Nations League A, Camp 2, Canada/Cuba, Nov. 15/19

We are so screwed.

 

Underestimating Canada at this point is ill-advised.

 

This is the prediction everything turns on. It's hard to argue at this point that the Gagg system works. At best you can argue that it's going to work at some point but that's a hard one to believe based on how poorly it's gone and how ill-suited to this player pool it seems. And while it may work given enough time, if "enough time" is "several years' worth of practice," then it's a moot point anyway for WC20 purposes.

So we're left with the hope that Gagg will modify both his player selection and his tactics to reflect a more pragmatic approach when his back is to the wall. And I think we can test that prediction now. If "needing two wins to escape our CNC group" is not having his back to the wall, I don't know what is. (Here, I suppose one could argue that WCQ would be the real back-to-the-wall moment, but that strikes me as way too late.)

This Friday should tell us a lot. We may already know quite a bit; Gagg's player selection looks about the same as it did before, but the formation and tactics will tell us a lot more. But for me the most important factor will be whether the team comes out with the kind of fire that's seemed lacking in them recently, and that I recall them showing as a characteristic feature in the not-too-distant past.

It sucks to follow a team that is underperforming, but that's where we're at and I'll be tuning in to this one, with expectations duly lowered.

 

euro fairy dust? isn’t that where one assumes that all European based players are better than MLS even if they’re in lesser clubs/leagues? Or is acknowledging the simple fact that there are better leagues than MLS now euro fairy dust?

I guess you think that MLS is equivalent to B1. Do you also think that the b2 is the same as b1?

Both Bradley and Lletget played in Europe and returned to the US so I don’t honk it’s their nationality that prevents them from playing at a higher level...

 

We will probably know what need to know about an hour before the game. If MB is penciled in as the starter at the 6...more of the same.

 

Fredo Morales is a good, not spectacular, experienced, mobile, and aggressive center defensive midfielder. He’s more like Roldan than Lletget, but if Roldan was actually a good defender and contributed something going forward.

What I don’t understand about fans is that there seems to be pro-MLS and pro-Euro fan groups. What ever happened to just being pro-USMNT?

Nonetheless, I’ll say this on that matter... the times the US performed its best was when it had the most amount of YA talent in the line-up, and the worst when all our best talent came to MLS.

 

agreed. I don’t think it’s right to characterize players in a league as a group - they’re all USMNT players as far as I’m concerned. We’re not at the point where we don’t need MLS/Championship/B2 players.

the issue is how the coach is evaluating, selecting and motivating this group. He has done a very poor job at all three but it’s wrong to blame players.

 

DHC1 one of your problems on this board is that you take something someone writes and then just expand it to a degree that no reasonable person would interpret from what they originally wrote.

Of course I don't think MLS is equivalent to B1. I do think there are players in MLS who would be starters in B1 and that path would be easier if they grew up in Germany like Morales did.

Bradley for example left a B1 team for a better one in Italy and then left that team for a worse but higher paying team because he wanted to be closer to home. If he grew up in Germany he would not be playing in MLS.

Lletget didn't get his chances as a young player in England where at the time he was just a tick below the line of an EPL player. He's obviously a much better player today than he was then with the experience he gained in MLS. I think he wouldn't look out of place on a lower level big league team. Remember his story. He came back to home MLS and looked good then got hurt and really only in the last year has started to look like his old self. It's not unreasonable to think that hurt his chances of returning abroad if he wanted to. Much like Bradley his career path would have looked drastically different if he were the same level player who grew up in Germany.

Morales to me feels like a good player for a struggling B1 team. He can add a little to the offense and has some defensive tenacity. From what I've seen he's a workmanlike player. Nothing wrong with that. I think Greg should've called him in earlier but at the end of the day I think at best from what we've seen he's a slightly better version of Roldan.

I generally lean towards we're better when our players play overseas but that doesn't mean our MLS based players can't be better options for us. Altidore is currently better than Sargent for example. I hope I'm wrong about Morales and he genuinely is clearly better than Roldan, and Lletget at the 8 position or better than Bradley at the 6 or (like McKennie) both, but I don't think we should just assume he is.

 

I actually wonder whether the tactics and formation are on Berhalter, Stewart or both. Berhalter played a 4-2-3-1 at Columbus didn't he? That formation suites this team a lot better than a 4-3-3 with a faux Pirlo at the six. The U17's just played something similar and looked worse. My guess is Earnie is the instigator of this system and every team is supposed to run it now. Probably explains why Tab moved on. So either all the teams will eventually "get" it and move seamlessly up the ladder or it will be an extreme fail at every level and we'll see how much patience the Fed has for a men's side in flames. Personally, I'd have done it for U17 and below next cycle so they have the time needed to adjust and then move it up a cycle as they graduate. Wouldn't just inject it everywhere all at once and take major lumps for no good reason. For these games if Berhalter has the authority to go to a 4-2-3-1 the Pulisic at the 10 with McKennie and Morales behind him and Sargent, Morris and Boyd ahead and next to him would be a big improvement.

 

when you say that thinking that two plebeian MLS players are as good as a b1 regular and that anyone who doesn’t agree is biased due to “euro pixie dust” is FAR from exaggerated. Is that not what you meant when you used that phrase? Perhaps you can elaborate exactly what you meant.

Let me be clear: There are players in MLS/B2/Championship who can step up to the major leagues. They are almost always younger rising players and/or League all-stars/Best XI. Lletget and Bradley are nowhere near that level.

Is that euro bias or simply an acknowledgement that there’s a global meritocracy that MLS players are part of?

 

There are also different levels of B1 regulars. A near relegation B1 starter is much different than a safe mid-table B1 starter. Also Bradley/Lletget/Roldan are hardly plebeian MLS starters. Two of those players will be starting in MLS Cup and the other led his team to a playoff win.

I'm basing what I wrote about Morales based on what I've seen on the pitch. I believe I've seen every National Team appearance he's made and Morales hasn't looked like he's a higher level player than the aforementioned players. Maybe he would with more opportunities. I won't disagree with you that he hasn't had as many opportunities as one would think he'd have but on the other end, he's done very little with the opportunities he's been given.

 

“euro pixie dust”

I would strongly suggest “euro pixie dust” fan boys to watch more BL, EPL, Serie A, and La Liga games. The speed of thoughts, the precision of decisions making, the execution of tactics, and physically of the games at these level is way more than 90% of the MLSers can comprehend.

Almiron - Arguably the best offensive player in the MLS, and is a def Top 5 players in the MLS looks pretty mediocre in the EPL.

Giovinco - Who dominated the MLS and scored goals like it was Sunday brunch, couldn't get his ass off of the bench in Italy. He has a total of TWO (yes 2) goals to his name in the 2 years in Italy prior to coming to the MLS.

Altidore - The guy couldn't score an EPL goal even if you give him $1M for a goal. He has exactly 1 goal in his two year in the EPL. But he terrorizes MLS defenders and score double digits goals every season in the MLS.

Even a 38 year old Ibra is scoring goals in the MLS like it's an U10 league. This guy can't chase the ball anymore in the EPL before arriving in the MLS.

The simple fact is, players in the top 4 league in Euro is just at a different and higher level than your MLS guys. Sure, there are a handful of MLSers that can start regularly in the Top 4 leagues, but majority of those guys also don't have a US passport.

 

Michael Bradley's name come up often. I'd argue that either Mark-Anthony Kaye or Samuel Piette are better players as of today. (Not talking historically of course)
Piette at defensive midfield was a major reason the US attack didn't work according to his stats. Stephen Eustaquio is coming soon on top of it.

Outside of Bradley, who are the alternatives at DM for the US team? (Genuinely asking)

On paper, the US defense corps is much deeper, plays at a higher level and more proven than ours. Ours in comparison, except for Vitoria, aren't playing at the level US defenders are playing today. We're a "work in progress", which is why our defensive mid can't make mistakes.

The US midfield is much deeper than ours and through some research are very good and tested at higher levels proven. Ours can match up with the experienced Scott Arfield being the key. Jonathan David is an attacking midfield in Belgium which is actually his strongest position. That's another option there, same for Mark-Anthony Kaye who's actually better at CM than DM. There's a gap but it's much narrow than people are willing to admit.

Keepers are comparable but Borjan is more experienced and proven in Champions League.

Offense, we have the edge.

Tactics and management? Coin toss but Herdman is starting to make some people believers that he isn't entirely way over his head.

Any Canada-US game going forward will be determined by who controls the midfield

 

Sadly, I believe this is true.

In the name of parity, MLS has handicapped the growth of the USMNT.

 

Ask yourself this question, how many MLS guys that had been called up to the USMNT can properly trap a ball? That's basic soccer at the highest level.

Is anyone watching Liverpool and Man City right now? Do you actually see the speed of the game that is happening in front of your eyes? Do you recognize the precision of Klopp's counter attack? That is soccer at the highest level folks. Sadly, we don't have a guy on either of these teams. Pulisic and Chelsea will get there soon, not yet but very soon.

 

I'd love to see this list of B1 level starters in the MLS that are Americans....

 

It's bizarre how some want to pretend what happened 5 years ago is relevant today. Bradley played in the B1 years ago, what's the difference now!?!?! I've seen all of Fredo Morales' 14 caps, mostly from 5 years ago. AVERAGE!

Like people don't age/fall off a cliff in 5 years, or people aren't able to improve from a B2 player at 24 to a B1 player at 29.

 

Chievo better than BMG?

Bradley was bought by BMG which is historically a top 6 BuLi club but was transfer-listed after a couple of below average years as a box-to-box midfielder. He went out on loan AV in the EPL and failed. He then moved to Chievo, a bottom 1/3 Seri A squad.. I do believe that MB90 was a BuLi-level player on the right team. He is not quick or slick enough to be a BuLi #8 and not an intimidating enough ball winner to be a top tier BuLi #6. He would be a Morales not a Jermaine Jones in the BuLi.

Lletget could not get any traction at West Ham, no interest from The Championship or lower. He has been an average MLS midfielder scoring 14Gs in 111 matches.

Lletget is not close to the same league as Bradley. He is a 27 yo MLS journeyman who has not shown that he can be effective for the USMNT against quality opponents.

 

I am a fan of MLS. I very much want the domestic game to succeed. The league has some good teams, occasionally for a season a very good team, and the level is, globally speaking, pretty decent overall. But the gulf between us and the highest handful of leagues in the world is exactly that, a gulf. It is the gulf between the Championship and the Premier League, between MXL and La Liga, between the Austrian and German Bundesligas, between the Costa Rican and Brazilian topflight. And that would have all been ok as a stepping stone towards being one of the top handful of leagues in the world....
But this emphasis on parity above all else, and on growing wide at the cost of growing deep, is freezing us at a truly second rate level without any ambition or heat to aspire to something greater.
This is a long run, self-defeating, losing strategy.

But then long run self-defeating losing strategies have become the staple of our "best and brightest" for over half a century. I suppose there is a perfection in having our league and national efforts embrace the "wisdom" of this broken age..

 

This is why US N&A has fallen so much. The pendulum has swung from actual euro pixie dust to now thinking that non elite MLS players are good enough to play for major league teams. even worse, they call people who think that’s wrong as being affected by euro pixie dust. I notice that no one states that non-elite B2/championship players are better than their senior league but when it comes to MLS, that’s totally different.

To be clear, can one make a case for Cannon, Pomykal, maybe even Morris who are young rising players who are elite or close to elite MLS players in the Adams/Davies mold? Sure but that’s not what’s being done here.

even posters like @Mahtzo1 openly wonder if LAFC could compete with NUFC and other mid/low EPL team even though it has 3x less payroll.

Garber has been successful apparently in changing the perception of its fan base who now significantly overrate the league and now state that treating it like the championship/B2 is somehow demeaning and deserved of scorn via “euro pixie dust” commentary.

 

you think that Bradley is a b1 player today? Or do you mean he once was that level player?

 

Bradley in 2011 was a BuLi-level player on the right team [that is, he could have been]. Bradley now is barely an MLS -level player , but one that has found in Toronto the right team to forgive all his weaknesses and be willing to pretend as to his value.
Which they will no longer be willing to do by this very next year.

 

Bradley clearly is not currently a BuLi-level player, nor IMO has he been for the last 3 years.

Copa100 in 2016 was the last hurrah for "The Spine" of Howard, Bradley, Jones, and Dempsey. Playing for the 3rd place match against then #3 Colombia was their send off.

 

at his peak, Bradley was clearly a major leaguer but those days are long ago.

 

Part of the issue has been due to the fact that we are still growing as a soccer nation. For instance, our soccer league is still expanding and will not be complete until it reaches 32-36 teams. Add in Charlotte, Vegas, and Phoenix. Then maybe think about those last 4 spots between Indianapolis, San Diego, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Milwaukee, Detroit, Louisville, Albuquerque, Tampa Bay, and whoever else would be in contention.

Once the league is done expanding, we need to then:
-ensure a stable lower division... signs are positive.
-every MLS team must have a reserve team in USL-C or USL-1.
-every MLS team must have an academy system that meets a certain standard. Honestly, I’d employ FC Dallas and demand that every team must meet the minimum that they are doing now.
-ultimately, we need to create a legitimate, highly competitive u21/u23 league. Take the best PDL/NPSL teams and add in MLS teams, maybe even USL teams, and structure something where the best 17-20 year olds can get competitive minutes.
-loosen the push for parity in the league... if Arthur Blank wants to turn Atlanta United into Man City, beating Colorado Rapids 8-0 every game then so be it. We can’t just keep the blinders on, accept mediocrity, and expect to ever compete on the global stage. No, the Rapids and company need to be humbled. Only when mediocrity isn’t rewarded will we expect to see true progress.