New Politics Thread

Discussion in 'AC Milan' started by Falc, May 18, 2016.

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  1. totti fan

    totti fan Red Card

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    Would you agree that the Catholic clergy is predominantly right-wing
     
  2. Falc

    Falc Member+

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    The Catholic clergy is a mix just like society. There are both liberals and conservatives among the Catholic clergy and the current leader is no where near the right.
     
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  3. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

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    #16478 Gilbertsson, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    Not really. Maybe in Southern European countries. But, in northern Europe, religion is official state religion: England, Netherlands, Denmark...they also seem as right - wing, conservative and against the new settlers. There were a lot of cruel wars between Protestants (Calvinists, Anglicans, Lutherans) and Roman Catholics. Orthodox Christian clergy is much more right - wing, because they are state religions, not something global. Order Societas Jesu is often right - wing, many Franciscans and Dominicans are also right - wingers. But there are left - wingers among them.
    In Central and South America, clergy can be either right-wing and left-wing.
    The current Pope isn't so conservative and right - wing oriented like several previous Popes.
    In Roman Catholic circle, society is divided between those who observe everything through dogmatic fields, those who are members and without any clue about their religion, tradition, mainly because their ancestors belonged to the same faith. They go to the Church, they accept all sacraments, but without any awareness and knowledge why do they do this? Many people think that the world exists 2019 years. Many of them don't believe in science. There is also a circle of people who are Roman Catholics, but with the grain of doubts in context of authenticity, historic facts...traditionally they are Roman Catholics, but with question marks above their heads and they investigate the facts written in Old and New Testament.

    Recently, I watched this movie:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Egyptian_(film)

    The story of Sinuhe reminds a lot on the story about the Moses. There are writings online about this similarity.
    There are claims that the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Noah, kings David, Salomon are not historic facts. Some say, that these stories are just a reflection of one era, time, period, where one ethnic group ended in sorrow, so they wanted to have strong moral and influential figure so that they can resist, become stronger and overwhelm tyranny.

    In new era, there are many mythological stories about the rulers, kings, emperors in different countries. People always aimed to achieve some purity, knighthood and for less educated people, it was great moral thing to have someone, who is placed on the opposite side of their imperfections.

    The beauty, courage, strength, power, education, knowledge, happiness are those perfections that majority seek.:)
     
  4. falvo

    falvo Member+

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    Listened and watched the Dems debate and they sounded like a bunch of clowns.
     
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  5. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

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    European pagans all believed in reincarnation through their relatives. They have a circular world view with no beginning and no end. Burying possessions with high ranking people when they died was misinterpreted by Christian scholars who projected their views on the writings as the afterlife.
    They buried them in the belief that they would find them in the next life and remember, regaining the past knowledge. Instead of starting a game from level one and restarting everytime you start from let's say, level 30.

    Reincarnation makes more sense that what atheists believe.
     
  6. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

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    The beginning must exist somehow. Christianity has a lot of similarities with Ancient Egyptian tradition.

    Horus and Isis:

    [​IMG]
    Ankh is similar to cross:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

    "Early examples of the ankh sign date to the First Dynasty (c. 3000 BC)."

     
  7. indestructible

    indestructible Member+

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    Which was does Pedowoo, I mean Hollywood swing ?
     
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  8. totti fan

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    Point well made
     
  9. totti fan

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    What a load of bullshit. The Church has always been about aligning itself and forming mutually beneficial alliances with the state to reinforce existing power structures. It's about promoting hierarchy, see the old ancien regime, it's about suppressing progress and preserving tradition, see the forbidden tree of knowledge and centuries long aversion to the spreading of knowledge of Greek and Roman antiquity. It's homophobic and paternalistic by it's very nature.

    There's bound to be some exceptions but the Church is the last place you would expect a socially liberal dude to end up.

    A conservative left-winger on the other hand is a different story. Y'know someone who goes into the job for the right reason who has empathy for all human beings a trait usually lacking in right-wingers.

    And Francis is not a liberal he's a sheepdog (like Obama). He pretends to be progressive but scratch the surface and he's as shit as all of the Popes.
     
  10. totti fan

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    Why does reincarnation make more sense than atheism?
     
  11. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

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    #16486 Gilbertsson, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    The Popes were not all the same. These ones were united in something much more, beyond our understanding.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

    Christianity wanted to take over the Julius Caesar importance. The borders of Western Roman Empire remind on current Roman Catholic countries, if we don't include North African possessions. Eastern Roman Empire remind on current Orthodox Christian countries.

    Parents of Pope Francis escaped from Italy, because of Mussolini.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

    Not sure, is this true? Mussolini belonged to Italian Socialist Party from 1901 - 1914. Gabriele D'Annunzio also switched sides, one year in party called Historic Right, two years in party called Historic Far Left.

    Hard to say, what was sincere here? But the battle for position and personal interest are evident.

    There are many leftist priests in South America. Maybe Bergoglio ended under their influence.
    If Bergoglio family really escaped because of Mussolini, why would he be right - wing Pope? Makes no sense.
     
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  12. Falc

    Falc Member+

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    As usual, you are a clueless twit. You fall for certain stereotypes and your beliefs rely on that instead of real life experience. Your question was not about the institution of the Catholic Church. It was about the clergy. Not only am I a practicing Catholic, I also attended Catholic schools from grade 7 to grade 12. So my experience not only includes those in the priesthood but others within the vocation, brothers and sisters. I can testify that through my experience, they come in all varieties. Even those who make it up the hierarchy come in all kinds. Perhaps you did not intend to phrase your post as a question seeking knowledge but instead looking to pick an empty argument of which you have nothing to contribute.
     
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  13. indestructible

    indestructible Member+

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    I often pray for the souls of the wicked
     
  14. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

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    #16489 Gilbertsson, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    We had similar life experience Falc. There were many variations. Every priest carries something what shaped him in his own family. The reasons for becoming the priest or nun were different. Some parents had 6 children. Two of them would become priest and nun because of economic reasons: "Go there, you will have better life there". Not easy step for sure. They were not all the same: "I was sitting on the bench once, suddenly I heard the supernatural call". Some priests adored materialistic and luxurious lifestyles, cars, travels, but some of them used old cars, they wear old winter cardigan pullovers, trousers and ordinary sandals. Some of them used public transport, even though school could provide them luxurious cars. They were completely different from environment: luxury school, furniture. But somehow they always ended in modest lifestyle, even in matter of food: cooked chicken, cooked beef, soup, salt and pepper with some bread, modest barbecues in spring...Many people think that all priests enjoy in extremely great cuisine and gastronomy expeditions. Some things that I saw, I would never eat, because they are too ordinary and not so tasty. I have never seen sea fruits, lobsters, expensive fish species. Not sure what was on Fridays or when they don't eat meat and food with grease, Christmas Eve, two days before Easter.

    Some of them liked to gift higher evaluation, some of them like to question everything and they would give you an F for 3 times and at the end they would give D evaluation.

    Some of them liked Russian literature and acts, some of them liked German, Italian, it all depended on some personal and family reasons. Some of them were strictly regionally oriented.

    Some priests entered in theological depth, meditations, Thomas Aquinas, Albertus Magnus, etc., so they lost the touch with reality, they can't handle larger society groups, they are often lonely and introverted. Some priests use provocative tones against other religions, some really respected them. Pope Francis evidently respects Orthodox Christians. The Vatican doesn't recognise Kosovo state and they don't proclaim Cardinal Stepinac as the new saint, because Orthodox Church has objections. He also admires to Patriarch Irinej.

    https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/why-a-papal-press-conference-upset-the-faithful-in-croatia/

    It's hard to explain why Pope wants to have better relations with them. Multiple reasons for sure:
    - Vatican influence would be much more present in Eastern Europe and even more global (Church constructions, conversions) just like we see in Asia, Africa.
    - Economic interests and influences
    - Sincere friendship
    - Every human being deserves to be loved

    The real reasons could be revealed some day.

    Some priests were not political at all, some were rightists, some were focused on poverty, some were conservative, I remember one of them, he was for euthanasia: "Why should someone suffer in the bed, without any chance for normal life?". One student :rolleyes: got the lower grade, because he claimed the opposite, instead of A, he got B. He thought that he should support the official Church stand, battle for life, God's creatures.:D

    People say, that priests and clergy in general are right - wing figures. They often adapt for the current political system. So, the politics comes second and the Church comes first. If Church wants to skip and avoid some political systems, structures, they lose the power completely. Imagine that one religious group can't build new churches, without renovation of older ones for 70 years just because they are against one system. I think that they adapted well in socialist systems, just like in rightist or democratic systems. Because they want that Church doesn't lose its power. Why would they want to be present in Mozambique, Madagascar, Angola, India...? Because of global spreading, that's why we don't have French Roman Catholic Church, Spanish Roman Catholic Church. Orthodox countries are connected much more with the state jurisdiction and border. Roman Catholic Church just wants to be present in universal way in all countries. How can clergy be far - right in Angola for example? There are not many Europeans there, so evidently they want to attract local people. What's right - wing for Roman Catholic clergy in Sri Lanka, India, Laos, Myanmar, Cambodia, Macao, Australia, Madagascar? Too many different ethnic groups, for who to cheer? If someone from Philippines arrives in Melbourne as Roman Catholic and if he goes in the Church with persons like Declan Seamus O'Donnelly who came from Ireland, Jean-Marc Appiah from Ghana, what's right - wing for the priest who speaks on the altar and if his name is James Scicluna from Malta?
     
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  15. Deleted User x

    Deleted User x Member+

    Mar 21, 2006
    Not in my 12 years of Catholic schooling. We were subjected to leftist brainwashing and guilt from teachers, priests and even the Bishop who made a speech during Confirmation that angered many parents.

    Research "The Second Vatican". That is where the Church went from right to left.
     
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  16. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
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    Because early church father's had to make allowances for the pagans to accept their new state religion. Early Christian's did not want this.

    Early church father's also did not want to include the book of Enoch (that's a hint) in the Bible because they feared that if they did, people would seek out the watchers (the "Gods" in every other religion) and start worshipping them for "knowledge' (Gnosis @toronto_soccer ) ... The basis of every pagan religion (and the eastern ones) is Gnosticism...they all believe Yahweh was the bad guy who imprisoned mankind and disconnected him from his divinity (little God status) and the Lucifer (that snake in Genesis) was really the good guy who is here to help everyone reconnect. This same story exists in high level masonry, Zionism, Rosicrucianism, woccanism,.hinduism, even Buddhism.

    One man or God fearing King was ever reported to be able to summon and control these other little "gods" or "angels". Solomon.

    Those are the historical facts on these religions.

    The story and workings of Jesus were recorded by Roman investigators and their letters still exist today. One such investigator was Gamaliel. He interviewed many of the witnesses to the miracles and then Joseph himself. He reported Joseph as being a mean, miserable and defeated man who was actually not very happy with Jesus because Jesus never cared too much about the family business and would rather talk about the law and spirituality with the people. Joseph was also a bit upset that the Angel who appeared to him told him he had to stick with Mary. At that time marrying a woman pregnant out of wedlock was seen as a weakness. He described this visitation by the Angel as being comforting. Said it was very big, very kind and very beautiful as a being.

    Contrast what Mohammed said of his visitation. His "angel" was also very large, grey and ugly, intimidating and induced fear and had beady black eyes.

    These are their very own accounts.

    Today many want to believe the "gods" who seeded us were an advanced alien race. It's another theme of age old Gnosticism for modern times.

    Want to know who recorded these events in more detail before Genesis dedicated only a couple of passages to it?

    Read the book of Enoch. All of it is documented there.

    Whether you do it because you believe or because you want to know the common origin of all religions is up to you. But if you do, you'll get the common thread to all these seemingly different non Judeo/Christian religions.

    Islam the outlier because it's sole purpose was to further corrupt the other two which had already been changed a little.
     
  17. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

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    This is more true. Still some within that stick to the old.
     
  18. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

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    That's why Frank is leading it.

    You know a little but fail to see the big picture.
     
  19. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
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    Science has already explained the phenomenon of reincarnation and "past life" experiences. These are actually stored as epigenes on your DNA. Memories, skills and all learnings of u our ancestors carry forward. Some are expressed, others not. So you can literally, if in the right state of consciousness access some of your ancestors memories. Some.meditations might help create the environment to do so. Without understanding you might think that was a memory from a past life.

    Science...so good when used for good.

    As a species our constructs are not ready for some things.
     
  20. Gilbertsson

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    #16495 Gilbertsson, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    In Iran, many Muslims still observe their Zoroastrian customs. It was always interesting to me, why Europeans neglected their own European religions, manifestations and customs. A lot of armies, legions went to Jerusalem, so that they can conquest the city. Maybe because of the burden and their own personal deadly sins. Priests promised them liberation of sins. Muslims only translated the names: Moussa (Moses), Issa (Jesus), David (Davud), Mary (Merjem), Abraham (Ibrahim).

    There are still people who use Aramaic language. Language which Jesus used.
    Pope is in fear, because conservative part of the Church is against him.
    This is always hard to understand: is this true, or not? How can individual person switch from one system to other, but in sincere way? Earlier, people said that ex-Pope will reform the Church and upgrade it completely: Joseph Ratzinger.
    But, nothing really happened. Something that we get as official, usually it's not true.:D
    The biography of Pope John Paul II evidently demonstrates, that he was left - wing person, if you read the Early life part.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II

    Ratzinger was probably right - wing and he left. I doubt that he left with his own intention and voluntas.

    It all depends on periods of life, decades. The heavy adaptation on different circumstances existed in all recorded centuries. Before it was Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant. After that came Ave Maria with similar awareness about the death (morituri): fear, good deeds for fruitful afterlife.

    If we observe Ancient Egypt, the Pharaoh figure was their God, people were forced to work for them and today we admire to that architecture, just like it was created with love, easy approaches.:D
     
  21. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

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    Like royalty today believe they are of divine origins, so did pharoahs. Same origins. You just need to trace them further back. Each manifestation teaches the same system and principles.
     
  22. Gilbertsson

    Gilbertsson Member+

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    #16497 Gilbertsson, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    Of course. You can't convince people in anything, if you don't offer to them something special: money, influence, real estate, job. People are often very stupid and naive. Every time when they see the stage or red carpet, they start to worship someone: singer, actor, social network influence figure.:D At the end, it's all about the real estates, power, spreading the jurisdictions. Never ending saga.

    The Catholic Church uses excellent thing for themselves, no one can't inherit anything from the priests, even if you have someone in your family, who is the priest. That's why they don't make legal marriages with testament, or will so that their wives, children, other family members inherit anything. Also, they never liked critical opinion among people. Basically, you need to listen and obey, without any discussion.

    Pontificia infallibilita is also interesting dogma, where you can't question any decisions. When I visited some places of my origins in my childhood, the priest was very much respected. I remember he drove Renault 4 in 80's.:D Which was not that bad, for doing nothing.:thumbsup: He had normal department, he had donations from people: money, food. But in private life, he was not a believer, he was very friendly with my family and one of my members teased him: "What kind of priest you are, if you think that only this life exists?" The priest said that nothing happens if person dies, two feet underground and that's all. That priest died young, maybe in his 50's. Punishment from God, someone would said.:thumbsdown:

    It's always interesting to observe the relation of terrible events in human lives and priests who claim that God decides about everything: drought, flood, lack of food, illness, bad evaluations in school, universities. Even if you are good, if you pray, make good deeds, all those things happen.

    In Balkan Peninsula, it's also interesting the fact of superstition existence, paganism leftovers, especially among Latin speaking communities through history: the fear of werewolf. People never liked the hens who would sing like roosters.:D Those hens must vanish instantly.:rolleyes: Howling dogs are also bad sign among Latin people.

    Recorded vampire existed in Istra.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jure_Grando

    The witches were also popular thing. If someone doesn't like some people, he would say that their female member is a witch.
    Priests were tolerant on those things, even though they should be against this.
    There were several types of Latin people: noble families (higher, middle and low nobility). They usually married with other noble families, trying to be higher in class, possessions and respect. Others were shepherds, pastore lifestyle, basically nomads, because they would take the animals and took them in mountains. In winter, they would go down with animals, wandering from one mountain to other. Their name was usually Morlachs. Cheese in Italy is named Morlacco.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlacco

    Paganism is still strong among both types. I'm not sure about the Slavic people up in the northern parts. They use the bells to remove the bad ghosts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvončari

    Future prediction, dreams also exist there, some really believe in that.:cool:

    The money and real estates seem as rather interesting final aim for many groups in different centuries, if they switch political systems, ideology, religion.:)

    Tribal kingship exists more than 5 000 years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchies_in_Europe

    "The notion of kingship in Europe ultimately originates in systems of tribal kingship in prehistoric Europe. The Minoan (c. 3200 – c. 1400 BCE) and Mycenaean civilisation (c. 1600 – c. 1100 BCE) provide the earliest examples of monarchies in protohistoric Greece."

    Maybe humans don't have beliefs: political system, ideology in sincere way, when they are alone. Why would people spend time and work for one ideology without gaining anything? What's the purpose, if I can rather relax on the beach and drink cold mojito? When people see the potential gifts, they join and start working for the system. Is the personal freedom, libertas our private wish, desire and final aim, if we don't see anything lucrative and materialistic?
     
  23. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
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    Do you think they still believe that today? For the most part, they have become figure heads. They live a good life although restricted in some sense. It would be interesting to find out that they think they are part of divinity.
     
  24. Gilbertsson

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    #16499 Gilbertsson, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    They don't believe in this when they are alone with themselves. When they see the corridor of people, behind the iron fences, they probably think: "Such fools".:D Matter of manipulation of course. I doubt that they ever believed in this. But this manuscript was designed for people, peasants and less educated people. For sure, you can't attract people if you talk about your fiscal and monetary contribution, but if you say: "God choose me, so that I rule with you". People start to think that they are holy people. Because God choose the leader who uses their language and lives among them. Someone uneducated won't question this. He would rather think that he is a member of holy nation. That's why naive people still dream about their previous monarchies. They express their will to serve them. People are naive and naturally subordinated. They adore to accept orders and fulfil them. Chosen from God helps people when they go in battles for the ruler which is chosen.

    This helps to people and they really obey. They are maybe restricted in acts, but they have high incomes, real estates, summer houses, countryside homes, donations, foundations, they don't go in weak public schools.
     
  25. totti fan

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    Listen up you biased idiot. I went to Catholic schools from Years 4 to 12. Attended Sunday school for a while, have received the usual sacraments and both of my children attended Catholic schools up to Year 8 (they now attend elite secular select entry schools) and are confirmed. I'm more of a Catholic than you are.

    You're a parody of what a Catholic should be. Pro-war, hate blacks, poor people, anti-womens rights, no empathy for immigrant refugees, could give a ******** about pollution and climate change. Lol if Hell is real, you're on your way there.
     
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