Nations League A, Camp 2, Canada/Cuba, Nov. 15/19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Dander, Oct 16, 2019.

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  1. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    Yes Canada will be screwed if we lose and El Salvador wins against 2 weak opponents. I believe we will be screwed even if we tie the US.

    Fifa rankings are pure garbage.

    Canada gained more points beating Cuba than they would earn from a draw against the US.

    Just the simple act of winning irregardless of the strength of the opponent is way overvalued, and FIFA does not value draws, even against strong opponents.

    Horrible system.

    I've created my own system, better than both FIFA and Elo IMO.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/alternative-world-rankings-thread.2092151/
     
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  2. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Just noticed Trinidad played a friendly with Ecuador in Ecuador yesterday (different confederation) but plays Honduras on Sunday, so that cannot be correct.
     
  3. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FFS everyone. McKennie is a 21 year old who made an obviously ill-chosen remark in some misguided attempt to express much-needed confidence before an important game after a run of bad results.

    It's not necessarily indicative of an entitlement mindset or a lack of geographical knowledge. More likely it's indicative of youthful poor judgment. This is why if I were a head coach I'd just tell players to take the Belichick approach: accurate, bland, and very brief answers. that way a poorly phrased remark like this doesn't become an internet meme or locker room material.
     
  4. melatoninlol

    melatoninlol Member

    Seattle Sounders
    United States
    Oct 27, 2019
    Near Boston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Personally I'm fine with McKinnie saying that. He's angling to be our yellow card drinking game punch you in the face guy of our generation (basically Jermaine Jones, and hopefully including the random bangers). I get the feeling he's the one if any of our main six or so that will eventually just dump on the fed if things continue to be shit.
     
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  5. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have no trouble with McKennie being confident and showing some attitude, both in games and out of them. But the phrasing he chose is not great. Right now we're not the dominant team in North America by any measure. Hell, we might not even be second. So while I welcome some edge in our players, and thing we sorely need it, also you have to phrase these things in ways that works rather than saying things that are just facially laughable. Not that I think it's that big a deal, as my post above stated.
     
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  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    We've been the dominant power in North America since the 1840s.

    Big decisions:
    Start Yedlin at rightback? Cannon has been better, especially defensively

    Start Sargent at striker? Aside from Pulisic, Morris has been the team's form attacker, and is probably better at striker.

    Use a regista? Trapp and Yueill are part of the team. Will either get the start?

    Start Brooks? What's his form like? He can be inconsistent.

    Play with true CAM? The team desperately needs creativity, but Berhalter has been hesitant to use this type of player up the middle.
     
  7. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    It matters where the game is played not what confed a team is from.

    If you play a match in one continent you need a 3 or 4 day space in between playing in a different continent.
     
  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1283 juvechelsea, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
    I see the problems as follows

    In this formation everything is intended to funnel to the 9. Even if a wide player is better than the 9, his job is to feed the 9. Who is the 9 and how well are they playing? Sargent isn't ready yet, Jozy is ok, Zardes is exasperating, Wood has been exiled. So the whole machine is supposed to be setting up a tepid 9 spot we don't have sorted.

    Some of the wings like Pulisic and Morris seem better than the 9s, but their regular job is to give the ball up. Except I think our offense is more interesting when they periodically cut in across the top of the box. You then get shots near or in the box, or interior groundball passing as opposed to low percentage whack it in. But after Guyana how often do you see a wing do this?

    Midfield you lack specialists who either attack well or defend well, and it's basically so bad they don't have to respect us and can in fact press us. This starves the forwards of service and also means the opponent can start the attack much further upfield with fewer players to beat. As such game after game we are witness to a "giveaway" or more in the middle or back third, which costs us.

    Without some 10 elements we lack a plan B when teams get back and defend competently.

    Backline we seem to have bought into the idea of selection to go forward. GA has ballooned. No one seems to see the connection. We led the hex in goals last cycle. We also shipped 13 goals. Perhaps this is not a recipe for success.

    Keeping I don't feel like the position is being played at the Keller Friedel peak level. Been years since I have seen a keeper stand on his head for 90 to deliver a result the field play hadn't quite earned. This means the keeper is not going to save the results the players in front of him don't deliver themselves. We used to get that gift more often. Maybe TnT is giving us fits but the keeper saves them all. We now just lose. There are teams regionally like CR with Navas who have this "plus."

    The coach and staff may be able to scout isolated ideas if teams line up just like they did last game eg Cuba. But the tactics are shallow and poorly thought out, and the selection is horrific. One aspect of the selection issues is the system, but another is that club snobbery or minutes have replaced performance and so we field resumes or stat lines rather than rewarding NT performance. I think we are the only major country in the reason that gets club and country confused. No other team in the region would buy the malarkey that a poor NT performance is canceled out by where you play club soccer.****

    The margins have shrunk where USA at 60% < Canada etc. This is no longer a region where most of the teams field semi-pros or amateurs or collegians. People mock MLS/USL rank and file but that means opponents can accumulate full professionals on their teams. They have essentially made the jump we made with MLS after 1994. That means they will show up and play like professionals. And anyone who watches USOC or FA Cup knows that the margins among levels are not that massive, and that if one team shows up hand tied behind its back, resting players, poor selection, disorganized, they can be run off the field by the team that does its job right.

    We were a top 16 team but rather than build off that we let the zealots try and change the whole thing, essentially blowing up the advantages which had us far ahead in the region, and top 16 in the world. So we don't even have that. And if you toss away your advantages and don't organize well and don't pick players well, the NTs chasing us that are not hand wringing about "am I pretty enough," who do organize, and who do try to maximize on personnel, will pass us right by.

    *****I see this as part of our arrogance problem. Perhaps well embodied in having a #2 regional rank "despite everything." We seem up our butt about how good we still are despite results. And similarly we seem all up our butt about how we populate the big leagues of the world. Worse, we channel that right into selection.^^^^

    ^^^^We have probably more players off in Europe than ever, and the team sucks. Maybe the two don't correlate. Maybe the constant reference to it, and the idea that it is an actual selection metric, is symptom of our arrogance, that we think we can stick our crest and resumes on the field and not have to outplay the other side, and that gaffe machines with club resumes fix themselves.
     
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  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I mean, the fact that we likely respond to how Ream got abused by Canada by saying, hmm, you know who we need back there, the equally slow Brooks, for the same "but he can pass" reason, and not see we are repeating the mistake........when a team not obsessed with how great its players' resumes are, and how we're just obviously better than canada, but that had to sing for its supper, so to speak, would be, who do I have in the pool that can negate that footspeed. Like deal with issues as practical problem-solution as opposed to the theoretical application of our "impressive club affiliations."

    To be blunt, the club stuff is shallow fanboy bs. Any idiot can run out the same 3 subs or people that have nice resumes. It requires more brainpower to think about the matchups and practical soccer.
     
  10. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Youth is not the only thing overrated.
     
  11. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So I'm looking at this damn roster we're throwing out there tonight.

    And I'm also looking at the U 23 roster and thinking about overage players in case we actually managed to qualify.

    Aside from the obvious goalkeeper addition, is there anyone on this roster tonight that's a clear high impact upgrade for the U 23's?

    Brooks, maybe?

    After that, I got nothing....
     
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  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Weston, Morris, Dest and Yedlin come to mind.
     
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  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I've had this conversation with my coach in another sport I did for a while at a decent level. In select soccer when my team was at its peak I never thought we'd lose. But that was earned. We won league over and over, and went to state every year, and won tournaments, and after a while you just expect it. That is confidence of a sort that can help you. But that is also earned.

    I keep hearing sports psychologist types pimping confidence as something good to have, and I believe a player needs to correct their technical glitches as opposed to beat themselves up.

    But that's different than going around saying we're big sh*t when we're not. Part of the reason I went off earlier is this feeling that between "system" and "club snobbery" and such, that we are way way too confident in ourselves and our ability to get things done, without much heed to actual reality. There are terms for this. Hubris. Arrogance.

    And then I agree with the "why on earth would you provide bulletin board stuff like this" critique as well. For a team purposefully dragging around the anvil of supposed overage "leadership" eg Bradley, we seem kind of naive about international soccer in general, like they don't get that teaching. When someone like Morales shows up with the right grit and energy level, we are almost happily surprised, and willing to ignore how 95% of the rest of his game went. That's how much we miss people showing up playing the right way.

    And then we have this kid running his mouth pointlessly. It's factually false and can only incite the opponent. Shut up until you can literally say it as true.

    FWIW ironically he was one of the players interviewed after one of the recent debacles and of course in that context, being given the chance to vent about the system and results, he gave some bland answer about how we're working on the system and working hard for coach. Maybe it reconciles as he believes in the project. But I am kind of wondering what the heck some of these guys are thinking.*** Pulisic and Pomykal have at least given some statements and body language like they don't like what's happening. Like they are awake.

    ***Is it that many of these players are young and think they owe GB for their security in the team? Maybe more veteran players would feel freer to vent because they feel like I am here now, I was here under the last two coaches, and I will be here for the next guy too.
     
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  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The two U23 positions that overage players could upgrade would be striker(Morris) and goalkeeper(Steffen).
     
  15. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Guessing Olympics doesn't qualify as "senior caps" for a certain individuals race to the caps record?
     
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  16. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Would be my Olympics starting XI.

    -----------------------Morris------
    --------Weah-------Pulisic---------Dest
    ---------------Adams-----McKennie--
    --ARobinson---------------------------Cannon----
    --------------Richards-----MRobinson----
    -----------------------Steffen-----

    If Richards isn't ready there are plenty of other options at CB.
    Pulisic could be moved to the left, which would then allow a second striker or a third cm to be used.
     
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  17. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I don't think we'll qualify for anything using Jay's Brother's disaster of a system.

    First, the opponent knows exactly what we're going to do on every possession: build from the back at all costs. If a CB doesn't touch the ball, we've failed. The team is not allowed to make a line-skipping pass. The consequence is that the opponent can throw all their players forward without fear. We will *never* play the ball behind their defenders.

    Second, the 1st goal of all the possession out of the back is to work the ball up the right side and create an numbers imbalance there. Every time. However, the goal is not to attack from there.

    Third, Berhalter has a rule that, unless you are in the box, you do not make an attacking dribble into space, or beat a guy one on one. If you find yourself in that position, you wait for the front 5 players and right fullback to get all the way forward, shifted to the right - but you do not attack.

    Fourth, this is the craziest part of the craziness. Berhalter doesn't seem to realize that his attempts to unbalance the opponent unbalance ourselves. When we manage to get forward on the right, we don't attack, so we're going to lose the ball. When we lose the ball, there is no one, nothing but empty grass between the opponent and our DM, CB's and left fullback. The opponent runs unimpeded, in numbers for 20, 30 yards until they get to the back 4 (DM, 2 CB's, LB).

    Fifth, in this scenario, the DM (usually Bradley) is not going to try to win the ball. (Bradley and Trapp are not ball winners anyway). Some refer to him as a traffic cop. A better description is "Crossing Guard." The DM barely puts up token resistance. The opponent can attack the back three without fear.

    Sixth, the ultimate goal of all of this is to create a back pass opportunity (yes, a back pass opportunity) for a pushed up right side player to play a long back pass back to the DM - so that the DM can make another lonnnng pass to the left winger. All that work, all that exposure of the defense, all that telegraphing what you're going to do, just to create the opportunity for a lonnnng pass from the DM to the left winger - who, supposedly will be in space. So futile. 1) everyone in the world knows what we're trying to do. In the time it takes to pass the ball baaaaaaack to the DM, and then uuuuuuup to the left wing, the opponent has ample time to adjust. 2) I don't recall seeing any of our left wing players beating an opponent 1v1 from that spot. 3) Who is this magic left wing player that we're sacrificing literally everything to try to get 1v1? If it's Pulisic, I hate to disappoint everyone, but he doesn't really have a very good shot, hat trick notwithstanding. If it's not a tap in, he's going to shoot wide. And, sometimes he's not going to be available. And, he would get *just as many* 1v1 opportunities in a normal system - more, actually - than in this Goldberg scheme.

    The problem with Jay's Brother's system is not that he wants to "play possession" football. Just like there are a ton passing schemes in the NFL, there are different ways to possess. Jay's Brother happens to have come up with the most ridiculous way imaginable.
     
  18. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mine:

    Weah———-Sargent————Morris*
    ——————-Pulisic———————
    ———Adams———-McKennie——-
    Dest———————————-Cannon
    ————Miazga*——CCV————
    ———————Steffen*——————

    Bench:
    Freese (GK)
    Scott (GK)
    Herrera (RB)
    A. Robinson (LB)
    M. Robinson (CB)
    Richards (CB)
    Yuiell (DM)
    Pomykal (CM)
    Aaronson (CM)
    Ledezma (AM)
    Llanez (LW)
    Sabbi (RW)
    Soto (FW)
     
  19. pirozhok

    pirozhok Member+

    United States
    Jul 20, 2007
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Current official FIFA rankings:
    USA - 1530, CAN - 1339, SLV - 1336, DOM - 1040, MON - 911

    Per my calculation (based on new FIFA formula), here are the following ranking results:

    CAN:
    1. USA flush CAN down the toilet - CAN -4 pts @1335
    2. CAN beats our shit show - CAN +10pts @1349
    3. Draw - CAN + 4pts @1343

    SLV:
    Beats MON - +2 pts @1338
    Beats DOM - +4 pts @1342

    It looks like maximum points SLV can collect from 2 matches are +6 @1342
    If CAN draws they can beat SLV by 1 pt @1343 and make it to the Hex.
    If CAN loses, they drop to 1335 and have to rely on SLV dropping both of their matches.
     
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  20. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    It always depends upon whether your coach applies a more philosophical approach: (Do what got us here) or applies a more pragmatic approach (utilize tactics most likely to produce the desired result). The problem is in how much advantage or disadvantage you perceive in playing more open tactics, versus more conservative ones.

    I too am of the belief that a team should play to its strengths rather than simply to mitigate risks, because often in mitigating risks, you tranquilize your team's motivation and energy, and force them to try to make pragmatic decisions in the flow of play rather than play a more fluid and intuitive style.

    However, it's important to note that a portion of the reason Couva happened was precisely because we chose to do what got us there in the previous game: we made no changes for rest reasons, we didn't bunker in an away game as we figured we didn't have to sweat T&T (even though they'd just nearly drawn Mexico in Mexico!?!?!?! mere days before), and we could play are normal open style we'd use against lesser Concacaf sides.

    The problem is, literally everything that could go wrong in such a scenario did:
    1. Our players were far more tired than their med testing suggesting (many quotes about feeling like they were running in "water".

    2. They gave up an early goal, boosting the spirits of T&T, and deflating the team itself while also motivating the crowd (seemed sparse but I dont remember).

    3. The early goal they gave up was a mind numbingly stupid and flukish own goal.

    4. They gave up a second wonder goal a few minutes before halftime w/Howard not positionally aware and a player firing off the best shot from distance of his career.

    5. The team then had to chase the game w/few if any subs beyond Dempsey to inject life in the team. They needed two goals in 45 minutes if what they needed from the other two games didnt happen.

    6. Both of the other games flow also caused chaos and contributed, because the team went from a lockerroom down 0-2, but having the resutls they needed in the other matches (Mexico up 2-1 over Honduras at halftime, Costa Rica up 1-0 at HT, even in the 80th minute, the Costa Rica match was still actually going our way).

    Basically, EVERYTHING went wrong, gave up a pair of early fluke goals, both of the other matches gave us reason to be calm, instead of paranoid and ready to blow the doors off Slovenia 2010 style in the 2nd half, then the early Pulisic goal may have made things worse as it probably made players think it was just a matter of time before they pulled back the second, then add in subs possibly rolling in maybe w/news that the Panama game was still going our way and you can see how things would go sideways.

    That's a nightmare scenario where everything went wrong (and I didn't even mention that Panama scored a non-existent ghost goal, and if that doesnt happen, we advance as the third place team anyway on goal difference.

    But to tie it back to your point, everything depends upon the philosophy your coach has for what he thinks is the best approach to this match, to just grind out a draw, or to play to win.

    I agree w/you, in that, if I'm him, I play to win. The US has been manure at home. There is no fortress USA. Nobodies going to the game (see ticket sales), so there's no home field advantage for us other than in perhaps odd temperatures down in Florida. Other than that, zilch. So why can't you just use what's always working against the US since Berhalter took over? Quick counters, press the hell out of us, especially our defense and central mids, force the turnovers, exploit the liklihood that Dest will be far up field repeatedly when our midfield or forward(s) turn it over, and just bum rush back.

    I don't think it should be hard AT ALL to beat us. We have no creative #10, no trusted distributor, we lack steal in the central midfield especially if Morales isn't starting, and we're raw at fulllback, and we're playing guys totally unfamiliar with eachother and their keeper at CB.

    Why play to grind out a draw? This game should be MUCH easier than the first, other than if Morales starts and plays well. We have no Pulisic, we don't have our first choice keeper, and we'll be playing a back line that's 3/4's different w/a new keeper. We may be starting a different forward, and a different wingers on both sides. I would take a look at what we're doing, and build the game plan that way, w/one tweak based upon how we line up at Central Midfield (If Morales is there, it will be a bit tougher to attack through the middle, so going against the inexperienced fullbacks and wings will yield better results).

    I agree w/you. Attack, attack, attack/counterattack. Period. Especially if we're stupid enough to open up w/a midfield and forward collection that is virtually all second choice options across the board if that. If you go after us aggressively, you should win, period. You don't really have an excuse to lose. Our best wingers are unavailable, our best forward (kinda) is out, our best D Mid is out, our backline is totally different and our keeper is different. Take us out. It would make me happy, even as it made me pissed (Our U23's lost to Brazil yesterday 1-0, w/not even the first choice 23, Berhalter, lining up his first choice 23 against Brazil's would've lost by 3 or more easy, that tells you all you need to know about how badly this team needs to be further humiliated for change to happen).
     
  21. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I view that game as:

    USA 2 Portugal 1 and Klinsman and Bradley handing a 2nd goal over to Portugal. We won that game, they scored on literally the last second of the match because of idiotic decisions from Klinsmann, and horrendous decisions from Bradley. That team came from behind to win it, only to have it stolen at the death by incompetence from two very specific people: Klinsmann and Bradley (Klinsmann screaming for players to press, Omar running around chicken minus head style, and Bradley instead of booting the ball 90 miles into the stands, playing tiki taka w/his own freaking possession and getting dumped off the ball). All of that stupidity happens in mere seconds, and then we leave Beasley on an island against freaking Ronaldo, while Portugal's supersub forward comes flying down, largely unmarked at the edge of the box for the cross and Howard doesn't aggressively come out to knock that ball out of the stadium. A lot of things had to go wrong, but none of it does if Klinsmann and Bradley aren't idiots.

    Yes I know it's a draw in the record books, but it's a draw like the draw against Slovenia, and unlike the draw against England. The draw against England was a draw, the draw against Slovenia was a screwjob by an incompetent/scared/corrupt ref, and the draw against Portugal was as flukey as the goal Honduras scored off Mexico's keepers head to knock us out of WC '18. Just beyond flukish and ridiculous. Pretty infuriating period.
     
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  22. pirozhok

    pirozhok Member+

    United States
    Jul 20, 2007
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is there gonna be matchday thread for USA-CAN game?
     
  23. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Hope not.
     
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  24. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Sure...I would imagine you can make one if you want.
     
  25. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone notice this bit of USSF propaganda:

    https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2019/10/weve-been-here-before

    It's actually a few weeks old, I just noticed it. Seems designed to convince supporters that what happened against Canada was not anomalous, and that we'll likely come out of this OK as we have when we've been in a pinch in previous WCQ-type situations, namely the WCQ semis in 2012 and 2016.

    There's a rough analogy here: The losses in the 2012 WCQ semis away to Jamaica and in the 2016 WCQ semis away to Guatemala were shocking and terrible losses. And I actually think they both presaged decline. We'd not lost at all to Jamaica in I don't know how long (ever?), then 2012 happened in Kingston, and three years later we lost to them in the US. And the Guatemala loss was just a putrescent show, maybe the worst game end to end I've ever seen us play, and while it didn't end up costing us anything in terms of qualifying, it did presage that team's proclivity to just play horribly away in big games (CR away, Couva). So that part is not exactly reassuring, though I guess the generous reading of this is that we've gotten into trouble in WCQ-like scenarios before and pulled out of the tailspin (though references to the final result of WCQ 2018 are conveniently missing).

    If the point though is that we can feel confident that when the team has their back to the wall they manage to find a way, then I don't buy it. Past results are not predictive of future results, as the SEC requires securities dealers to say. And while I had a lot of confidence in past versions of the MNT to scrape out of challenging situations (and there were a lot of these--we needed late goals to earn draws away in the 2000s more than people recall--Honduras, Jamaica, and El Salvador come to mind), there's no indication that the Gagg version of this team has the skills or the spirit to do this.

    That's not to say that I don't want USSF's implication to be right; it would be awesome in a week to say "Hey remember when we all thought we were dead solid certain to lose to Canada in the CNC? that was weird." But prospectively and in light of how this team has developed (or failed to) over the past year I'm not betting on it. (Though like a total fool, I'll be tuned in to the game tonight even though I have a sense of total dread about it.)
     

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