of course, Messi was always intelligent though.
     
  21. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    I think there is some value to your point. Although, Messi is a better player, it seems like you are saying Ronaldo may be greater at least in the past few seasons based on CL performances rather than league performances. League requires more consistency but CL requires moments against generally very high caliber teams.
    Regarding your argument about being pleasing to the eye over pure effectiveness, Leadleader made a point earlier that players with dribbling, playmaking, and ball retention are regarded as the best and most memorable players in history. People will remember Cruyff, Maradona, Pele, Ronaldinho, and others more than the Gerd Müllers and Eusebios of the world. Just as teams like holland in 74 will be more remembered than Germany in 74. In the same way that guardiola Barcelona in 10-11 that didn't win the treble will be far more regarded than Enrique's Barcelona in 14-15 that did win the treble.
    For some reason there is something about football that cannot be recorded with statistics that will probabaly always be more highly regarded than pure statistics. Regardless of what we think. I'm not saying that it's 100% correct but it is what it is
     
    leadleader and celito repped this.
  22. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    How the hell did you conflate Eusebio with Gerd Muller? Have you ever watched highlights of Eusebio? He never was a pure goal poacher. And Eusebio is considered among the top 10 ever.
     
  23. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3523 robnycus, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
    Yes, Messi is by far barcelona’s best player in la liga and therefore I expect him to deliver against a team like Roma or Juventus last year just like he does against similar teams in la liga.
    I said many times, I dont follow Barca and I am Madridista so you are not going to see me praising Messi a lot . This thread has to be balanced and I think you will agree that for the most part most here are always bashing Cristiano and highlighting Messi’s greatness.
    Now, if this thread has gone on for so long without anyone complaining why Cristiano is criticized so much while at the same time winning Balon D’ors then I don’t see what the issue is when it is Messi the one getting criticized for his shortcomings.

    And about CL and La liga my opinion is one that is shared by many, most I would say.
    Winning the CL is the goal of all of the top teams and for some teams that never won it, it is their biggest dream.
    It is the competion with the most emotions, the most thrilling matches, and the highest competition because both teams go out to win therefore tactics are different - perfect example is Roma against Barcelona.. they went out there and performed at a level than they probably don’t in SerieA, raising their bar to the highest level, leaving their hearts out on the pitch. And guess what, their great efforts for those two days where highly rewarded.. In la Liga most teams park the bus against Barca and Madrid because they play only to try and tie and not concede a ton of goals whereas in CL you wont see those type of matches too often.
    Without a doubt winning the Champions league means being the best team in the world and most pundits and fans around the world will tell you that is the case.

    I dont know but As a fan I would feel worse if my team had been knocked out of CL in QF but still winning the domestic title than the opposite. Specially for those top teams who have a goal to win both competitions.
    Ask any Bayern or Juve fan and see what they tell you. If they prefer their team winning the bundesliga or serie a over a champions league throphy.
     
  24. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3524 robnycus, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
    People will remember the players and teams that impacted you the most . My era started with Maradona so I wont be remembering Cruyff, Eusebio, etc.. but I will be remembering Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronaldihno, Romario, Baggio, Zidane, Batistuta, Figo, Raul, Zamorano, Henry, Van Basten, Guillit.. all of these guys who already retired were great and many others who I didnt mention as well.
    You say Pep’s Barcelona 10-11was great and to me the one before that under Rikard was better, when they had the dutch connection +Dihno, Deco & Eto.
    Dihno was applauded at the Bernabeu for his brilliance (respect>impact>memory)

    IMO Pep introduced baiting players for cards, simulation, reff crowding & diving into a team who didnt use these dirty strategies before .

    You see how people have different perspectives and how different teams/players cause a different impact ? and it is based on that impact how the memories get created.
     
  25. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    what???? pep introduced baiting players for cards??? simulation??? reff crowding??? diving???

    i`m really starting to believe @leadleader. you seem like a barca/messi hater. did you not see what barcelona did to real madrid at the bernabau, when they beat real madrid 5-0!! ramos just kicking the sh*t out of messi to get a red card and pushing puyol as he left the field.

    there are people who think that game was the best display of football they have ever seen!!!!! mourinho realizing he could not compete on a football level, decided to commit to thugery with pepe and ramos. he started alonso, pepe, and diarra as the 3 midfield, the next time they played barcelona in the season. mourinho with his poking barcelona coaches in the eyes and further thuggery to the team.

    everyone has there own opinions, but i can guarantee you, that more people will remember guardiola`s barcelona, than any other before, especially in 10-11. and again, despite enrique winning the treble with barca in 14-15, that barcelona is not remembered and will leave at best faint memories.

    barcelona succeeded in a time where players like xavi, busquets, and iniesta could not thrive when football was moving towards players like maicon over small and technical players like dani alves.
     

Share This Page