Moving Forward From the Gold Cup

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Maximum Optimal, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    Agreed. I need to see him against Champion's League teams doing well (check) or making Bayern look silly in BL1 play (check). When he's healthy and is in favor with the coach of the day, he shows. In the second half against Mexico he rarely got to touch the ball compared to the first half because Mexico pressed and he had to play D to help the inept defense and to cover for turnover after turnover he wasn't involved in. Messi can't make Argentina's men's team good so let's hang this one on the 20 year old.
     
  2. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What the Hell does this have to do with whether he is thriving in Berhalter's system or not?

    Here's a tip, for context pay some attention to the posts people reply to...

    PS He's going to need to learn to be involved when good teams press us.
     
  3. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What do you think of bringing Tab Ramos in as midfield manager?
    Why not make it simple and put Pomykal in for McKennie, done and dusted.

    We'll have a good comparison of how each style fits in with present personnel. I think we'll be without Pulisic and Adams due to CL schedule. McKennie probably needs time to sort out his club situation with the new coach.

    ------------arriola-----jozy----morris/boyd?
    --------------pomykal-----Roldan/lletget/mihailovic/whomever
    ------------------------trapp/bradley
    -----ream----long----------------miazga/zim---lima/cannon

    i.o.w., pomykal + 1 play for Pulisic + Wes.
     
  4. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I always felt Reyna made that all tournament team because nobody knew who the hell anyone was on our team other than him, that, and he played well.

    As you mentioned:
    McBride was a decisive figure against Portugal and Mexico.
    Donovan was a decisive figure against Portugal, Poland, Mexico and Germany.
    Mathis was a decisive figure against S. Korea and Poland, and nearly provided the assist for an equalizer against Germany.
    Wolff and Lewis had big moments against Mexico.
    Beasley was just damn good.
    Cobi mentally broke Mexico.
    Reyna was good, and great vs Germany.
    O'Brien was fantastic, other than the hand ball vs Mexico.

    The Defense was insanely good except for the melt down against Poland and Agoos who had a nightmare tournament (3 goals allowed combined by opponents against Portugal, S. Korea, Mexico and Germany? That's absurd.)

    Friedel was spectacular.

    I'm probably forgetting people (Heydude, who was the ultimate glue guy that tourney), but the only guys who were disappointing were what Agoos and, maybe Stewart shanking a chance for a fourth goal against Portugal (I think Pope did as well though).

    It was a near perfect tournament and one that contrary to revisionist arguments, involved us repeatedly suffering bad luck and advancing anyway until a ref finally figured out how to royally screw us so thoroughly that we just couldn't make it back (consider Portugal's goals, an own goal, and a fluke clearance directly to Beto's foot, S. Korea getting a bogus PK, and scoring off a non-foul (Germany's goal was scored in a similar situation, an incredibly soft maybe foul). Getting hosed on Donovan's equalizer against Poland and giving up a 2nd goal while we were bitching at the ref, then hit the post as well. The German game where we had probably 3 expected goals if not 4 and got zero (well, 1, sort of). Yes it could've all gone out the window if S. Korea hadn't beaten Portugal, but, we can play other if's too, like, "How did S. Korea fail to score on much easier chances repeatedly in that game while up a man? What if the ref doesn't screw us over on Donovan's goal vs Poland, and Mathis doesn't hit the post? What if S. Korea doesn't get that equalizer etc. We can play a lot of what ifs. It would've been a huge injustice if that Portugal side had advanced, they were lucky to be in that position at all after that insane melt down against S. Korea, and their performance against us. Considering that we'd be hosed again against the refs vs Ghana four years later, and yet again vs Slovenia, and then Algeria in the next tournament, I'm flat out NEVER buying the lucky argument.
     
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  5. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Then cross your fingers with Ledezma, because we don't really have a lot of prospects that fit that traditional #10 concept, Alex Mendez has the passing chops, but not the speed, work rate or fitness. It's a problem. We're probably going to have to improvise a bit in how the idea of a playmaker works. We just don't have "That guy," we have a lot of, "has some of those tools and on the right day,".
     
  6. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't forget Tony Sanneh! He was freaking AMAZING at right back. I couldn't believe how good he was in 2002.
     
  7. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I'm not, I just remember him for the picture perfect cross to McBride against Portugal, and the near miss equalizer off Mathis' chipped pass to the post late on against Germany. He had the tournament of his life, and I imagine we all knew that he wasn't that guy, he just picked the perfect moment to be the greatest ever version of his soccer self.
     
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  8. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wrong coach. We're stuck with him for the entire cycle.

    Someone call Almeyda at San Jose. Much better coach. Doesn't speak English sadly.
     
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  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Almeyda is a very good coach. But man, people would have turned on him already.

    He plays a "gimmicky" system. He took 10+ weeks with the Quakes to get them looking like something passable. He wouldn't be anywhere near that time with anyone except MLSers. He built it on a foundation of culture that may require a lot more touches than a national team.

    And he benched almost all of his best players early on: Wondo, Vako, Lima. He played a bunch of players out of position. He's asked things of players they've never done before.

    You would NOT recommend his system to a team with the Quakes' roster.

    I wonder if his non-MLSness would have granted him more leniency, given that nearly all of things that people complain about Berhalter could apply to Almeyda. He's just had every day with these guys to fix it.
     
  10. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Great post. But, dude, how can you leave out Sanneh - he may have been our best player in that tournament.
     
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  11. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i dont think best player at all, but certainly the widest what-they-actually-were to how-they-played ratio.
     
  12. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    Here's a tip; Egg's system is a joke and the US doesn't have enough talent to keep the best talent on the bench so he's comfy with his career .400 winning % system. You have a small crowd that's still defending this crap show. I've seen more than enough.
     
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  13. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL, I'm not defending his system.

    As a matter of fact, I was pointing out that we don't have enough information to say that Pulisic is "thriving in his system", which was the contention of the post which I originally replied to, before you responded with how he played in Champions League....
     
  14. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    I really wasn't attacking you 'defending' him, I lost it defending the 'system' to even talk of dismissing CP or McKennie, which I read all to often here. It's a luxury that England or Germany could discuss. The US cannot.
     
  15. nikeboots

    nikeboots Member

    Jul 21, 2012
    Ohio/Oklahoma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a bit off-topic from the larger point. But why do you use the .400% winning percentage as a measure of his coaching performance? I've only seen it used for soccer on this forum.

    The winning percentage as a measure of performance only makes sense when there's two outcomes: a win or a loss. We obviously have draws in soccer, so that skews what wining percentage means. Looking at Berhalter's career, he has 102 wins, 63 draws, and 85 losses. So he wins 41% of his games, draws 25% and loses 34%. Berhalter wins more than he draws or loses, which doesn't seem like a negative.

    Using points per game makes much more sense, in my opinion because it accounts for draws and, more broadly, it is how the soccer world operates.

    For those interested:
    Berhalter has a career 1.476 ppg average.
    Bob Bradley has career 1.652 ppg average.
    Tata Martino has career 1.894 ppg average.
    Juan Carlos Osorio has career 1.332 average.
     
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  16. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    LB, striker & DM are all positions of want, the last one mainly because Egg is going to stick with Adams as a RB.
     
  17. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I mentioned him later lol. I remember him because his awkward, halting, loping give and go and then run and stutter step and goofy cross to McBride was probably one of the weirdest, least expected, imaginable events in any World Cup match for the USMNT ever, if you didn't include Donovan bouncing a ball off the back/head of a Portugal defender and scoring off of it. Not only that, but of course it's one of the most awkward looking moments that also happened to be a part of the biggest upset win by the USMNT in 50 or so years.

    Just rewatch that video. It's lol glorious. Looks like a run/cross/goal out of a rec ball weekend league in San Mateo in the 80's, not the winner in a match against a dark horse favorite to win the World Cup in 2002.

     
  18. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Lol at the thought of GrandInquisitor in pick up games thinking "I could play in the World Cup."
     
  19. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Imagine the players' reaction when out comes "No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition!"....
     
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  20. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    You ask why then post his 40% winning %......odd.

    I don't want to look at draws because when the game counts that means a penalty shootout and the US doesn't stack up well against better teams there, so that ends up as a loss.

    Spinning his record as a mediocre coach is not something I care to engage in. He's not a good coach, he doesn't know talent and he's force fitting mediocre talent into a rigid system. Not sure he's capable of making adjustments to his system or putting the best players on the pitch together.
     
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  21. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    It's a fantastic cross. He basically curls it around defenders into McBride's face.

    If only we had some guys who can do that today.

    On that team there were multiple guys who could put the ball in the box and multiple guys who could finish. We have gone backwards.
     
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  22. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    #197 NietzscheIsDead, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    Coming out of that tournament, I have the players ranked like this until the next major exhibition, at which time you reassess whether or not some of the younger players can move up or whether you need to go back to the veterans:

    -------------------------1.Altidore---------------------------------
    --------------------------2.Weah------------------------------------
    -------------------------3.Sargent----------------------------------
    1.Pulisic------------------------------------------------1.Boyd
    2.Arriola -----------------------------------------------2.Morris
    3.Lleget------------------------------------------------ 3.Akinola
    ---------------------------1.McKennie---------------------------------
    ---------------------------2.Pomykal-------------------------------------
    ---------------------------3. Mendez-------------------------------------
    1.Arriola-------------------------------------------------1.Pomykal
    2.Weah---------------------------------------------------2.Holmes
    3.Llanez--------------------------------------------------3.Reyna
    ----------------------------1.Adams--------------------------------------
    ----------------------------2.Bradley--------------------------------------
    ----------------------------3.McKennie----------------------------------
    1.Ream----------------------------------------------------1. Yedlin
    2.Robinson-----------------------------------------------2.Cannon
    3.Gloster -------------------------------------------------3.Lima/Dest
    ------------------1.Brooks----------------1.Long-------------------------
    ------------------2.Richards-------------2.Miazga---------------------
    -------------------3.Ream-----------------3.Zimmerman-------------
    ---------------------------------1.Steffen-------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------2.Horvath-------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------3.Guzan---------------------------------------
     
  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #198 DHC1, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    Respectfully disagree. Even adding Brooks, Yedlin and Holmes (who I'm not sure would have made the squad) would put us to 18/28 from MLS. That's not reflective of our pool balance.

    If one looks at the players who were brought into the last two camps (setting aside Camp Cupcake), the balance is equally pronounced.

    I am sympathetic to the choices around the U20 tournament so let's see how the next camp plays out. We only have 12 months until the Hex starts - we need to move in one of two directions:

    1 - if we're still going to rely on older veterans, bring in the ones who still have the ability to play at the major league level: Bradley, Ream and Omar have clearly shown that they no longer can compete at the international level (although the first two were adequate against non-Mexican CONCACAF opponents). This means more Euro-based players and moving away from having Bradley as our centerpiece.

    2 - if we're moving towards youth, let's get our highest ceiling guys together and have them familiarize themselves with each other and a more basic system so they can grow together - we may have to accept some rockiness along this path but making sure that they communicate well with each other will take 12 months of international time. This also means more Euro-based players.
     
  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Why is it when Berhalter sits someone, the most reasonable explanation is that the player asked out?
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think that MLS should "fully embrace" being a developmental league and be the best one in the world.

    You think that they should NEVER "fully embrace" it.

    That's almost definitionally being in complete opposition.

    BTW, fully embracing being a developmental league doesn't mean you can be other things - it does preclude one from being a destination league however, which is my point.
     

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