By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
  1. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines

    MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

    By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
    Not a huge fan of Deadspin, truth be told, but one of their writers put Hall of Fame voting in perspective for me. Albert Burnenko wrote – well, you know what, here's are the links where he speaks his mind on the topic, he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself.

    https://twitter.com/AlbertBurneko/status/1071966845366927360

    https://adequateman.deadspin.com/everywhere-is-gross-1831177946

    If you're click-phobic, here's what I consider the relevant line.

    “It’s bad to me that I’d have to spend 0.03 seconds strolling past a plaque with this guy’s face on it if I visited that museum” - literally every argument ever made against a given player making the HOF in any sport

    Needless to say, I feel, as the kids say, seen. David Beckham is the latest on my list of "ha ha, no" potential inductees, but there were others before him. I'll try not to have too many others after him. Or if I do, I'll try to phrase it as "there were simply ten or more who I thought were more deserving."

    Beckham technically breaks the criteria I set for myself – does the story of American soccer make sense without this player? Well, no. But then, you can't tell the story of American soccer without Phil Anschutz, and how many assists did he have?

    Last year I voted for Ante Razov, a player that…I believe was not the tenth most deserving player on the ballot. But it was his final year, and I didn't want the fact that I didn't particularly care for the guy ruin his final, if unlikely, chance to induction. Besides, I had a vote or two to spare. Jeff Cunningham was the one I left off, and I had time, and every intention, to make it up to him.

    No harm, no foul. Razov was not inducted, Cunningham is still on the ballot.

    I had no intention of making it a rule to bow towards people whose time was running out. Razov didn't have a fantastic off-season in 2017. Nothing changed at all. The only difference was who else was on the ballot.

    A year later, the Hall distributes its ballot, which I proceed to order in the following manner.

    Abby Wambach*
    Shannon Boxx*
    Kate Sobrero Markgraf
    Jaime Moreno
    Carlos Bocanegra
    Steve Cherundolo
    Frankie Hejduk
    Lauren Cheney Holiday*
    Homare Sawa*
    Taylor Twellman**


    This isn't the best ballot I've seen, or will ever see – probably the Mia Hamm/Julie Foudy ballot wins that prize. But this is the toughest ballot I've seen. This is the first ballot where I've failed to vote for a player that I voted for previously, when it was possible. I dropped the first goalkeeper to win multiple MLS Cups, and I dropped the all-time MLS assist leader at the time of his retirement.

    Looking back, I could have dropped Abby. She would have made it in comfortably in any case, and at least I could have put Cat Reddick Whitehill on. But she deserves to go in unanimously, even if she wasn't my favorite player and I didn't like watching her play and I didn't like the way the national team looked during her career and I thought magicJack was a blot on the sport and oh, well, too late now, I voted for her.

    No, she really does deserve to go in unanimously. Just because there were other players who also deserved to go in unanimously, but did not, has no bearing on this.

    Boxx and Cheney Holiday belong, too. You can read their bios if you disagree.

    Homare Sawa belongs, partly for the same reason I've tried to make a campaign for Jaime Moreno and Pat Onstad. It's not the US National Team Hall of Fame. It's the US Soccer Hall of Fame. If the women's club scene in the 2000's was largely a promenade of disappointment, that certainly wasn't the fault of a superstar like Homare Sawa.

    Not going to lie to you, though. She's on the ballot because Sissi can't be, and because I'm genuinely afraid she won't be on the ballot next year if I and a few others don't stick my neck out. The precedent for international players on the men's side is horrible enough, but down the road we'll have Marta, Christine Sinclair, Sam Kerr, and who knows who else. Players who played in America contributed to American soccer. I don't feel too horrible about forcing Pat Onstad to step aside for one year (assuming he cares about my ballot in the first place).

    Then there's Taylor Twellman.

    I couldn't live with myself, folks. Maybe I should have the ballot taken away from me for this, but I couldn't do it. What if. What if it was my one vote that kept him out.

    "Then the Veterans Committee would put him in eventually, you goof, stop acting like you're Hodor or whatever."

    ….no, I still think I did the right thing.

    Is the logic of not voting for someone until the last possible moment defensible? Nope! Do I plan to do this every year? Well, um, I didn't with Ben Olsen or Tony Sanneh. I'll probably limit it to people I've voted for in the past that may not be in the top ten of a particular ballot. I'd have made room for Steve Ralston and Jeff Cunningham somehow if it were there last year.

    I still hate the idea of a "sympathy" Hall of Fame vote. And that's not what this was, Taylor Twellman has a good solid case. I put him ahead of other people who have good solid cases, which isn't a crime. But it was a gamesmanship, ballot-rigging vote, and even though Albert Burneko would approve – well, actually, no, he probably wouldn't, he strikes me as someone difficult to please – I feel like I made the best of a lousy situation.

    I was going to say these ballots aren't going to get any easier, but maybe they will! We miss the World Cup a few more times, or if the women decide to make it a habit of getting bounced in the quarterfinals or before? That would thin the herd out beautifully! Christian Pulisic would be the only player voted in for a two-decade stretch, but at least the votes would be easy.

    _________

    Fine, so Ohio isn't really the world capital of association football. And you know what, it might even be some time before it is – three, maybe five years, who knows?

    For fan bases this close in proximity, it's fun to see how different they already are. Columbus Crew Stadium – or MAPFRE Stadium, if you're some sort of capitalist – is full of wizened, hardened fans who love the Crew and hate MLS. There will be a siege mentality in that fanbase probably for over a decade, assuming it ever goes away. They may not be angry or desperate as much as last year, but they battled every week, every game.

    I'm not a Columbus Crew fan, but it feels more like home. Part of it, of course, is that for a generation of US men's national team fans, it was home. I think Precourt took that away from us, and we'll see how many of the ghosts and spirits make the commute to the new stadium. But for now, those are the same walls, same benches, same slabs of concrete. Major League Soccer fans who don't support the US are, of course, not obliged to get misty-eyed over this.

    But there's a shared experience among longtime MLS fans, mostly surprise at being longtime MLS fans. Again, I'm probably projecting here in my senescence, but Major League Soccer was such a Generation X league. We grew up thinking we'd be nuked due to the malice or hatred of some incompetent dictator. Or the Soviet Union, whichever.

    KIDDING! I'm KIDDING, we're all pals here. How's the vegan veal, everybody?

    So of course the league had "dying young" spray-painted all over it. So did human civilization. We thought the baby boomers were going to kill us all. Or at least, do it more quickly.

    I mean, was this the work of someone who thought they would live to see 30?

    galaxymascot_0.jpg

    Crew fans – like Earthquakes fans most obviously, but also RSL fans, Sporting KC fans, Rapids fans, and of course everyone who was around when the Florida teams were folded – are surprised to still be here, for lots of reasons. I can relate, man. That's why it's fun to go to Columbus, even if the weather is terrible and you're stuck in front of two yapping bloggers who think they're just so damn amusing. We can kick it like it's 1996 now.

    Columbus, the city, is home to a gigantic college and a gigantic state government. It's a mixture of forward thinking progressivism and entrenched political power. Kind of like…

    I wasn't going to say Austin. I was going to say…crap, I need a state capital with a huge university….

    Tallahassee. Yes. Columbus is kind of like Tallahassee, Florida.

    In any case, the hunted underdog feel of the Crew seems weird in their current context. It will be interesting to see if the tone changes when the new stadium goes up. It might even once again be a US national team home. Until then, Crew fans will be as hard as the hats on their dearly departed logo.

    Meanwhile, there's Cincinnati – a conservative banking and engineering capital, whose Gilded Age heyday would be mourned if anyone here admitted it had ended. Oh, and it's also the coolest, happiest place in the soccer world right now.

    Yes, I know. But even if I weren't in the blast radius, I'd still love it. Major League Soccer has a glorious history of adding fans and communities with messiah complexes that would make Jim Jones take off his sunglasses and raise an eyebrow skeptically. The law of averages states that someday, MLS will add a team whose fans don't consider themselves God's gift to God, just as it's theoretically possible that those same fans won't treat the next set of new arrivals like a ship full of plague rats. But I'll be sad when that day happens.

    Meanwhile, Cincinnati and its soccer team right now have a self-esteem you could use to sharpen diamonds. FC Cincinnati, champions of nothing, playing in a college football stadium Amos Alonzo Stagg would consider quaint. And take it from me, it's wonderful. It really is. I'd be the first to tell you if it wasn't, but if you're within the catchment area of the Ohio Valley and you don't make the trippert to Nippert, you're missing out. I broke down and bought a season ticket, because it would honestly be stupid of me not to.

    But…they're not my boys.

    Maybe it's because I was in LA at the beginning of MLS, and feel like I'm a part of their story. And I like FC Cincinnati perfectly fine, I hope they do well. But they're not a part of me. They're a part of all the people here who made it a success, though, and the people here should be proud as hell. And I'll be cheering them on, too. Every game but one.
     
?

Dan, your ballot sucked. Here's who you should have picked instead:

  1. Thierry Henry

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Kevin Hartman

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. Jeff Cunningham

    4 vote(s)
    30.8%
  4. Aly Wagner

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  5. Brian Ching

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  6. Tony Sanneh

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Cat Reddick Whitehill

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  8. Steve Ralston

    5 vote(s)
    38.5%
  9. Pat Onstad

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Ben Olsen

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  11. Rachel Buehler Van Hollebeke

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  12. Clint Mathis

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  13. Pablo Mastroeni

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  14. Stephanie Lopez Cox

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Eddie Lewis

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  16. Amy LePeilbet

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  17. Josh Wolff

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  18. David Beckham

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  19. Eddie Johnson

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  20. Other (note in comments) (or not, you're not my monkey)

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.

Comments

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Dan Loney, Apr 5, 2019.

    1. RalleeMonkey

      RalleeMonkey Member+

      Aug 30, 2004
      here

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      I'm still not sure why you put the Angry Carrot in the middle of this article. But, I'm glad you did. File under so bad, it's good. I wish the Gals would bring it back.

      Also, there is almost no one I would vote for ahead of Cherundolo. The best US male field player ever. In 2002, playing RB, he torched LM James Milner so badly so repeatedly that Milner had to be subbed out at half. Shows what he was capable of. There are very few I'd vote in ahead of Boca. And, just a couple more i'd vote in ahead of Frankie.

      In short - WTF?
       
      Honore de Ballsac repped this.
    2. Paul Calixte

      Paul Calixte Moderator
      Staff Member

      Orlando City SC
      Apr 30, 2009
      Miami, FL
      Club:
      Orlando City SC
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Even with WCQ likely to expand in the near future and us likely no longer facing Mexico?
       
    3. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Nat'l Team:
      Philippines

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      I am convinced that whatever format CONCACAF uses, the US will face Mexico home and home. Even if it's just a quadrennial formality.
       
    4. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      I voted for Beckham. I also voted for Jeff Cunningham.
       
      Grumpy in LA repped this.
    5. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Burneko, who's paid to be a contrarian by a site that has to be to try and stand out:

      the absolute only criteria for inducting an athlete into their sport’s HOF should be “is there even one person on the face of the earth who would like to see that athlete in the HOF”

      That's the dumbest mother********ing take I have ever heard. And I have spent time in the pro/rel arguments here.
       
      mschofield and AndyMead repped this.
    6. mschofield

      mschofield Member+

      May 16, 2000
      Berlin
      Club:
      Union Berlin
      Nat'l Team:
      Germany

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      "It's not the US National Team Hall of Fame. It's the US Soccer Hall of Fame. "
      While this is true, I still believe your take is actually about a third, yet unnamed Hall. You are talking about the U.S. Hall of Really Good Soccer Players.
      By making a stand against Becks, you're clearly ignoring the Fame notion. Now, that could be the Fame of the individual, in which case, yeah, he's more in than anyone else in the history of the game in the US, or the people who raise the level of attention paid to the game in the US, in which case he ties with Mia and
      Brandi. but if the Hall has Fame in the name, Becks is most certainly in.
      The notion behind such Halls, I believe but may be wrong, is tricking people into giving them money to build, then visit.
      In general, I think money-paying people would be disappointed to find their paid ticket to a Hall was all Sawa, no Becks. I think they would feel particularly burned because they would be in the Frisco without the seals.
      The US Hall just needs to load up on people visitors might have heard of, Mia, Brandi's sport bra, Becks and Lando. Then they mix in a bit of Patentude, Gaetjens and a bunch of old guys from St. Louis and call it paying homage to yesteryear/ Oh, and they should have a pedestal waiting for Pulisic, which they can go ahead and label now I'd think.
       
      russ, Justin O and Dan Loney repped this.
    7. mschofield

      mschofield Member+

      May 16, 2000
      Berlin
      Club:
      Union Berlin
      Nat'l Team:
      Germany

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      It would have to be a really big Hall. Instead of the current 19k sqr feet, it would need to be infinity sized.
       
    8. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      There is a Mr. do Nascimento who would like a word with you.

      The museum and the honorees are different things.

      I am going to the Hall for the first time this June, but I believe it's true that there are no busts or plaques or holograms of inductees, just the names on a single pane of glass in one section. And, therefore...

      ...if seeing that name is what one's trip to the Hall was all about, there was no need to spend the money to build anything.
       
    9. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Nat'l Team:
      Philippines

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      In Oneonta, a hundred years ago, there was a wall with the photographs of the inductees next to a bio. If it is just their names, like an infinitely less emotional Vietnam Wall, I wonder what the heck you're supposed to learn about the inductees.

      The Hall of Fame is also about conferring fame - so and so's accomplishments deserve to be remembered, so here's a building with their name somewhere inside. Beckham's achievements on the field don't warrant putting him in as a player.

      I actually thought I'd be in the minority on Beckham, and that he'd get in with a high 90 percent vote. (Or, that the USSF would quietly rig the totals so they could have Beckham Day in Frisco.)

      Is it hypocritical of me to criticize the electorate mercilessly for ignoring Moreno, stalling Scurry and keeping Hamm from being unanimous, while at the same time using their stance on Beckham as validation? Yes. Yes, it is.
       
    10. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      To heck with Hamm, I lobbied to have the three people that didn't vote for Michelle Akers to lose their ballot access.

      I didn't vote for Sawa this year (ran out of spots), but I can get on board. I've long contended that if the NSHOF can't figure out how to get domestic league lifers without superlative USNT careers in on the Players Ballot (and not the Veterans Ballot) then MLS will eventually create its own Hall of Fame. Jaime Moreno and Steve Ralston are, for me, the poster children for players with long superlative MLS careers with pretty much no chance of getting into the NSHOF. I see that as a problem.

      The 2004-2008 gap in professional leagues hurts Sawa's case. Etcheverry had four of the greatest years in MLS history, yet I've never voted for him. Without the national team career, I expect a certain longevity and sustained excellence. McCall Zerboni is building that type of career on the women's side as we watch. But if she makes it to France and racks up a bunch of late career caps, she'll be more akin to Preki or Jeff Cunningham than Steve Ralston.
       
      Dan Loney repped this.
    11. mschofield

      mschofield Member+

      May 16, 2000
      Berlin
      Club:
      Union Berlin
      Nat'l Team:
      Germany

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Okay, I agree that tossing Pele in the hall was a good move, though Becks' rules apply. He wasn't even close to his best when he showed up with Cosmos, but he sure was the most famous, and therefore had the greatest impact, of a any soccer player in that era.
      Exactly., on the second point, there is no need for a Hall of Fame, not in US soccer, certainly, and not in any sport. They're put together as entertainment and commercial ventures. I will admit that the Olympic and FIFA museums in Lausanne have a couple cool little interactive games, but anyone who wants to study the history of the game would be better off sitting in front of their screen for an afternoon.
      The reality, in an online era, is that all the players that a HoF reminds us of are constantly available to study. Now, the Negro Leagues Museum in KCMO used to totally rock, but that's because you'd go there to take a look at the exhibits and end up having a long chat with Buck O'Neil and half a dozen other former players who used to hang out there.
       
      AndyMead repped this.
    12. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      I *could* be wrong about how inductees are honored, but I *thought* that is what I remember from an interview with Djorn last year.

      Here's the thing: location surely didn't help the former Hall, but museums are a tough, tough business financially. The new facility, I am told, is more experiential than sentimental. The idea is the people who are going to pay to attend need to have more of a reason than "let's go look at some old stuff."

      Obvs, Canton and Cooperstown and Toronto are museums of our most popular sports. (Been to Springfield, can't say it was either great or potentially profitable.) They CAN lure you with some old stuff because it's great stuff and their fan bases are huge.

      The NSHOF has gone more Dave & Busters than just plaque and jersey. I can't really take issue with that, given top few people seem to realize why we got into the predicament we got into in the first place.
       
      russ, Dan Loney and AndyMead repped this.
    13. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Pele's actual play in the NASL > Beckham's actual play in MLS

      Pele's long-term impact on American soccer > Beckham's long-term impact on American soccer

      Then they're misguided because most of them are shitty at it. The finances are rarely good.

      The intent is to honor the greats and sustain the history. You have to be able to keep the doors open to do that, obviously, but if a commercial venture was your intent (and it absolutely was not in 1936), you would just do an amusement park.
       
    14. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      And I have never been in favor of an MLS Hall of Fame, which would devalue both entities.
       
      AndyMead repped this.
    15. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      That's tough. If you're talking about percentages, then nobody can compete with going from 1 to 100 - when everyone after isn't starting at 1. Beckham wasn't going to take things from 50 to 5000. It's just not possible.

      If you're talking about absolute value, I'm not sure I agree. The bump Beckham gave us has been sustained - though that has less to do with Pele and Beckham, but it's still something. In a sense, Pele put soccer on the map. He helped create a generation that would eventually get things going. Beckham just helped move the timetable forward five or ten years.

      It's kind of an Oranges to Tangelos comparison, and with Inter-Miami, Beckhams long-term impact is still being worked on, though in NSHOF terms the newer developments would be in the Builder category and not the Player category.

      And I think we, or maybe Dan and I, have had that conversation in the past. I think Becks as a Builder is a no brainer. As a player it's more complicated. Pele's on field heroics were more heroic, though Beckham - for me - did end up with more of a Nolan Ryan thing and just keep going and eventually winning a bunch of MLS Cups (throwing more no-hitters in Ryan's case) to where most of the discussion became moot.

      In a sense, Beckham will be a test of whether or not it is possible at all to get into the NSHOF on the Player ballot without a significant USNT career.
       
      mschofield repped this.
    16. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Oh, I agree. I care greatly for the NSHOF. I want it to figure things out so that there's no temptation by MLS to do their own thing.
       
    17. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      It's been sustained for, what, seven years? Yay.

      Pele's impact is still felt today. And no NASL player had more assists over the brief period he was in the league. Had Beckham had one or two more actual big years, he might merit induction.


      I just can't see putting someone in who bought a franchise at a discount, futzed around for several years and still doesn't have an actual, you know, stadium solution. It's not like he's Clive Freaking Toye suddenly.

      Look at that out there on the ocean? It's the ship that has already sailed.

      If the electorate thought that way, they'd have done it by now.
       
    18. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Nat'l Team:
      United States

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      A) It would come off as petty and spiteful (as well as desperate and rinky-dink) and

      B) Good luck with THAT museum. Maybe there would be a physical space in Columbus by 2040.
       
    19. mschofield

      mschofield Member+

      May 16, 2000
      Berlin
      Club:
      Union Berlin
      Nat'l Team:
      Germany

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Pele's impact on football today in the US < Becks. Pele's importance to NASL = Becks to MLS. but that's only if we take his influence in a time vacuum.
      If we consider that five years after Pele retired from Cosmos, the league which his play had elevated was reeling, MLS' Becks move looks like the smarter piece of business, as the league he elevated is now thriving.
      What's more, we can trace both league fortunes to these moves. MLS is thriving to a great extent because it brought in Becks. NASL tanked in large part because of the overspending that was typified and justified with the Pele move. I know that's oversimplifying, but there is some truth in it. Maybe NASL just wasn't a league in a time in US sport in which it had any chance at long term success. This certainly wasn't Pele's fault. Still, by 1982, was there any sense that it had a future? We'd moved on to indoor, ffs.
      Also, while I know that as a Gals player Becks was absent quite often, fannying about with Milan or Paris or whatever, he did occassionally bring real quality to MLS. I remember well Lando's odd reaction to playing with him, not a quote but along the lines of "It's really fascinating, there's a point to every ball he plays." Which coming from the best US player of his generation just made me sad for how he'd been coached up. Becks was still working hard, delivering eye-popping crosses and some stunning free kicks (and that's all he ever really did). Far and away, the player with the most impact on the present success of MLS.
      Oh, and I didn't say it was a good commercial venture, but there is no other reason to open one of these things. Past players can just as easily be honored by their former clubs, with plaques at stadiums.
       
    20. mschofield

      mschofield Member+

      May 16, 2000
      Berlin
      Club:
      Union Berlin
      Nat'l Team:
      Germany

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      I know we're old and like to say things like this, but is this really true? The kids who would have grown up wanting to play like Pele, are of course well beyond their playing years. So, let's say they moved into coaching. They are now retired or retiring. Maybe they influenced the next generation, but when I was coaching high school kids in the 2000s, no one ever mentioned Pele anymore. Hell, to US kids Maradonna is a ball move.
      The story of Pele is a journey of discovery for young Americans today. There was a wonderful player named Pele (cool, can we youtube him, nice) and he played in the US (wow, cool.) for the Cosmos (what's that. let me check, cool) in NASL (repeat process)...
      He's a hero to our generation. He's a ghost to the more recent. this is the nature and beauty of sport. The lasting lessons of sport history, integration prime among them, though also smacking down Hitler, matter. But the very nature of the game is temporal. that's the beauty of the game. 90 minutes, anything can happen sort of thing, but also next week, there's another 90 minutes. Sport is about now and next week and next season and when things are really bad, about "remember when."
      But even the remember when side of things doesn't often stretch as far back as Pele's prime (and let's not pretend he was anywhere near that in NY, while Becks was a much lesser player, but was pretty damn close to peak Becks in LA).

      Also, on your first point: Why isn't seven years a "yay/" MLS right now has the feel of a league with legs, doesn't it?
       
    21. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      An older friend in the media posted an infographic that I think pulled current NBA players on who the GOAT was. (Source The Athletic)

      Jordan in a landslide with Kobe and LeBron just over 10%. Kareem, Magic, Iverson, and Durant around 1%

      Not listed: Wilt, Russell, Bird, and a host of other players from before today's players were born.

      I don't know if I disagree with Kenn on this, I just think it's a lot more complicated than he states. At least it is for me.
       
      mschofield repped this.
    22. mschofield

      mschofield Member+

      May 16, 2000
      Berlin
      Club:
      Union Berlin
      Nat'l Team:
      Germany

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      If I get into a discussion on the GOAT center of all time, I start with Wilt or Jabar. My Dad starts with Mikan. My son starts with Shaq.
      The reality, we're all correct.
       
      Dan Loney repped this.
    23. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Right. I didn't even think of Shaq. Personally, I opt for Otis "three certainties in life: death, taxes, and my jump shot" Birdsong. :D
       
      mschofield and Dan Loney repped this.
    24. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Nat'l Team:
      Philippines

      MLS/Soccer Hall of Fame - Feel It Still

      By Dan Loney on Apr 5, 2019 at 11:49 AM
      Your son misspelled "Hakeem," but this is a great point. So much of Halls of Fame are aimed at, well, nostalgic fans, followed in the distance by history-minded fans. It's part of the reason why some people still want Pete Rose in Cooperstown, instead of buried at sea.
       
      russ, mschofield and AndyMead repped this.

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