So... it won't happen... until it happens. Gee, thanks. That was insightful. http://midfieldpress.com/2016/09/06...-bring-promotion-and-relegation-to-us-soccer/
You can talk about it all you want. It just seems like a waste since everything has been covered 1,000x over so I'm not sure there's much more to talk about at this point.
I had to give in and see what people were arguing against. My mistake. I was right to put you on ignore a long time ago. Simply put, TV is the driving factor and if there is even the hint of a possibility that LA or NY won't have at least one team in the league then no network is going to pay two bright blue monkey turds for broadcast rights. Pro/Rel in a country with more metro areas over 2 million people than the entire freaking EU, is so far beyond asinine that we may need to create a word specifically for the kind of stupidity required to think it could work.
Condescend, belittle, etc etc etc amirite?! List them. Buuuuuuuuuuuut: "We can support a team in either the USL or the NASL but not both... not long term, anyway. I know the Athletics FO understand that Tulsa and OKC cannot support teams in both USL and the NASL for any appreciable length of time" Buuuuuuuuuut: "We can support a team in either the USL or the NASL but not both... not long term, anyway. I know the Athletics FO understand that Tulsa and OKC cannot support teams in both USL and the NASL for any appreciable length of time"
And I was right to put your posts on IGNORE years ago. Your cynical "TV is the driving factor" argument contains some of the most mindlessly conventional drivel I've read in a long time. More Americans watch teams in the EPL on TV than give jack over shit about MLS soccer teams in NY, LA, and Chicago. More Americans watch midmajor college football and basketball on television than watch nationally televised games featuring large market teams in MLS. More Americans watch the WNBA on television than watch an MLS with teams that occupy more major markets. I am certainly one to concede that MLS needs strong teams in many of the nation's largest markets in order to ultimately succeed, but hell... I'm still waiting for MLS to have a watchable team in Chicago again. When it comes to TV ratings, Portland is more consequential as a soccer market than Chicago. So are Seattle and the Canadian MLS markets.
Well, you've got to be able to go further than skin deep. REVENUE is the driving factor HERE. The biggest potential source of that, is TV, full stop. Growing that revenue base and ensuring the product is best poised to be able to do so will be at the top of any "to do" list for the league. Which does nothing to derail the fact that TV Revenue is the biggest issue. Well ... the CFB ratings are quite the swing ... for instance KU/KSU (not mid majors) only did 264K . Of course, let's pretend that College Football (arguably the most popular sport in the country) getting more eyeballs than the MLS matches is indicative of anything .... https://worldsoccertalk.com/2016/10/25/2016-mls-tv-ratings/ http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/201...-nbcsn-world-cup-hockey-espn-viewership-wnba/ Actually ... no, they don't. Oh, and 1.4m in CAN + 324K in the US watched the 2nd leg of TFC/MTL ..... under 600K watched the WNBA Final deciding game. Sure, just like Green Bay is more consequential than Seattle to the NFL. Outliers exist. Of course, Portland is a top 20 market .... The Canadian MLS markets? Oh, the three largest markets in Canada .... all of which would be top 14 CSA's in the US. Not sure how any of that helps with taking the TV and/or Market size points down a notch.
========== Agreed. Nothing wrong with USL until the day a move up to MLS can be done. Indy would have some great instant rivals in USL- St Louis, Cincy, Louisville, Nashville-- all within decent driving distance. Could be the makings of a Mid-West type Cascadia Cup..?
This circus with our pro leagues is an extension of the problem soccer has from the youth level right to the national team. The pyramid needs fixing. In my opinion, the problems start at USSF, Gulati needs to go. Pro/Rel not happening in my lifetime (would be fun though). Instead we need to follow MLB set up- local investors like now run the lower division teams, parent club supplies some players, marketing support, etc. I could see= Academy Levels u8,u10,u12,u14,u16,u18 Then "D3" (PDL+NPSL) your U23 team + a broader/more flexible allowance for NCAA players to play in Then "D2" (NASL+USL) your reserve team Then D1 (MLS) your parent club -------- To me, this stabilizes the pyramid , gives certainty from year to year. I agree with other posts that the D2 team should not be in same city as parent- still can be nearby Maybe even the D3 team either. But you do keep all your academy teams in house so your team mentality is ingrained at a early age as players move up the pyramid. D1 and D2 max of 32 teams each (2 conf. of 16) D3- i would like to see 16 regional leagues around the country-keeping costs down by logical geographic grouping each of these could be 10-14-18 teams etc.. Some states could simply be a region by itself- California, Florida. other regions could be mulit-state, say like a New England league of teams in Maine, NH, Vermont, Ma, RI, Conn etc. - Obviously , this is a pyramid to supply professional players and players to the national team. A much smaller pyramid may be needed for all the amateur type leagues- AYSO, USYSA, Club, church leagues, city leagues, ethnic leagues, police athletic leagues, etc. Also in a parallel is High School Soccer>Jr College Soccer>NAIA>NCAA - So many pieces, not sure if we will get to where we need to be and it shows. Our country is so big, one solution may not fit all our situations
---- And the best ones are supporter developed, rather than some marketing company working for a league or TV network.
Against my better judgement, I will respond. I find you downright creepy. Despite putting you on IGNORE for months upon months rarely ever responding to you, you still stalk me on bigsoccer, stalked my friends on twitter, and even just recently stalked my facebook profile... once again, creepy. It's been you and your anti-Pro/Rel bigsoccer ilk who have, consistently over the course of years, tried to systematically stifle and smother any and all discussion by insisting on trying to monopolize the conversation by condescending, belittling, and ridiculing... My entrance into the Pro/Rel discussion was stimulated a couple of years back by your thread: "An Honest Question to the Proles." That thread had to be one of the most condescendingly vile pieces of garbage I'd ever read. To address your latest bullshit dog-chasing-its-tail rabbit-hole argument.... HELL NO... there is zero problem with my dream of wanting to see Pro/Rel in my lifetime alongside my current contention that the two markets of Tulsa and OKC are really nothing more than a relative outlier in American soccer which bookend that bizarro VSI Tampa experiment... OKC in having teams in the USL and NASL (but not for long)... and Tulsa in having a USL club who's expansion fee was paid by Energy FC while our NPSL club was stuck deciding on whether to ally itself with the OKC NASL expansion club to get a second Oklahoma NASL team in Tulsa... the quote you put in boldface and italics multiple times with which you seem obsessed in trying to beat me over the head is NOT AT ODDS with my sentiments on Pro/Rel. NOT. AT. ALL. I know that two separate OKC sports marketing groups both wanted a team in the same 3rd division league to be the first steps in the genesis of a long term MLS bid and to serve as catalyst for construction of a downtown OKC soccer specific stadium... and I know that my NPSL club in Tulsa never wanted to stop at merely existing as a relatively successful amateur organization in the NPSL. In these last few years of USL/NASL battles, I observed times in which I could see the benefit if the parties involved had the option of building a club in a viable system of Promotion/Relegation as compared to the other option of trying to recruit (dupe?) a Spanish league club into bankrolling an expansion 2nd division NASL club. I know that my club, the Tulsa Athletics, would have deservedly reaped benefits from a system of Pro/Rel between 3rd and 4th divisions (if one reasonably existed) even if we had come short of actually winning promotion. I know my club's bargaining power with county politicians and bureaucrats to remain at our 11k capacity stadium would have been stronger as a competitor in a Pro/Rel environment over the current closed system which would require us try to financially catapult past the Roughnecks into the far more expensive NASL as an inexperienced expansion club. Sadly, I wonder whether the NASL, obsessed with their old school branding, cared as much about us once they completely lost the Roughnecks trademark to USL and Energy FC.
I don't stalk you old man. I'm involved in the same forums you are. Really, it is that simple. You have a differing opinion than mine on a rather significant debate point with soccer in the US. Your particular approach and style of responding is volatile to say the least ... so yes, I quote you and continue to either point out the absurd bits that you post and challenge you on other bits. Who did I stalk on twitter? If you're talking about certain members of a supporter's group, they tweeted at me and initiated conversation. YOU ARE A FLAT OUT LYING SACK OF SHIT ABOUT THE FACEBOOK PROFILE The only other explanation for that down right asinine claims is that you think I'm someone else. Either way I'm putting a full phucking stop to that garbage here and now. You want to make a claim like that you better bring your proof to the table. I don't give two shits about you to look you up on Facebook. Except two of us that you purport to be some of the worst offenders (myself and @barroldinho) actually engaged you genuinely at first and tried to initiate discussion. You refused. The spiral has been downhill since. However, despite the snark flying both ways I continue to ask you legitimate questions and attempt to engage in the discussion you continually cry about not being able to have. Instead you try to play a victim. My entrance into the Pro/Rel discussion was stimulated a couple of years back by your thread: "An Honest Question to the Proles." That thread had to be one of the most condescendingly vile pieces of garbage I'd ever read. ^ and here you are practicing the very damned thing you hop up on a soapbox and cry foul on being done to you. A dream that NOT ONE PERSON has a problem with. That has never been the issue, especially not with myself and the others you specifically call out as being "anti pro/rel" Yes ... yes it does go against the dream of wanting pro/rel. Championing a market as the poster of what is wrong with the current system and damning it in favor of an open pyramid ... and then turning around and admitting that said market(s) couldn't support clubs in an open pyramid long term DIRECTLY CONFLICTS. AB SO LUTELY To work, the thing you want REQUIRES that long term support that you openly admit DOESN'T EXIST. That is the definition of a DIRECT CONFLICT.
Duane Rollins reporting that the NYC is ceasing operations Not many teams left for the upcoming season
Ugh, enough of the Goddamn pro/rel bullshit!!! It will NEVER work in the States! There aren't enough money, eyeballs, & structure resources here to make it work, and we are decades behind on most countries. Plus, we are a massive nation, while most European nations have a relatively small size. I decided to finally USRufnex finally because all he does when he shows up is bitch about how we are all meanies because we don't blindly worship pro/rel as this cure all panacea that will take soccer to the stratosphere in America. There's just too many damn holes in the argument. And the arguments always go like this. Guy 1: We wouldn't be in this mess if pro/rel existed. Guy 2: Wouldn't that require cooperation between multiple leagues? Not to mention what the metrics would be for promotion or relegation? Guy 1: Pro/rel will solve everything. Guy 3: Not every market can support higher levels. You need quality stadiums and amenities that go hand in hand with the highest tier throughout the pyramid. Guy 1: Pro/rel means more money! Guy 2: And what if a major market, like Chicago or Houston, under this idea, has to be demoted? That may hurt casual interest in the markets, not to mention impact the television deals. And, under this logic, that means we'd have the Red Bulls reserve squad in MLS. Guy 1: Pro/rel! Guy 4: Youze a stupidhead. Guy : PRO/REL! PRO/REL! PRO/REL! PPPPRRRRROOOOOO/RRRREEEEELLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!;!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that stuff gets us crap like doofuses saying the Cosmos should go to Liga MX. Look, I had a bad nights sleep & got laid off a week ago from my dream job. But I fer sick and tires of useless debate hijacking the original point of this thread, which is about how an NASL loyalist has disappeared when all this bad news started arriving that contradicted his unbridled optimism.
You can see this already happening in Canada. The Easton Report recommended that the provincial soccer bodies set up their own regional league to grow the base. Take Ontario for example: - At the youth level, they are setting up their Ontario Player Development League (OPDL) from U13 to U18 as players work their way through high school. The quality of play is still not quite at the level they want due to the transportation costs and training requirements leaving some of the stronger clubs to shy away from joining at this point. - They have set up a Div 3 semi-pro league in League 1 Ontario (L1O) that seems to have stabilized into a U23 league. Quebec has their LPSQ that is a true semi-pro league and BC is looking at making their PCSL meet Canadian Div 3 standards as well. Then you just need a League in the Prairies and another in the Maritimes and you'll have most of Canada covered. - The CPL being discussed would be the next level of the Pyramid and considered the stepping stone between the regional Div III leagues and the Canadian MLS teams. I think everybody needs to get beyond this Div I/II/III thinking and focus on what organization provides the best path forward for North American soccer player development.
Yup, RayoOKC and FTL will have zero travel expenses in the future! I really wish we still had @Prosoccercdn around.