Mr. Josmer Volmy Altidore

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by 50/50 Ball, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sunderland was a mess but don’t forget Jozy missed a few sitters that he absolutely should have scored and that’s what led to the loss of faith in him. Everything in the EPL is on a razors edge. Jozy isn’t without fault or responsibility for what happened to him there.
     
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  2. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    He's 11th in MLS in goals scored. Is that dominating?
     
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  3. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    In terms of minutes played and not padding his stats with PKs, it's pretty good, yeah.

    Of the 10 players above him in the scoring chart right now, his non-PK goals per minute average is essentially tied with Vela and better than everyone else's. Although, Portland's Brian Fernandez has them all beat by that measure.
     
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  4. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Really? This is the debate you want to have?
    "Has dominated on a decent team..."
    2015 - 10th best scorer in MLS. 2nd best on Tor and, I think, his .65 g/90 was best or among of US eligible players. If you want to argue Giovinco, Keane, Villa, Larin or Wright-Phillips were better USMNT choices 2105, I'm open to that argument.
    2016 - his .61 g/90 is again best or near best of all US players in league. Maybe we could start Lampard in 2016 instead.
    2017 - .62 g/90 - again best, or among best of US players in league.
    2018 - .72 g/90 in a season of restricted minutes... (Zardes .58, Wondo .39...)
    2019 - .75 g/90...
    And of course there's a bit of To silver in there someplace as well.
    I wish more than anyone we had someone clearly and undisputedly more effective at scoring goals than Jozy. That would rock. But we don't. Jozy is incredibly consistent - his 3 years in the wilderness and S'land not withstanding. He's not Ruud or Ibra. But he's ours. I hope someone comes along to produce at that consistent a level. We'd all love to find our Jari... or Dempsey.

    But misrepresenting Jozy's career does not make Jordan Morris better.
     
  5. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most USMNT fans have champagne tastes on a beer budget (available talent).
     
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  6. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He'd probably have 2-3 more without the Gold Cup break. I would like to know what he thinks about Pozuelo taking the PKs.
     
  7. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey their just trying to live the high life.
     
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  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    At international level, Bobby Woods was clearly more effective at scoring goals against decent sides. I can repost the data for the 100th time.

    MLS performance is just to get a foot in the door. Otherwise, Wondo would have been our leading international scorer.
     
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  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    So true about Wondo.

    It's a shame we couldn't have an ultra motivated and hungry combo of Jozy and Wood. Those 2 worked well together.

    I'm surprised Jozy hasn't scored more in MLS.
     
  10. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can a teenager failing to dominate even be held against him? Even if you want to, he still managed to have a very good 2010 World Cup. I posted links to some game reports and he has widely praised.
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm a Jozy fan. I don't know the ins and outs of each situation.
     
  12. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Jozy's MLS stats have been better than Wondo's every single year, fwiw.

    Wood was clearly the obvious (once AronJo got hurt) alternative to Jozy - and got call-ups and starts in line with that.

    The only thing I object to here is that some folks seem to want to disregard the rest of Jozy's data points and actual performance "cuz Sunderland." Rather than seeing a very clear trend line over his career - which is practically flat/somewhat rising - and seeing his 3 years first out of MLS and his Sunderland performances as the outliers that at best indicate his top at the league level, but don't suggest failure in the other metrics.
     
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  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    What I see statistically is Zardes would be 3rd MLS option after Jozy and the Wondo, who is older than dirt. That alone should say something. Jozy gets it done in fewer games/faster rate and has more goals AND assists. Which I think handles the theory that Zardes is somehow the better passer.

    But

    Jozy is 29 and Wondo is 36, and the tournament is not for 3 years. Heck, even Zardes is 27 and a potential risk.

    We then have young Sargent and Soto who have shown well at U20.

    So

    Currently -- in a non qualifier context -- I would be trying the younger players who pace out to the right age, with Jozy off the bench as the most productive older option. We could determine if Sargent and Soto are ready yet, and if so run with them and have the upside risk of flourishing instead of the downside risk of age and injury (and, to be blunt, performance). If they don't work, we sock them away for the future. You can then include some older players as bench options where age or injury wouldn't affect us as much. If Jozy pulls a hammy as a backup, that's less impactful than if we double down on his age and health as a starter, and at some later stage have to swap him out, and that replacement didn't get to play much.

    If all else fails, you go back to the older devils you know. But why not start with the prospects first, rather than basically beginning with a status quo that already proved frustrating and insufficient.

    I think some of the US fans' attitude towards age and their favorites ironically mimics Arena and Berhalter. We have to become a team that thinks ahead more. We can see the age and performance cliffs in front of players and yet stubbornly drive right off to avoid change and risk. The USMNT has this weird attitude where it would rather go off the cliff with the old ones than risk on the new ones. It's myopic. Past a point of age they are both risks. The youth angle is at least a positive risk. The age angle is let me root against undefeated father time.

    Let me absolve you. Bradley, Zardes, Jozy -- already not dominant. You're already taking a performance risk playing them. Plain English -- they ain't playing that great to go off the cliff with them.
     
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  14. rgli13

    rgli13 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    uh oh, people realistically considering that jozy is actually adept at soccer...a hater will be along with the HEAVILY edited "failure resume" any minute now...
     
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  15. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'd still have begged for one season of Jozy pulling a Raul Jimenez in a top 5 Euro league.
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1716 juvechelsea, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
    re the "but he sucked at x" arguments:
    if we are really trying to see such things in context, what US great has a blip free resume (eg, McBride at Wolfsburg, Dempsey at Spurs)
    i get Jozy has some blips, but how has he netted out across the years
    does he have positive seasons
    how many
    were some abroad
    how many
    don't we look at a career
    don't we look at your US production
    don't we look at who you scored on for the USA
    how much of this is success "doesn't count" for some snobs if it's not in some leagues
    do we have any strikers in those leagues right now producing
    so is this just abstracted bull

    i think there are a couple historical players more productive with fewer blips (Landon, Dempsey, Pulisic???) but not many. the people he's competing with now, these arguments sound like talking points because they aren't applied rigorously across the pool, who would show no better. For example, are we going to break down the other historical or current strikers similarly like the one who couldn't break double digits in MLS for 3 years before being traded, and who gets his goals as the focal point of a bad Columbus team?

    I don't mind saying, this means he's not the greatest ever, limited usefulness in certain contexts, etc., but past a point it's just dogging out someone to be a snob when we have rarely? ever? had anyone tenured and successful in some of these leagues. And it's like a political talking point if we then don't apply these heuristics around. Did some of these others ever play abroad? Did they have off seasons? Did they score on anyone decent in our shirt? I mean, like, point out the next guy became surplus to a merely ok LAG team. That to me is further down the scale towards Twellman Mirage, though not quite to him or to EddieJohnsonLand where you had a couple decent seasons and an important NT goal or two, but otherwise fooled us. If we're going to talk blips. Jozy just was never a back to goal guy and for about 4 years in two chunks people kept trying, because he's huge. But otherwise, his productivity is higher than McBride, with the trade off being McBride was a different kind of forward and stayed healthier then scored on bigger stages. Kind of amusing hearing people try and talk him down like he's Joe Max Moore or something. Half the reason he is as frustrating as he is, is he has been very productive in spurts.

    Also worth noting that season at AZ has to be the most goals any American in a major league has scored for a year. Like up past Wondo's year.
     
  17. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Is Dempsey's time at Spurs seen as a Flop for some? He has respectable stats. Not as great as the season before but decent overall considering he was bought late in the transfer market.
     
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  18. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    This is another in the canard basket. Very decent stats at Spurs. If we had 4 "Demps at Spurs" level attackers on the field at the same time we'd be very happy.
     
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  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Harrumph harrumph harrumph canard canard canard.

    Really? He screwed over probably his favorite team of all (Fulham), souring that McBride-level relationship (Juve goal, etc.) to make a move I assume he thought would last longer than less than a season. Plays like maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of their games, averages a goal every 295' which is like Zardes numbers. 7 goals placed him the 36th best striker that season in the EPL. There is a reason he is back out the door the following fall, including a loan back to Fulham before Seattle people forget about. In other words, he spent another half season in England with someone else. If they liked him why wasn't it a sell-loan-back like Pulisic and Dortmund? They cashed out and weren't interested in waiting to the winter window.

    To be fair, there are few people who produced at his level from here in EPL. But this was significant fall off from Fulham. And he became irregular enough, often a sub, they effectively pre-signed with Seattle to get him out, and then sent him back to Fulham to repair that relationship.
     
  20. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    what are you talking about? Dempsey may have annoyed fans with his move but they still loved him. He was their Player of the Year for two seasons. helped them become a solid mid-table club during his later years there. It makes sense he wanted to test himself at a bigger club.

    I feel that Spurs wanted a bigger star, certainly someone to replace Van Der Vaart. They wanted a sexy name but only got Dempsey. He did reasonably well IMO. It's not like Defoe or Adebayor dominated that season.
     
  21. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Do you know how many games are in an EPL season?
     
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  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Anticipating where this bit of lame pedantry is headed, after leaving a team where he was a God and started routinely and played in a Europa final, he went to Spurs and out of 38 league games started 15, subbed another 7. He signed a 3 year deal and was transferred back out after 1 season. They wanted him out sufficiently eagerly that he was not left at Spurs til winter then sent to MLS, but instead nominally signed to Seattle then loaned back to Fulham where he had just set the bridge aflame.

    He was not a complete Jozy style misfit, having already had much success for Fulham, and then an ok year for Spurs as the 36th best striker in the EPL. But one thing the snobs never factor in is the player involved in a MLS return having been told they are surplus, or shifted to the bench.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1723 juvechelsea, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    I am a Fulham fan. The coach was p*ssed and sent him to train with the kids. The fans generally saw it as a betrayal. I am not dismissing what he was to Fulham "before." I know precisely what that was. I am saying he put it in a trash can and set it aflame with how he acted. There is a reason there is a McBride Pub but not as much recognition of a player who arguably was even better for Fulham.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/fulham-0-3-tottenham-clint-dempsey-1469921

    Like people live in a dream or something.

    Also like some of the snobs haven;t ever actually been to these places and don't know this is basically moving to a cross-town team. Fulham, Chelsea, and QPR, for example, are all within a mile or two of each other. Walking distance. White Hart Lane is 14 miles from Craven Cottage cross town London. So there is a particular angst in it being Spurs.

    There is like one story after another of USMNT who make one move too many prompted by the ambition drive. The biggest move to the best team for the most money is not always best for your career, legacy, relationships. He would have been in the Fulham pantheon. As it is, thankful but sour taste in my mouth. And as someone who watches the "Fulhamerica" fakers come in and out when we sign someone, I was particularly annoyed with the ones who took his side and then bought their Spurs shirt.
     
  24. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Or, what some folks don't get is Demps transferred to Seattle for ~10 million to Spurs (completely recouping their investment) and paid him TWENTY-FOUR MILLION US DOLLARS OVER 3 YEARS. (breaking Beckham's record salary...) He also has 4 kids.

    Demps was no kind of legend at Spurs, but he had 2000 league minutes, as well as 10 European games (I think - 43 total apps with 12 goals) and started regularly. He was no vdVaart or Modric, but he played a lot of games and I'm hard pressed to call a $24 million pay check a fail...
     
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  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    He averages out to a goal every game and a half, and if healthy would be up more like 15 goals in 4th. 5th on goals per 90 at 0.75. If the argument is he is not better than Carlos Vela or Brian Fernandez and the class of the league, ok. But he is up near the top and the class of the US strikers.
     
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