Mr. Josmer Volmy Altidore

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by 50/50 Ball, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many games is that? How many opportunities has Jozy had against high-level teams in competitive play? He missed the WC and the Copa America, he played in the 2009/2010 Confed Cup/WC. I'll bet there are fewer than 10 chances for Jozy to prove himself at that level, over Jozy's entire career.
     
  2. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    ~20 matches. He has the Spain goal; the drawn pk against Italy; the assist against Slovenia; and a goal against Honduras, the last which is the only relatively recent tally against a decent side.
     
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  3. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/...tos-jozy-altidore-may-be-best-form-his-career
    Those are some pretty huge moments you tallied there. He is 26,and has basically missed every tournament since 2014.
    Unless you think he has gotten worse, I see pretty good reason for optimism and excitement for his international prospects.
     
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  4. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Mostly years ago, he had some big moments in competitive matches against quality opponents; however, those moments have been too few and far between. Jozy looks to have improved in certain aspects of his game, though.
     
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  5. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have to talk about his injury record when you talk about this. We only play competitive matches against big names in summer tourneys. He's been hurt for pretty much all of them since 2010.
     
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  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    ^THIS. He's got Wayne Rooney syndrome
     
  7. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Iceland haha. Iceland has done okay but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Not to mention wasn't it a B team that he played against?
     
  8. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Jozy is due 1 tournament to make his legacy on ala McBride in 2002 WC or Donovan in the 2o10 WC

    Perhaps we luck in and Jozy delivers like 3 goals and a few assists in the next WC and gets us to the QF.
     
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  9. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    After 2006 lots of the discussion about Landon was that he was not good in big games, this largely based on 180/270 minutes he played over two weeks. Thomas Muller is going to end up as the WC's all time leading scorer and is a Euro "flop". I think a lot of this is just the randomness of a sport where 3 total goals in a game is above average. I'd look to the career as a whole. If a guy never performs against good teams that's one thing, if it's only sometimes that's something else.

    The biggest negative then are Jozy's stints at Hull and Sunderland (team's whose leading scorers had 6, 8, and 5 league goals).
     
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  10. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Agreed

    but that's the value and absurdity of judging a person's summer tournament versus his season prior such as say Hal Robson Kanu with 2 goals in 5 matches for Wales and only 3 goals last season for Reading in the Championship yet somehow fans and clubs are drooling over him.
     
  11. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Jozy has had ~20 competitive matches against Honduras, Mexico, Costa Rica, in World Cups, and in the Confederations. That is not a small sample size. His failures in Spain and England are immaterial.
     
  12. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What about context? How many goals did the team score in those? Was he drawing defenders to open space for his teammates? I know that he played a key part in the Algeria goal at WC 2010 but maybe doesn't get an assist.

    To my eye, the USMNT is in better position to score with him on the field.

     
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  13. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many opportunities has Jozy had to play against top-level international competition in competitive play? He's missed the last WC and Copa through injury. I'd wager he has 10 ish games against such opponents in his career. CC 09 is 4 games, then two during WC2010. Then add games vs Mexico/Costa Rica. It's a pretty small sample size. And, it's not usual that Jozy plays, gets subbed out, and suddenly we look better. Indeed, his hamstring injury killed us in 2014.

    He may not be a "World Class" striker, but when he's hot, he can get thereabouts, at least for a little while.
     
  14. DeAndresHaircut

    DeAndresHaircut Member+

    Jul 24, 2015
    Pennsylvania
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He scored again today (it looked offside though)
     
  15. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Imagine if the choice was to either play Jozy or make him an international free-agent. We definitely would not want to have to play against Jozy. I think the whole dialogue about him would be different if he played for another hex team.
     
  16. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    It's amazing how much hate a player like Altidore gets, when all types of excuses are made for Zardes not being able to score against teams of that caliber.
     
  17. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Since 2010, I believe he has made 3 competitive appearances lasting more than 20 minutes against top quality opposition (better than mid-Hex level, to use IE's criteria):

    - Costa Rica in March 2013 (Dempsey scored our only goal on a rebound off an Alitodre strike);
    - Mexico in March 2013 (a 0-0 draw at the Azteca where Atidore played 55 minutes);
    - Mexico in October 2015.

    He got injured 20 minutes into the WC 2014 opener against Ghana and had a 19 minute appearance in 2013 against Costa Rica in our 3-1 loss at Saprissa. That adds up to about 3 full games worth of competitive minutes since 2010.

    He was injured for the Mexico GC final in 2011, suspended for the home Mexico qualifier in 2013, injured for more or less the entire 2014 World Cup, not deemed fit enough to play in the 2015 Gold Cup knockout stage, and injured for the entire 2016 Copa America.

    So the idea that Altidore doesn't produce in competitive play against better than mid-Hex opposition relies pretty heavily on either 3 games worth of minutes since 2010 or the assumption that Altidore was roughly the same quality player as a teenager as he was for his early to mid 20's.
     
  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Altidore did a great job of holding up his run to stay onside for the goal.

    If one wants to claim Altidore didn't get enough competitive internationals since whatever date then I would add that in the EPL and La Liga, he played better than middle of the hex comp.
     
  19. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That quality of answer is what makes internet discussions worthwhile. Thanks for doing the research.
     
  20. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Too bad Giovinco isn't eligible for the red white & blue.
     
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  21. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He is now the 'veteran' striker that Klinsman seems to need on every roster; that means no more Wondo.

    Altidore, Zardes, Morris, and Wood. I'd be content come 2018 with that.
     
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  22. olephill2

    olephill2 Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's actually a myth (which, admittedly, I once believed as well until I looked up the stats): http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/debunking-the-jozy-altidore-hate-on-bigsoccer.2030655/ (excerpt below from my title post):

    Now, with that said, I fully agree that he has been absent or in poor form due to injury way too often in meaningful tournaments (2011 Gold Cup, 2014 World Cup, 2015 Gold Cup, 2016 Copa America). But he does has a good strike rate in competitive matches.
     
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  23. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I liked your thread, I just wanted to move away from acknowledging the undeserved hate in the title.
     
  24. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    He has a mediocre competitive record against decent sides. That is the context of my post. You're attempting to address something else, which has nothing to do my argument.
     
  25. olephill2

    olephill2 Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair point, but I'm curious how you define "decent sides"? When I have some free time, I'd be interested in comparing Jozy's strike rate (goals/caps) against "decent sides" (once we solidify a definition) vs. other USMNT players like Clint Dempsey, Landon Donovan, Eric Wynalda and Brian McBride, to see if that holds true. Off hand, I'd bet Dempsey's goal scoring record vs. good teams is off the charts compared to the others, but I wouldn't be surprised if Altidore's compares favorably with all of the other top goal scorers in USMNT history outside of Dempsey.
     

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