Game for a revival? Trio of local businessmen eyeing Lansdowne redevelopment plan, CFL's return, Sun learns By DEREK PUDDICOMBE -- Sun Media Three high-profile Ottawa businessmen are at the centre of a plan to revamp Lansdowne Park. The Sun has learned Roger Greenberg, chairman and CEO of Minto Developments, John Ruddy, the president of Trinity Development Group, and William Shenkman, chairman of Shenkman Corp., another large, Ottawa-based property development company, are part of a group considering a redevelopment proposal for the property. The plan so far would include an agreement with the city that would leave the municipality's hands clean of any financial responsibility for the property, including a 75-year lease with the city. It would entail a complete renovation or demolition of Frank Clair Stadium, with the possibility of replacing it with a modern sports facility because the group is currently in talks with the Canadian Football League to bring back professional football to the city. The redevelopment plan would also include preserving the Aberdeen Pavilion, possibly including a plan to renovate the inside to make room for a round theatre for the performing arts. Residential development could be a component along with an idea being floated by Parks Canada to connect the 18-hectare property with the Rideau Canal. The redevelopment could generate as much as $12 million a year in property tax revenue for the city. Greenberg said he wouldn't comment on any possible opportunities that he or his company might be involved with for Lansdowne Park. Innes Coun. Rainer Bloess confirmed the group is interested in redeveloping the land, but he wants to see a business plan before he makes any decisions. "We need a strong commitment from the CFL and if the right investors are there it's something I'd encourage," he said. Mayor Larry O'Brien said earlier this week a group of local businessmen with "deep pockets" has initiated talks with the city and the CFL to bring football back and redevelop the park. $1M ARTS DONATION Shenkman recently donated $1 million toward a 500-seat arts centre in Orleans, which, when completed in 2009, will bear his family name. The Greenberg family donated $2.3 million for the construction of the new Great Canadian Theatre Company, which opened earlier this month and is named after family patriarch Irving Greenberg. Ottawa 67's owner Jeff Hunt said any group wanting to bring a CFL franchise back must have a credible proposal in place before going public because the capital's football fans have been burned too many times before. "If I was giving advice to a group it would be to only make an announcement when a team has officially been granted," said Hunt, who was poised to become the frontman for a Toronto group looking to revive the CFL in Ottawa before its money man became ill.
Considering two CFL teams have folded in Ottawa in the last little bit, why would anybody spend millions of dollars to build a stadium, millions of dollars to buy a team just to lose money? I have a toilet they could flush all that money down.
Both of the failures of the CFL teams in Ottawa are directly attributable to the ownership. The first time around, a series of absentee owners managed to flush 120 years of history down the drain. The second time, the original ownership group failed to put an improving product on the field and so was never able to generate the critical mass of fans needed to get things going. The second owners of the Renegades were simply morons. Ottawa still has thousands of football fans who will come out. All they need is an ownership group that is committed, knows how the generate a little buzz, and can put even a 0.500 team on the field by the second or third year.
Re-read the article. The owners are looking to redevelop the site, complete with possible condos and an entertainment hub. The stadium would be a piece of the puzzle. This would be a revenue generator for the new CFL team making it more financially stable. They aren't flushing money down the toilet. They are really planting seeds for harvest.
The second owners were, technically, the ones who killed the Roughriders in the first place. When they bought the team, everyone who cared about football in Ottawa shouted "NO!!" and then cried. A little while later, the Renegades folded, as was expected from the moment Gliberman bought the team.
I think that the original OP was hoping that there could be some hope for an Ottawa soccer franchise out of all this. Based on the personalities involved, these 'investors' that Mayor Larry is wanting to get into bed with don't strike me as 'footie' guys. They strike me as old school gridiron fans. As a person living in Ottawa, I don't run into many CFL fans these days. Like baseball, it appears to be a sport that Ottawa has declining interest in.
Same here (as I also live in Ottawa) One thing I believe the Ottawa Citizen had suggested, during the under-20's, was turning Landsdowne into a Soccer specific stadium, and then turning the baseball field where the Ottawa Lynx played into a football field for possible CFL teams. I don't know if that was viable at all though. I think it'd be smartest to just make one really nice field that can be easily converted from football to soccer, or vice versa. But I mean, we don't have a CFL team to use it, nor do we have an MLS/USL team. So...-shrug-
no smart person would admit to being a CFL fan. But it would be nice if Ottawa got a MLS team or USL team at the least. They supported the U2o very well.
And no one of intelligence would make such an uniformed, stupid post which ratings and attendance would prove otherwise. Beast, are you back again? I know you love starting those those biased, trolling polls.
I am a CFL fan. There, one smart person just admitted to being a CFL fan. It seems your "point" has been refuted. Getting back to soccer, can anyone with some knowledge on the topic comment on the appetite for soccer in Ottawa at the club level? I know the city did well with the U20 but that's a pretty special event. As far as I know, the highest team currently playing is the Fury in the PDL. How do they draw? At what level might an Ottawa team successfully be supported?
we need proof. Where's your degree in smartology? Or maybe smartassery? smartgineering? sorry, I love bad jokes. Need someone to do polls on that kind of thing. It's really tough to say. While most of my friends and colleagues aren't big CFL supporters, there aren't that many who seem to support soccer either. I know there's a few at work, but usually it seems to be the usual type. The "immigrants" (we're all immigrants at some point, but I really just put the quotes because it feels really rude of me to call them that. I have nothing against them, I'm stating a fact). I think we could support a team at the USL type level, but it depends on how things go to tell for long term. I mean, when the Ottawa Lynx showed up, there was tons of support. They were getting 8-10k most games for the first few years, but then with the troubles of Baseball, with the loss of the Expos as their MLB parent team. The realisation that most really good players go from AA to the MLB anyways (Vladimir Guerrero, for example)...so baseball died. Soccer...well, it has better chances of success. They don't play as many games, so the novelty doesn't wear off as quick. The Ottawa Lynx played 143 games this year. If we had a soccer team they'd play what, 25? You're much more likely to have 10k people 25 times than 10k people 140 times. It doesn't have some of the problems that baseball does. It's not an American sport, it's an international one. Baseball doesn't attract as many types of fans. It's the north americans, the central americans, and the Japanese, basically. Soccer will bring anyone. Soccer doesn't have huge drug scandals. They don't have very prominant lockouts/strikes. As in, I don't know if there's ever been one, but I heard a lot about the one's in Baseball, Basketball and especially Hockey. So if there's been one, it was under the radar. The baseball lockout/strike really hurt attendance in Ottawa and Montreal. So yes, I think a USL level team could survive for 7 years. After that, it's a question of marketing and success. Even the Senators would have gone away if they hadn't dragged their sorry asses out of the basement.
Baseball stadiums are such awkward beasts. I was in Ottawa this week and there was some talk of trying to get another baseball club, probably of the A or AA level. They've got to do something with that stadium. If you look at the photo, you can see how awkward a thing it is for use for soccer or football. http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=e....653272&spn=0.002538,0.005021&z=18&iwloc=addr B
Oh I know, they're pretty stupid. Don't you love some of those MLB ones? There's one where you reach where the center field wall should be, but then it slopes up into this silly crescent. Slopes up? What other team sport plays at different altitudes. And they're all different dimensions anyways. Hockey it's always the same, so is football. I'm less certain about soccer, but I figure it's probably just camera angles, or the difference between a university field and a pro (or semi-pro) field. But anyways, I think the plan might have been to demolish it as well. Or maybe to expand it out somehow....who knows, who cares. It's not a bad stadium, but the parking lot is small (or so I hear) and baseball sucks. The plan did not involve taking Lynx Stadium and using it for both baseball and football, which would be a bigger pain than using the Big O for soccer, I think.
I don't know Lynx Stadium apart from seeing it on Rogers, via Google Earth or from driving by it but based on what I've seen, they'd have to extend on side of the stadium to give one full sideline stand with the other side being behind one goal. For amateur or semi-pro soccer, that would be fine. Don't know how that would effect parking though.
As Lynx stadium is apparently under consideration as a future soccer venue, I have no problem with this thread. B
Ottawa had the National Capital Pioneers in the old CSL that didn't draw well, with a name like that you couldn't blame the fans. they lasted 2 seasons at most with a name change....can't remember what to. Ottawa only seems interested in Hockey. But a USL team might fly with good owners.
Yes, a terrible name. They became the Ottawa Intrepid after one season (in 1998) and existed for two years under that name then folded. They never averaged more than 2k per year either in Aylmer, Quebec (1987) or at Terry Fox (88/89).
I would slightly disagree. There's plenty of CFL and NFL fans in the city that would support another CFL team. The problem is, it has to a: be competitive (so better than Hamilton at least) b: not be owned by someone related to, or a friend of, the gliebermans. There is not 1 person in Ottawa who supports the Gliebermans, and nobody wants to see them within 100km of an Ottawa CFL team. I can't guarantee soccer, but I do think it would. We had plenty of baseball fans, but they weren't really great fans. Showing up to 145 games was just too much. But as I said, soccer's only about 20-40, so I think that we'd have plenty of fans showing up. As well, Ottawa is very diverse like Montreal and Toronto (perhaps not as much, but we're still diverse) so we'd get fans who don't like football, or baseball. It just has to be at a high enough level to be interesting.
IMO Ottawa could not support even a USL team. AA baseball failed, CFL failed, Ottawa wizards (CPSL) failed, NHL very nearly failed a few years ago before Melnyk bought the Sens. Even during last years playoff run the Sens had to make an effort to get rid of tickets into the semi-finals. Do you know anyone who has been to a Fury game? I'm not sure what it is about Ottawa that the residents can be such poor supporters of their organized teams. The sens are very close to being the best team in the league, yet they'll only sell out games against well-supported opposition like the Leafs, and the Habs.
Have you ever been to the Corel Centre? It's not even in Ottawa, it's in Kanata. We're talking a 40 minute drive from downtown, considering the traffic. It's in the middle of nowhere. The baseball was AAA, not AA, and there are reasons why it failed. The team never got the big names like Vladimir Guerrero (went AA to the MLB). It's baseball, and rather boring. They play 143 games a year. You have to understand, in some sports you have to fill the stadium with both fans and just people going out to a game. Baseball didn't have enough fans to fill the stadium, and there aren't enough people who just feel like going out to a game with 143 games. If there's only 25 games, you'll get a lot of those. The other thing I've mentioned is that the Lynx had about 8000 fans, on average, for the first few years. If you see wikipedia's article, they say "During the club's last years, it had difficulty attracting fans,". Last few years, which means they were successful for a while. So what I'm saying is, if a boring sport like baseball can be successful for 5 years, i.e. 720 games (okay, 360 home games), then the #1 sport in the world should be successful for 5 years of only 130 or so games (65 home games). After the first 5 years, they need to be successful on the pitch, in marketing, and in ownership. In terms of the NHL failing though, while Ottawa nearly failed, so did Calgary and Edmonton. Winnipeg and Quebec DID fail. It wasn't a question of the fans, it was a question of the economics. Revenues were too low, while spending had to be high to field a competitive team. And if you don't have a competitive team, those high ticket prices mean you get even less people showing up. Lower ticket prices, and your revenue drops even more, so your team quality goes down more, and people stop showing up. It's a vicious cycle. Note as well, while Montreal never failed as an NHL team, Molson did have to sell it because of the same problems that were occuring in Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg and Quebec. I'm less certain about Vancouver.
Yes, I've been to the Corel centre many times. It was an extremely easy and cheap bus ride from anywhere along the transit way. I've also driven from downtown and it was a 40 mins drive WITH the game traffic. "40 mins drive" to a game is nothing except an excuse to not support a very successful team. How long do you think it takes people in and around Toronto, Montreal, NYC, LA to get to a game? I'm guessing 1.5 hrs is not at all unheard of. From the first time I went to a Lynx game in 2001, I knew the franchise was doomed. As I walked towards the ticket booth, a woman was trying her best to give away 10 tickets. Meanwhile in the stadium, the 800 or so of us were all having a boring time. I don't think the initial team success in the Ottawa Lynx would transfer to any franchise in the city. It's interesting. If nothing else, it's another example of how fickle many Ottawa sports fans are. I don't know the underlying reason the Renegades failed, but I do know they had trouble packing the stadium in their 1st and 2nd year ($99 seasons tickets!). That stadium is centrally located, yet people still didn't show up. No "40 mins drive" excuse applicable here. Yes, smaller franchises in the NHL were having problems in pre-lockout years, but the Sens have trouble getting people to games even when they're winning the President's trophy. Cheap tickets and a successful team should mean a sold-out stadium, regardless of how finances are going behind the scenes. I would love to see a USL or MLS team in Ottawa, but I believe it would take a championship-guaranteeing team full of Beckhams, a Soccer-specific stadium on parliament hill with free valet parking, iPod giveaways, and finally a Nike-sized marketing force to sell out that stadium to the Ottawa sports fans in the near and long term. I hope that it happens though, because Ottawa is a beautiful city.
In Montreal and Toronto the games are in the downtown areas. I believe there's a metro stop beneath the Bell Centre. You've got plenty of people living in the downtowns who have easy access to the arenas, and it's a central location. The Corel Centre is not a central location at all. If you're driving from Orleans, it's supposed to be 30 minutes with normal traffic. Basically, it cuts off half the city. Well sure, in 2001. The team has been around since...92 I think. So you've completely skipped the first bunch of years. You've gotten past the parts where the city loved the team, where Baseball was new and exciting, and past the parts where the Expos were a competitive team (well they were in 94...). The fans in Ottawa loved the Lynx because they were the baby Expos, so when the Expos got hurt big, so did the Lynx. The Renegades is still a different story. The Ottawa fans weren't ready to trust the CFL yet. They were still bitter over the Roughriders. If the Renegades had come out and been competitive (I'm not saying they had to win the Grey Cup, but they had to make the playoffs) in the first couple of years, then fans would come out. I don't think that a new CFL team in Ottawa would have any success unless Jeff Hunt owns it. He has done wonders with the 67's, so I think he might convince Ottawa fans to go to the football games too. I don't remember the tickets ever being cheap, but I've never been a Sens fan. Part of the problem with the Sens is that when they came into Ottawa, half the market was Montreal fans, and half was Toronto fans. They had to convince the young, the fans who didn't know better yet. They had to steal children from their parents teams, basically. Which works, but it works slowly. This isn't like putting a team in Dallas (which is actually successful), where you have an entirely new market. But with Soccer, it would be an entirely new market. I've lived in Ottawa for my entire 21 year life, and I've never heard of the past soccer teams. All you need is good marketing and I think a USL team would succeed. I agree with you there, although the bigger it gets, the worse it gets, sort of. 1 million people is a nice limit for a city, keeps it small, but makes it big. Smaller than Toronto and Montreal, but bigger than Wawa and Timmins, you know?
I've heard this a million times from Ottawa residents and Sens "fans". Half your population does not live in Orleans, or east of the 174/417 split. Not everyone who goes to games in Mtl, Tor, NYC, LA are residents of the downtown core. Some people commute for hours just to see a game of hockey at the highest level, with ticket prices equal to or higher than in Ottawa, but with a much lower on-ice product. Let's face it, it was not difficult to find interest in Baseball when the Jays are winning the W.S. and the Expos are fielding competitive teams. The fact that support died down after 5 or so years, and after the Expos got hurt, shows what I've suspected all along, there were no genuine Ottawa Lynx fans - just general baseball or Expos fans. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Ottawa sports fans can't just love their hometown team. "It has to be owned by Jeff Hunt", "can't be owned by the Gliebermans", "my mom's friend's uncle has to sell popcorn in the south stands", "has to have a convenient and centrally located stadium" - or else they can't support the highest level of the sport available to the city. You can get to a Sens game for $28. To me that is fairly cheap for the highest level of the sport in the world. In pre lockout years I went to games for $20 - an extra $5 or so for door-to-door public transportation. Anyone in Orleans should know that the transitway is available from Place d'Orleans. IMO it would be much easier to grow a franchise in an area that already loves the sport, rather than grow a franchise and sport in an area that knows nothing like Dallas. So I guess that point goes in favour of support for an Ottawa USL team. On the other hand, I recognize your point about the Habs/Leafs fan base, but I think marketing could have taken care of that 15 years ago in most other cities. Soccer should be successful in Ottawa, but it's likely Ottawa soccer fans will be divided by L'impact (MLS in the future) and TFC because they're bigger clubs. I believe the Ottawa sports fans would totally reject the team if it were not in the highest league possible. I can see that you want a team, but ask yourself if you would consider paying $300 for a season tickets to a first year USL team (L'impact tickets will be in that range). Then try to think of the rest of Ottawa's soccer players/fans, subtract a large percentage for Ottawa-hometeam handicap mentality (my only real point all along), and I don't think you'd arrive at a figure large enough to support the team. You'd end up with what they have in Kansas City, where the Wizards players have go to the Zoo to giveaway tickets to the game.
Dude... Where do you get your stats from??? I just looked at Wikpedia which breaks down every game (with attendance figures) and the average attendance for 2006-07 season was like 20,090 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006-07_Ottawa_Senators_season I see a few games in the 13-15K but most of the games are 19-20K which is pretty much a sell-out. The way your painting the picture is that the average attendance is much lower then it actually was. Many teams in the NHL would kill for those kinds of figures. This doesn't dispute your original argument however it does show that Ottawa can support a strong professional team, something the Renegades were not throughout their existence.