MLS Playoffs and the progressively non-existent home field advantage

You are incorrect on your tie breaking rules for the NFL.

Division records are not used when breaking a tie between teams from competing divisions. In your scenario if all 3 teams are competing for wildcard berths the records within the divisions would be thrown out. Assuming all 3 teams did not play each other, it would come down to record within the conference for both playoff spots and seeding.

Assuming Team A and B share a division and Team A beat Team C but Team B didn't play Team C.

Team A: 10-6/6-2 in division/10-2 in conference
Team B: 10-6/5-3 in division/8-4 in conference
Team C: 10-6/7-1 in division/7-5 in conference

Teams A and B make the playoffs if 2 spots are available. Team B is not eliminated based on division record.

But you did just prove a great point. The NFL despite having a tie-breaking system that millions don't understand still remains the biggest sports league in the history of the world.

All people really care about is "what needs to happen for my team to advance" and that is pretty simple to relay to the fans. Even with the NFL's convoluted tie breaking system it takes 2 seconds for a fan to figure out what needs to happen for their team to advance.

 

We don't have the benefit of being the World Cup, and the people I'm talking about don't watch the Confederations or Gold Cups.

It seems like a lot to give up for, from best I can tell, no real benefit

 

Do you have a source? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NFL_season#endnote_Steelersg agrees with me by saying:

"Pittsburgh did not qualify as a Wild Card based on the first tiebreaking step for three or more clubs which reads, "Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to Step 2."

That has a source from CBS Sports, but CBS Sports changes the contents of the site every season, so we can't tell what the page looked like back then.

 

In a 3 way tie where there are two teams from 1 division and one from another, they first apply the division tiebreaker and then the general tiebreaker.

In a tie between two teams from different divisions, division record isn't used.

 

Yes, but Pittsburgh was not eliminated because of the division tie-breaker until they were head to head with Baltimore for the 6th seed. 2 teams in the same division at that point so the tie-breaker was in play.
Had Pittsburgh and Baltimore both won tiebreakers over the Jets and Titans than both would have made the playoffs.
The reason the Jets and Ravens made the playoffs was because they were both 7-5 in conference play. Each tie breaking process only selects 1 team than it restarts.

From nfl.com, read all the way to the bottom. Yes Pittsburgh was eliminated because of the division tie-breaker but only because they lost the division tie-breaker to the Ravens and lost the conference tie-breaker to the Jets.

Had Pittsburgh been 7-5 and the Jets 6-6 in conference play, Pittsburgh would have gotten in.

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM
If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.
2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.

Two Clubs

1. Head-to-head, if applicable.
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Strength of victory.
5. Strength of schedule.
6. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
7. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
8. Best net points in conference games.
9. Best net points in all games.
10. Best net touchdowns in all games.
11. Coin toss.

Three or More Clubs
(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.
2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
5. Strength of victory.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
9. Best net points in conference games.
10. Best net points in all games.
11. Best net touchdowns in all games.
12. Coin toss

When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth.

 

I agree with this.

In the scenario I gave from Wikipedia, two of the tied teams made the playoffs. Sometimes tiebreakers could be used for the top wild card and then have three teams from different divisions still tied for the second wild card. However, if there is only one playoff spot available for the tied teams, two of them are in the same division, and one of those two lost both games against the other one, I believe the team that lost both games against another tied team in its division could not make the playoffs.
Even with the tiebreaker rules I think some scenarios are ambiguous and I don't know if either one of us will convince the other. For example, if the first wild card team does not need a tiebreaker, can the "first wild-card team" from the NFL's rules refer to the second wild card team?

 

No you are correct but that makes sense. You can't let the 3rd place team from a division in over the 2nd place team from a division.

Either way, the point remains. Despite confusing tie breaking scenarios the NFL is still the most popular sport in the world. MLS can have a group stage without causing people to stop watching.

 

Actually it is relevant because the argument is that MLS needs a simple playoff system to attract casual fans which the NFL proves is not true.

 

Fine but you are wrong that its simple "19 times out of 20"

The last few weeks of every season involve announcers explaining scenarios over and over again. Once the playoffs begin its simple but who gets in and where they are seeded is a convoluted mess on a yearly basis.

 

The NFL doesn't have draws. And the few it does, they get a half-win.

Y'know who makes the playoffs in the NFL? The Team with the most wins. Who makes the playoffs in MLS? The team with the most (Wins*3+Draws).

But even that isn't the big deal. In a 16 or 34 game season, it works itself out. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I'm pretty sure no one has ever made or not made the playoffs in the NFL based on the 4th Tiebreaker (whatever it is). In a 4 team tournament for the title, when each team only plays 3 games, that shit would happen on the reg.

 

Here's how my favorite NFL team, the Giants, missed the 1994 playoffs (the playoffs that were in January 1995):

The Giants were tied with Chicago, Green Bay, and Detroit at 9-7 for three wild card spots. At that time each conference had three divisions.

Tiebreaker 1: The Giants lost to Detroit head-to-head and did not play Chicago or Green Bay

Tiebreaker 2: The Giants were in a different division than the other three, so division record wasn't used

Tiebreaker 3: Green Bay had a better conference record than the Giants and Chicago, who had the same conference record. Green Bay was the first wild card based on winning the conference record tiebreaker with the Giants and the three-way head-to-head tiebreaker with Detroit and Chicago.

Tiebreaker 4: Chicago had a better record against common opponents than the Giants, who were eliminated.

I hope KCbus doesn't lock the topic. I was done debating with youngorst and then Achowat posted something I wanted to respond to.

 

Every molecule doesn't need to be illustrated only to the point that the actual point isn't deflected or not acknowledged.

 

And this is hardly a rare occurrence. Its gotten to the 5th and 6th tiebreaker on occasion.

Either way, a group tiebreaker would still be better than the aggregate away goal tiebreaker currently in use. Seriously simply use the World Cup tiebreakers and it'd hardly be a travesty (which the away goal tiebreaker is).