Next Ballon d'Or winner that isn't CR7 or LM10 (and when)?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BocaFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    He literally scored pk in CA 2015 final that he missed in 16.. they lost in both cases.. demostrating the absurdity of the claim that Messi would have won it if he was "clutch" from the spot. Even if he scored it, other Argentinians would have bottled it as per usual.

    He sometimes scores them sometimes misses them, is he the clutchest pk taker of all time? No.. does it matter in bigger picture? No.

    I dont see the point in discussing this at all cuze its such a small part of the game. Its much more important what you do during 90 minutes on the pitch. If he was missing all of them that would be a problem, but he is around the same percantage with clutch and unclutch pks.. so pointless.
     
  2. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    I will tell one thing so we can end this. If Messi retired today he wouldn't be in the top 3 greatest of all time arguably. If Neymar retired today he wouldn't even make the top 50.

    Messi is leaps and bounds above Neymar. Period.
     
  3. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Aguero doesn't have a history of showing up in big moments, especially in CL including and not limited to the His play with Argentina. He's good but he is not the type of player you say, if we had him then we would have had a chance at winning champions league.
     
  4. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    984687142508019712 is not a valid tweet id


    Messi’s low goal tally here in comparison to the others on this list and to how many goals he scores in the Liga shows That Messi is not contributing much in these knockout matches and underperforming.
    It could also have something to do with why Barcelona have only won one CL in the last 7 seasons...in the same period they’ve won 4 la liga titles.
     
  5. DazerII

    DazerII Member

    May 27, 2011
    His focus at that stage of the tournament is more on the most important aspects of football like dribbling, passing, through balls, and creating chances. I'm not expecting you to understand because you lack basic understanding of football. It is not about scoring but completing passes and some of the things that you won't understand. Anyway the main issue is not him but other issues such as poor coaches, poor team mates that are dragging him down to their level. Other than that and if you understand football you'll see that these stats don't actually tell you anything.
     
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  6. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3456 robnycus, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
    I watched and play futbol all my young life and I am probably older than most here who only appear to have begun watching the sport when Guardiola and Messi brought great success to Barcelona.

    Messi is a great player and I am not denying it. I am simply telling you that he does not play at his best in knockout CL games (in the last years) or for Argentina.
    CL is very hard too win and that is because you always have to be at your best, whereas in La Liga you can afford to have a bad game against a team that is not going to take advantange.
    What you are not telling here is that you are calling his teammates poor and the coaches poor when these same teammates and coaches have contributed to winning la liga 4 times and in the case of Lucho, Suarez & Neymar a treble.

    And by the way, someone who consideres dribbling as one of the most inportant aspects of football tells me you are the one who knows very litle about the sport.

    We only have one player who is a great dribbler in our team - Marcelo- and he is a LB.. now you go figure how is then possible that Real Madrid with this handicap (lacking dribblers) is able to win 3 CL throphies in the last 4 years.

    To say that in CL he “only” focuses on playmaking and not scoring is dishonest and an excuse .. because in La liga he plays the same, which is why he is great, he creates for others as well as scores ..
     
  7. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Oh hahaha.. I got it. ;)
     
  8. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    History means nothing and it doesnt equal future.. there are countless of examples to prove that. We tend to make such connections in order to explain certain things that are hard to grasp at first, but that's all nonsense. Reasons why Aguero doesnt have a big history of that kind are different to popular beliefs like, he doesnt have a winning mentality, he is not a leader, he is not clutch,.. all nonsense.

    If you have time to rewatch any of the two games go and watch only Gabriel Jesus, his movements, passes, everything. He was truely disappointing in both games and if they had Aguero's class in only few of those moments, tie would go in completely separate direction, i am sure of that.

    Aguero would make a big difference.

    I mean is it even questionable that Aguero is much better than Jesus and that better player means better team? It's not even a big claim on my part, but common sense.
     
  9. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If La Liga was easier to win, how come Madrid have only won it twice in 10 years ? Last year they won it because they had a ridiculously stacked bench. It would be true if La liga was a 1 team league. But clearly it isn't. In the last 10 years you can afford very few slip ups to win the title.
     
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  10. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I seriously do not have the patience to argue with a guy like robnycus. Winning the league title requires tremendous hardwork, whereas CL’s format doesn’t require the same consistency or hardwork due to the format. League matches are played every week until the season ends, whereas CL consists of only 7 games. I’m not saying CL isn’t important, but to say winning the league is easy is like saying passing Medicine or CPA exams is a piece of cake. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-city-premier-league-tougher-champions-league
     
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  11. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Dribbling and off the ball movements are the only things that make things happen on the pitch and dribbling being the more significant of the two cuze it involves ball. Dribbling is also the simplest way to create moments in which you outnumber oppositions because when you make a successful dribble it means that there is a player less in defense of oppositions. A successful dribble always initiates chances, no matter where it's made.

    And did you seriously just say that a team, with players like Isco, Modrić, Bale, Ronaldo, Asensio,.., has no dribbling power on the field?
     
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  12. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    How the hell isn’t dribbling one of the most important aspects of football? Pretty sure robyncus never even played football otherwise he wouldn’t make such gibberish statements. If you think football is all about scoring lucky tap-in deflection goals then please quit watching or playing football. I’m not even surprised that a Ronaldo fanboy would make such a moronic statement.
     
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  13. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    So, Modric, Isco, Kovacic, Asensio, Kroos, Ronaldo, Bale etc play Cricket?
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Messi assisted two of those Neymar goals, and he assisted one Suarez goal (rebound shot).

    Suarez two assists for Neymar, with no assists vice versa.

    None of the Messi goals were assisted by either Suarez or Neymar.

    So Neymar got a helpful boost towards 8 goals, while this is less true for Suarez/Messi.
     
  15. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3465 robnycus, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
    The most important things are passing, positioning (of the ball movement), Vision and technique (first touch, holding up the ball, finishing)
    Dribbling Is important but most goals scored are not created because someone dribbled past a player or a few players.. If you go back and check, most of our goals scored in CL knockout stages, goals where dribbling was involved are very few.
    Isco is a good dribbler but his lack of world class vision limits his end product.. Here is a clear example of how dribbling is not the most important thing in the game..There are many situations where making a final third pass or take a shot on target is way more beneficial than dribbling past a player because when you do you lose the opportunity of a defense that perhaps was not well positioned..by the time you take the ball and start dribbling the defense now has repositioned it self making it more difficult to penetrate.
    Modric is a good dribbler but that comes second to him, he mostly does it when he is trying to clear an opponent but rarely uses his dribbling as a method to create goal scoring chances.. that is what his throughballs are for..
    Bale and Cristiano good dribblers? What Real Madrid games have you been watching?
     
  16. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    We are talking about clutch sutuations.
    La liga rewards consistency and deph more than anything else.. CL imo rewards teams and players who have great moments in knockout games. Those who have a bad game or games go home.. is that simple. To me that is the definition of clutch or influence in big matches.
    I did not say winning la liga was easy. It is not..
     
  17. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    #3467 ko242, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
    of course aguero is better than Jesus at this point.

    Aguero is 30 years old and he has no history of showing up in big games. If he is not available to play a big game should we just discount all of history and give the benefit of the doubt to aguero?
    Of course history means something. It says what a player is capable of doing and what you can expect of him. Aguero has played several years by now. Of course, it is possible that he could have had the one time when he actually shows up but why would anyone give him the benefit of the doubt if he has never showed up before. Otherwise, it's just all speculation.

    Regardless of our reasons for aguero not showing up, the fact is, he hasn't showed up. The reasons are irrelevant. In the same way Madrid fans don't care what Ronaldo does before games or how he thinks when he shows up in big moments. The fact is, that he does. And he has a history of doing it. History is all we have. We cannot see into the future
     
  18. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Madrid just had a bad game at home and didn't get knocked out. There is some leeway in CL even in the knockout rounds.
     
  19. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    #3469 robnycus, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
    It wasnt nearly as bad as how Barcelona played against Roma.
    We never gave up .. we were all over Juve in the last 15 minutes.
    Had we given up we wouldn’t have advanced.
    Didn’t you say Neymar didnt have a good game against Psg last year outside his two brilliant moments.. In CL you dont need to have a good game if you deliver a great goal at the end, which is all everyone was asking from Messi against Roma.
    It seems like Messi fans prefer and reward 20 great dribbles in a game over someone who was silent for most of the match but brought home the bacon with a great free kick goal + a great final assist to give the team the win in the final seconds of a match..very weird.
     
  20. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Barca didn't give up. They just aren't a physically imposing team. They tried at the end to press and had a couple of dangerous chances.
     
  21. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Sometimes you get those chances and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get them and piss. Messi was already very clutch vs Chelsea in a tie that Barca looked fairly in trouble. But no player executes 100% of the time. Ronaldo wasn't having a bad game IMO, but it took a bit of a gift from Benatia to get him the PK to score. Credit to him for rising above the defender to give the ball to Vasquez. But I remember him also wasting a pretty good header late in the game that he at least typically puts it on frame.
     
  22. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    It would be if scoring goals by dribbling past defenders was how most teams win games.
    PSG just scored 4 goals against Monaco in the 1st half.. two headers from crosses into the area, a beautiful finish by DiMaria (tecnique) and a tap in (off the ball movement, passing)

    Dribbling makes you go wow and it is a beautiful aspect of the game from an aesthetics perspective but I can assure you Managers dont rely on their players’ dribbling skills to win games.
     
  23. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    This is football.. https://streamable.com/fgi2k
    This goal has everything that is most important which I just described above.
    Hold up, passing , off the ball movement, positioning and tecnique(Pastore’s cross) + finishing.. (clinical header)
     
  24. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Barcelona didn't give up because they never even put the effort and intensity in the matches. You don't have to be physically imposing. Aggressiveness is all you need. In both legs Roma was more aggressive than Barcelona. They wanted it more and they didn't feel entitled. Of all the great teams, guardiolas Barcelona was the least physically opposing but the most aggressive and devastating defensively.
    Barcelona was a disgrace because after 75 minutes in the 2nd leg, they finally got their first shot. Roma was by far the better team and deserved to go through.
     
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  25. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Where did you read that i said dribbling is the most important thing in football? You are completely on the wrong track.

    Passing without off the ball movements and dribbling is pointless, its dead possesion. Nothing will happen. Only times oppositions defense is challeneged is when there are dribbles and off the ball movements.
    Off the ball movements are ever-present so they in overal have a way bigger impact on the game, but comparing a single off the ball movement versus a single dribble, dribble is way more influential, it's a quick, "simple" way to make chaos in a structure of oppositions defense, which is the ultimate thing you wanna achieve in the game, chaos.. that's the place where you score goals.

    Passing itself is pointless, thats why Barcelona is not winning champions league in first place. They make a lot of pointless passes, which, btw, is not something Guardiola's phylosophy is meant to do, its different, its passing with purpose. Barcelona in recent years is an example of passing without purpose.

    Anyhow, you are way of with your estimation of how valuable Isco is. Real wouldnt achieve any of those things in past year and a half without him. He was perfect vs Juve in first game and with his dribbling abilities he brought the different dimension to the game.
     
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