New York Times: The Dark Side of American Soccer Culture

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by Warbuxx, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. Warbuxx

    Warbuxx Member

    Jun 23, 2002
    A curiously miopic article from the New York Times Sunday Magazine. Tries to make a serious point but with very little understanding of the nuances and complexity of Soccer in America:

    Entire article is online at:

    www.nytimes.com/2016/07/17/magazine/the-dark-side-of-american-soccer-culture.html
     
  2. spatz

    spatz Member

    Feb 3, 2013
    #2 spatz, Jul 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
    Well, the writer is certainly right that organized groups of American soccer fans should not mimic some of the worst traits of European soccer fans. It still is, however, a badly written article, but that might just be what happens when a writer focusses entirely on a single, very small aspect of fan culture. He even excessively quoted from a nearly 30 year old book, seemingly not realizing just how much has changed in English soccer stadiums since then.

    Of course, to this day, there are racists among soccer fans, be it in the US, England or Continental Europe, but no more than in most other sports. Or society in general, for that matter. The way the writer tries to portray violence and racism as integral parts of fan culture is almost desperate
     
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  3. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Two or more separate fan cultures seem logical if so many American and U.S. based soccer fans are primarily fans of another country's national team or league. Of course you hope for more cross-pollination in MLS demographics, but again, it seems pretty natural that MLS is going to be a hard sell if, say, you're a Mexican-American who's been following a Mexican club for your whole life. Perhaps not-so-obvious Euro wannabe fan behavior could sway more of these fans. But then again so could MLS's CCL record not being embarrassing compared to Liga MX.

    Kind of a weird article. I'm still wondering what in the world the average "stunted American male" upset over changing U.S. demographics has to do with the very worst examples of Euro football hooliganism.
     
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  4. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not weird when you realize that the writer was merely trying to rail against the average "stunted American male". Soccer hooliganism and Euro-snobbery was merely a niche pretense for broaching the subject. The other articles on the bottom that popped up (at least for me) were talking about how Trump is a god-send to insular White Americans and other such politically-charged drivel.

    When you look at it in that context, it makes a lot more sense. Sports being talked about here is merely a pretense for more political ranting.
     
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  5. Warbuxx

    Warbuxx Member

    Jun 23, 2002
    Gunnerfan, except that the article is from the New York Times Sunday Magazine, which is a respected publication. It looks as if it is from the July 17th edition which should show up on newsstands tomorrow included with the Sunday edition of the New York Times, if I'm not mistaken.
     
  6. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't care who's publishing it. I was merely commenting on the piece, with the opinion that this poorly-written article (something that no publication is immune to) was written to espouse political views, not for the sake of American sporting culture or soccer culture in the US. And that opinion, considering the other articles that I saw on that page, seems to make sense. Certainly the author seems to have started with a premise (e.g American soccer fans are racist Euro-snobs), and has written an article intending to show that premise as correct.

    I don't know whether or not MLS fans are more or less racist than other fans, or whether or not the "stunted American male" is attracted to 70's Euro hooliganism, but this article did little to inform me either way.
     
  7. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is also a very left-leaning publication. Another article by the same author is "The Unbearable Whiteness of Baseball", where "whiteness" is being used as a derogatory term to mean stilted, boring and racist.
     
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  8. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you are going too far the other way. While I don't think soccer fans in the US are more racist than the US as a whole, that is not true in large parts of the world (particularly Eastern Europe, but soccer fan groups have also been accused of stoking racist-nationalist sentiment in Korea and Japan).
     
  9. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which, let me be clear, I don't care about. I'm from a Blue State (and a Blue part of it, not the Central Valley/OC). It could be left-leaning or conservative, both are obnoxious to read within a sporting context.

    I just hate seeing ostensibly sports-related articles used as political rantings. It happens 100 percent of the time with ESPN's "Undefeated" section, and it's not something that I particularly enjoy seeing. Which is why I skip those articles more often than not, present article excepted simply so that I could comment about what I read.
     
  10. spatz

    spatz Member

    Feb 3, 2013
    I know what you mean, I thought about that myself while writing the comment, but I still believe it is true. There are certainly fan clubs with a high percentage of racist members, or clubs that are known for having more racist fans than others.

    Lazio fans are famous for having many fans with strong sympathies for the facism, but then again, there is also Livorno, just the opposite.

    Regarding Eastern Europe: are Russian football fans really more racist than Russian ice hockey fans? Or are there simply less black players in the KHL? I would argue that the high number of racist incidents in Russian soccer simply points to a relatively high tolerance of racist attitudes in Russian society in general.

    I don't know anything about fan culture in Japan or Korea, so I cannot say anything about that.
     
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  11. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Ethnic international players love playing here in the US because they face less racism here in the United States from soccer fans then anywhere else.

    Racism is crazy in other countries. Look at Brazil dark skinned Brazilians are looked down upon by lighter skinned Brazilians.

    Plus they have more freedom here to get around without being recognized.

    I used to travel a lot when I was young. Now that I am older I only leave the house when I have to. My wife of almost 50 years tells me we don't go out together enough.:)

    I do go to Germany 3 times a year to see my Grandson my daughter lives there. My grandson is more fun then seeing my daughter. The Germans I see don't have much associate with the Muslims in Germany. A lot of Turkish in Germany they are the lower class. I like the Turkish people even here in Brooklyn. They have their own adult soccer clubs. They don't have youth teams. So I get them when I had youth teams. I like there football, but I like every bodies football. I like there restraunts. They have tomatoe soup that is so thick it tastes like Ma's gravy. The thing I don't like about the Turks in Germany. The Turkish waitresses speak better English then I do. :)

    Have to tell you about my Grandson 6 yr old. There school is a co-op in German to be In it parents have to help. You think there not racist all the kids in it are white no Muslims. They actually think there not racists.

    My grand daughter just graduated public grammer school. She is going into HS. Graduating class looked like the United Nations. They actually all said the pledge of allegiance to our flag. I guess no one sued her school as yet. Out side everyone took pictures of all the kids together and in groups. Everyone was happy.

    Yes this is a racist country if you don't believe it just ask the people in the United Nations who oue us billions they will never pay
     
  12. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Russians here in Brooklyn most love Putin they perceive him as strong. Even my ex son in law but he was from the Ukraine. Russian soldiers entered their country Putin wants it back. He doesn't care he still loves Putin. I am glad they are divorced. Incidently he is a NYC cop. He tried to be an air port controller a better Union job. They let him go I was really afraid to go out side when he was. I was afraid I might get hit by a plane.

    Since they are kind of white and they are under educated their racists. I am kind of white and I am definately under educated I don't consider myself a racist. But if you ask my over educated daughter in Germany graduated with honors from Columbia university I am. I never seen her with a minority in Germany. Her under educated father paid for her Columbia education.

    Oh I always play our football when I am not home can still do it. I sometimes play with 30 & 40 yr old Russians in Marine park. When I go there they fight to get me on their team. Want to know why they only run when they have the ball. I run when I don't have the ball they just think they can play.
     
  13. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The times their editorial people think they know about everything. They don't they love Martin Luther kings HS soccer team. Well I know there team and their coach. They have good players but how do they get themz. I will say not all of them just happen to live where the school is ask their coach how they got them.
     
  14. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The Guardian did a nice assessment of the piece, noting that a game in Seattle is nice, but hardly representative. I would note that while I agree the England copycat thing can be annoying and seems kind of odd for a US club, there is a substantial non-Euro presence in a number of, and I think most, MLS clubs.
     
  15. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are very polite in your choice of adjectives. I would have gone for something more like "astoundingly stupid."
     
  16. bostondiesel

    bostondiesel Member

    Oct 23, 2006

    Guys...everyone. The article is awful..I have no nice words for it, its hilarious. Some things the Times gets right I suppose, this is right there with their Duke Lacrosse coverage...

    I love NY, I love New Yorkers but sometimes only "they" get certain things... This is a little too high minded for the rest of us...

    Mind you there is a serious point somewhere I just believe this guy did not focus correctly.

    Oh well try again guys....Hey just to show you I'm not biased your other paper "the Boston Globe" is equally as uppity and useless.
     
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  17. bostondiesel

    bostondiesel Member

    Oct 23, 2006
    The MLS experience 99% of the time is so annoyingly milquetoast to someone my age...

    Listen its not "right" by todays standards, when I was a boy if you went to a Celtics\Knicks game things were not even close to "safe"... The Bruins...you were not safe inside, you were not safe outside....Patriots fans would get chained to the fences because holding cells did not exist....

    Get ready for this folks....All that created history and drama and cannot be separated from the lore that grew each sport....

    Today sporting events are families, families that can afford the ticket prices!!!!

    Nothing in this article about the US pricing Brazilians\Mexicans\ and US families out of arenas.....
     
  18. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The sum total of the author's research is a book on 1980s hooliganism. That says all you need to know about it.
     
  19. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Yeah, the author's "dark side" amounts to an anti-racism sign in the Sounders' stadium as well as some fan groups borrowing questionable chants. The latter of which is probably more cheesy than anything else. Like a 13 year old decked out in punk attire purchased at the mall. They're in it for the surface aesthetics, not decades old culture and all that it entails, both in positive and negative senses.
     
  20. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Terrible article, not because of the conclusions but because there is nothing behind any of the conclusions. He quotes one chant that in itself is not racist. Then goes on to point to small signs about not using racist language. Which raises the question? Are those signs just there for Sounders matches? I know at Charger games they always make an announcement reminding fans about the "Code of Conduct", and specifically saying no racist abuse will be tolerated.
    Does that mean Charger fans have an issue of racism.

    Anyways no point in rehashing all the issues.

    One valid point that is raised by the article if only be accident is when does "passion" go to far? One persons amazing atmosphere can be someone elses' intimidating mob.
     
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  21. MLSinCleveland

    MLSinCleveland Member+

    Oct 12, 2006
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How old do you think someone should be to attend a sporting event?
     
  22. bostondiesel

    bostondiesel Member

    Oct 23, 2006
    Here it would depend on which event and what time. I took my guy to baseball and soccer at 5, he is 9 now, much different atmosphere now.

    If I were to bring him to NFL I would talk with him before the event, 70,000 people and sobriety at a premium...He has no desire so lucked out there...

    I took him to International soccer and I had to chat with him, that its not "like" an MLS game...Mexico vs Portugal and I had to tell he and his friend that soccer is very different elsewhere...

    Anyway, totally what your individual comfort level would be...In response to the article, I have been to MLS in several cities...I literally see infants at Revs games....
     
  23. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Personally I prefer a more laid back atmosphere if I'm actually going to a sports event. The whole supporters group thing seems too much like work. :p
     
  24. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've gone back and forth. When I first moved to DC and began going to games in late 2002., I was usually on the "quiet side" surrounded by families and casual fans, and it kinda sucked.

    At the end of the 2004 season, I eventually moved over to the supporters group side and really liked it. Beginning in 2005, I was a dues-paying Barra Brava member and got somewhat involved, including playing a drum and helping with tifo, policing use of flags, etc.

    Now, I'm a little too old for it. My wife is more likely to want to come to a few games with me--we tailgate with friends and then find someplace quiet-ish where we can sit and watch.

    Not saying I'll never stand with the supporters again, particularly for games I go alone to--but my back and feet appreciate the sitting more these days. Plus, it's easier to avoid sitting somewhere surrounded by bored parents who openly don't care about the game. In 2016, even the "casual" fans are likely to enjoy soccer and care/understand what's happening on the field at least a little bit.
     
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  25. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would it make sense to have family-friendly sections with no alcohol sold or allowed to be drank and where you could be ejected for language that kids shouldn't have to hear that is allowable in most of the stadium? How would you feel if you were a parent who took his or her son(s) and/or daughter(s) to a game, the children heard bad language without knowing how inappropriate or offensive it was, and then you get a call from your child's school that the child used inappropriate language that he or she learned at a game (not necessarily soccer). If you know your child heard inappropriate language, you could explain that to him or her, but sometimes once a child hears a word it's too late to stop the child from calling somebody else that word, and you as a parent explaining the word(s) could be like closing the door after the horse has escaped.
     

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