Mr. Josmer Volmy Altidore

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by 50/50 Ball, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    You're right, I should have included that. Though did anyone mention McBride's injury in the Italy match?

    Maybe Jozy might have scored but let's face it; he doesn't score against big teams. I'm not sure how his performances are. I'm aware the team plays (played) better with him up top and with a Wood or Dempsey tucked in from behind. But Jozy doesn't really get on the scoresheet outside of CONCACAF minnows.
     
  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The career stats are pretty worthless but people keep making generalizations that aren't backed up by facts.

    The game has changed since McBride retired. CONCACAF is stronger and both the EPL and MLS are at a higher level. That doesn't make McBride any less effective but it's difficult to do a direct comparison.

    Jozy isn't a traditional center-forward, which I believe is one of the reasons he failed in England, particularly at Sunderland.
     
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  3. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    Despite his age, I would argue that Jozy is a more viable option than Bobby for this cycle. While they're both strikers, Wood's strength is his speed and his ability to make runs. Age will take a toll on that - and frankly, I haven't seen the progression that Wood needs in order to sustain that role as his athleticism declines. Jozy, on the other hand, is the classic striker who stays up in the box. That's a role that translates better as a striker enters his 30s.

    Jozy is the guy who can do just one thing, but does it extremely well. Definitely the best on the current team, and in my opinion, the best for the USMNT ever. As I've said before, Jozy is best suited as a classic striker who can deliver the final ball or the finish - it's a role he excels in, when he gets the service. But against good opposition, the USMNT isn't able to provide that - Jozy is starved of service and consequently is a non-factor.

    I'm not happy with Jozy because of this lack of flexibility. In the modern game, strikers are usually called upon to do more, to contribute to build-up, to contribute to possession, to track back, to make off-the-ball movements that free up themselves and others. Jozy can't really do those things.

    That said, Wood is also limited, and is not as capable within those limitations. And if anything, Wood seems to have peaked early - though we can hope his form improves.
     
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  4. PassionOfTheFoot

    Feb 12, 2002
    Incheon, South Korea
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What I remember about McBride was his ability to often win a header (the Chad Marshall goal being an exception, haha). He allowed us to retain possession by laying off a header or flicking it on to an onrushing player, something that can't really be measured for its importance. This would ultimately frustrate his opponent and they would resort to fouling him around the box, leading to dangerous set pieces. Nothing against Jozy, but for a seemingly strong player he sure sucks at using his body against an opponent. It's strange to see him bodied off the ball so easily.

    McBride's defensive contribution was quite significant too, as he was excellent on defensive set pieces. Good ol' McHead.
     
  5. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jozy’s biggest issue has always been himself. He’s got all the tools but he just doesn’t have IT. Mentality is one of his biggest weaknesses. It’s a shame but it is what it is. He can lurk in the shadows but he shouldn’t be first 11 even if he’s currently better than some of the younger options. Sargent looks to have IT. Soto might as well. Let’s see what the kids can do.
     
  6. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Being that Jozy scores against good opponents at a very high rate for AZ and TFC, the service/utilization seems to be the issue.

    Same to below. Why do you think that a mid hex game is more pressure than knockout competition against Ajax or Tigres?

    He's not good enough to carry a bad team. Given support, he scores. The USMNT didn't play a Vazquez or Giovinco in the hex, Gregg barely let him play in the Gold Cup and didn't play a playmaker besides Pulisic when he did.

     
  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1682 juvechelsea, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
    When you list failed Jozy stops, that is fair, but only to a point. "Well but how many goals did he score at Hull Sunderland etc. harrumph harrumph......"

    Yeah, ummm, but isn't that 31 goal AZ season like basically the most an American has had in a serious league, ever? Like more than Wondo in his best year. And these are all sequential. He goes from awesome to bad snapping fingers. That without a bad injury does not happen in reality. That is a fit issue.

    We all know what happened. He was not a back to goal like the EPL and others stereotyped. Most US fans could have told them that. He is -- somewhat ironically for someone built like a tank more than any American striker perhaps ever -- better facing goal. He flourished in the wide open eredivisie. But that wasn't good enough for the snobs or his ambition (might tell Dest and Mendez -- or Bradley, Beasley, Stewart, etc. historically -- that you're just tossing your career away.....for some reason, perhaps financial, we tend to avoid or flee one of the more receptive locales we have).

    His career then magically fixed itself when he came back home. Or is this, as with Wood, Sargent, or others, indicative that following the monthly form book is a tad silly.

    Kind of like if you whacked balls over the top McBride would be fairly useless. Or like how a 442 target striker might be awesome for 3 games per goal working with his back to net and getting a lot of headers.

    It's all about context. McBride was very good at his specific thing, better than Ching, Gordon, or even Jozy at that thing. Jozy does a different thing and when they tried to turn him into McBride was a joke. McBride or Jozy compared to someone like Dempsey are wasteful finishers. We have progressed on the sniper game. I see Sargent in that mold. These are all different riffs on the forward concept.

    Jozy has a high strike rate but when we're whacking elevated crosses no one can deal with I would kind of like a McBride.

    If you were going strictly by numbers it would be Jozy or Pulisic and maybe Sargent right now. I grant the validity of the strike rate arguments. But to me part of the role of a NT coach is to think in terms of cycles and anticipate long horizons of development and performance and health and age. What am I building towards in 3 years. The current, unsuccessful vogue here seems to be to waste early years of elite youth players -- with limited exceptions -- with bad bets on the old guard. Ironically, that the bad bets are young, and the better money is old guard money. This doesn't align with where the NT is actually succeeding, but beyond a couple players (Pulisic and McKennie), we err on the side of holding youth players to adult club bona fides, and almost more so than the 25 or 30 year olds with whom they compete.

    The problem is no one thinks about (except for on Pulisic perhaps), if I invest 3 years in young player x, what does he look like by Qatar, versus, what does Jozy's downside risk look like in 3 years. Or, worse, Bradley's.
     
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  8. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    Folks like to talk about his horrible showing at Sunderland and never mention that he was actually one of the better players while Sunderland were sucking it up initially. He was well reviewed on here as well as the Sunderland forums. He had some bad luck on a couple of potential goals, his form went to crap, nearly everyone turned on him and the rest is history. He probably should of walked out of Sunderland with 8-10 goals but the fact he failed in that setup isn’t surprising.
     
  9. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    and before we start with the “well Jermaine Defoe did fine at Sunderland” lets just agree that Jozy isn’t as good as Jermaine Defoe
     
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  10. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The smart thing would be to bring the kids and Jozy. I would have let Sargent and Ebobisse split the minutes.

    I watched a lot of the games. If they let him take his own pks he would have had 3 or so. A fair return for his play was about 5-8 goals.

    I wish he had gone to a better team for his game than Sunderland but alas.
     
  11. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Defoe, the 7th highest PL scorer of all time, capped 57 times with 20 goals. Yeah, he's a smidge better.


    Name all the American players who are better than Defoe...
     
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  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But Ebobisse is rubbish.
     
  13. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    I wouldn't call myself a hater. I think it's time to move on to younger talents. I think Jozy gets the job done at MLS/Eredivisie levels but can't get it done at higher levels. I think Jozy plays harder for TFC than he does for UWMNT. If that's your definition of hate so be it.

    I do think USMNT has a poor habit of placing players into the team and keeping them far too long. This is nothing new as the 98 team needing Wynalda as a wing because of his experience is a prime example. We should be looking at different players now and see who can play rather than panicking in a year or two if something happens to our first, unchallenged choice.
     
  14. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? What don't you like?

    I like his hold-up play,and he's hungry to score.
     
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  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's always a step behind, physically and mentally. He'd be quite promising if he was 17 but he's 22.
     
  16. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll have to watch him more.
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well he is playing with Valeri, Hernandez and Blanco, who could all walk into the USMNT squad.
     
  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
     
  19. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1162903827831500801 is not a valid tweet id


    Jozy has been racking up the 90 minute appearances as well as the points.
     
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  20. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    He failed at Sunderland because that team, its culture and the coaching was laughable. And the reality is Sunderland managed to at least stay up with Jozy there - playing DCF (defensive center forward). They soon dropped when they got a guy who could score but couldn't help defensively, and the rest of S'land wasn't good enough to stop a wet linguine noodle.

    People who fail to look at the overall trend line of Jozy - even for the US - while he was "failing" at Sunderland just don't get the game.
     
  21. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Defoe is a little scoring machine. In the right set-up he's incredibly productive. If he were on the USMNT we'd be saying Rossi who?
     
  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He also failed at Villareal, Xerex, Hull and in Turkey.
     
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  23. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Yep, those 3 seasons were not great for the 20 - 22 year old, no doubt...

    The point being? - in those same 3 years he scored like 10 goals in 30 caps for the US...

    Over his career, he's been pretty consistent. Jozy has dominated on a decent team in the Ered/MLS, has been very consistent for the US, and was not able to impact the EPL on very crappy teams. (Turkey is too short to draw much of a conclusion. Spain was a league to far too soon for sure.)

    There is no doubt that Jozy is not as effective a goal scorer as Defoe or many other top players. But there's also no doubt the US has exactly 0 active players who are as effective goal scorers as Defoe or many other top players.

    Jozy is what Jozy is. He's not good enough to transcend the Hulls and S'lands of the world. Could he produce on a better EPL team? Probably. Would a better EPL want him? I'm guessing it's too late for that. If he wanted another kick at that can, it would likely have to be another bottom-feeder tossing a desperation buy/loan. And the result would likely be similar.
     
  24. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was good enough to be a consistent member of Sunderland's 18 at his worst. He could definitely play in the PL on a different team. If he'd hung around he could still be on some team or other.
     
  25. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to mention that he isn't the same kind of forward as Defoe.
     
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