MLS Playoff Conference Semifinals

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by MassachusettsRef, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like there was no discussion on this, which is surprising. Leg 1 immediately below:

    Eastern Conference Semifinals First Leg

    Columbus Crew v New York Red Bulls
    MAPFRE Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Peter Manikowski
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: Mark Geiger
    AVAR: Kevin Klinger

    New York City FC v Atlanta United
    Yankee Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Western Conference Semifinals First Leg

    Portland Timbers v Seattle Sounders
    Providence Park (5:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Joe Fletcher
    AR2: Kathryn Nesbitt
    4TH: Drew Fischer
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR : Mike Rottersman

    Real Salt Lake v Sporting Kansas City
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Alan Kelly
    VAR: Dave Gantar
    AVAR: Adam Garner
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Leg 2 will be Marrufo in Seattle, Rivero in Kansas City, Geiger in Atlanta, and Kelly in New York. Full crews likely to be posted later today.
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


    I have no idea why Unkel doesn't give a penalty there on the challenge by the keeper on Roldan.

    Sure Roldan is playing and looking for the penalty there, but it's a foul.

    Also, how on earth is the restart a corner kick there?

    Second, I don't know what is more disappointing that David Villa didn't get sent off for that studs into the chest/side of the Atlanta player or the fact that he somehow didn't get a caution in the match.

    I'd just settle for a caution for the second challenge...

    I will be absolutely stunned if we get a red for SFP via VAR or no VAR in the playoffs.
     
  4. djmtxref

    djmtxref Member

    Apr 8, 2013
    It might have helped if Roldan was attempting to play the ball when (or if) he got tripped. You could make just as much of a case that Roldan kicked the keeper because he was late to the ball.
     
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  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean the interesting thing here is that one playoff referee--Chapman--has this as a clear penalty and another, Unkel, does not. We've had some potential SFP cards looked at and not given as red cards, but is this the first time we've had a non-handball potential penalty sent down and a referee say "no, not enough?"

    I'm actually fine with the no call. Roldan does go looking for it and drags the leg without trying to play the ball. Obviously this could be a penalty, but I don't think this is "clearly wrong" not to give.

    That part is interesting but goes down to the protocols, I think. If corner was the decision on the field, then it stays a corner.

    Watching it live, I actually said aloud "wow, that was bad" and totally felt like it was SFP. For one of the first times ever, I think I agree with the commentators on Instant Replay. By the book, it's SFP. But Stott called the match a certain way and this wasn't a red. Look how nobody reacts looking for it. A red was never coming. Now, the lack of yellow, that's an entirely different question...

    Agreed. It likely won't happen. The only way it does, in my opinion, is once a second leg is already decided.
     
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  6. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    For the goal for NYCFC that was called off for dangerous play, it also looked like the goal scorer may have been coming back from an offside position but it was very tight.
     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed.

    I was also surprised the first Portland goal wasn't ruled out for offside via VAR. Three to five inches, if easily discernible via video, starts to get into the "clearly wrong" territory. If it doesn't, what does? A foot? Fifteen inches? I guess it all came down to which cameras were available but I was pretty surprised with the result.
     
  8. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If easily discernable by video is the key. If this is the best angle, I don't see how you can recommend a review.

     
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  9. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the 44th minute, Steffen took a GK, and a Columbus player came back from offside across the center line. I'm not complaining about the call, but I think it's rare to have offside on the player after a GK. Who has seen that before?
     
  10. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm assuming there was another touch in between since you can't be offside directly from a goal kick, yeah?
     
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  11. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Perhaps would have been discernible in the super-cool tech they had in the WC, but they don't have that same super-tech in MLS stadia, do they? Discerning 3-5" in real time (by that I mean the reasonable time that VAR has to review as opposed to leisurely review of video) from imperfect angles is a pretty big ask.
     
  12. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They do not have any additional technology other than their own eyeballs from what I understand. PRO has released some images with lines, but those have all been added some time after the fact.

    Hawkeye is the company involved as you would probably expect so we know that THEY have the resources, but who knows what resources PRO and MLS actually have. The money exists, I would think (hope?).
     
  13. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Non-neutral here, but I thought Unkel called a near-perfect game. A playoff, rivalry game, that stayed completely under control with only 1 YC? Impressive set of refereeing. Not saying Marrufo has an easy job, but Geiger definitely has the more difficult second leg to steer home.
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Full assignments for leg 2:

    11/08/2018

    Western Conference Semifinal Second Leg

    Seattle Sounders v Portland Timbers
    CenturyLink Field (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Robert Sibiga
    VAR: Christopher Penso
    AVAR: Michael Kampmeinert

    11/11/2018

    Western Conference Semifinal Second Leg

    Sporting Kansas City v Real Salt Lake
    Children’s Mercy Park (3PM ET)
    REF: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Christopher Penso
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Brian Dunn

    Eastern Conference Semifinals Second Leg

    Atlanta United v New York City
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (5:30PM ET)
    REF: Mark Geiger
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Corey Rockwell
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: Dave Gantar
    AVAR: Kyle Longville

    New York Red Bulls v Columbus Crew
    Red Bull Arena (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Logan Brown
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Penso being on both Western Conference games would lead me to believe he'll have a whistle for the first leg of the Western Conference final, but that type of planned assigning might be too practical to be true.

    Fischer's absence is intriguing. I would think he also is in line for a conference final, but maybe not.
     
  16. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fischer isn't full time from what I've been told.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is that a possible explanation for his lack of use thus far, or a suggestion he won't get anything because of it? Because he did have a playoff whistle last year.
     
  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the reason I was given to remove him from the possibilities for the final. Not sure about the rest of the playoffs or his status last season.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gotcha.

    Yeah, I never really had him in mind for the Final. I thought Penso made sense after the knockout stage, but without a match so far it seems like he's on track for a Conference Final.

    Presuming Geiger and Marrufo are out for the Final (I would guess Marrufo works a Conference Final with Geiger as VAR), I think it really could be a battle between two veterans for MLS Cup: Toledo and Stott. Sibiga seemed in the mix from the start of the playoffs, but I'm not sure if he's still in the mix after the match in NYC.

    If I were guessing, I'd say:

    Conference Finals
    Penso
    Marrufo
    Fischer
    Villarreal or Kelly

    Final
    Toledo or Stott

    Elfath's potential return and Sibiga's status are the two big wildcards in my opinion.

    Of course, I am likely wildly wrong.
     
  20. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    If only referees who are full-time in PRO are eligible to do the Final, then how would Stott be eligible?

    I've never heard of that or knew that before, but it makes total sense in a way.

    Isn't he classified as an independent contractor within PRO? Just receives game fees and doesn't have to attend the bimonthly meetings and training?

    From my understanding, Stott was basically grandfathered into PRO under independent contractor status because he was so good and experienced.

    Or has his status changed?
     
  21. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just realized that's the same combo that gave the Sounders send off via VAR (Marshall?) that the red card appeal group overturned, and Gantar/Baldo went to the press with. To keep them together in the playoffs is great. I don't know who the PRO rep is on the red card panel, but this just makes me think he is not in communication with PRO, and they basically don't care what he does. I mean, such a high profile decision, and for PRO to keep them together on a playoff assignment, I mean that says something to those that are paying attention. They didn't put them in Seattle, but still.
     
  22. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Penso did the All Star game, right? Has it ever happened that ref had the Final?
     
  23. jdmahoney

    jdmahoney Member

    Feb 28, 2017
    Plymouth, MN
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nope, Sibiga had the All Star Game.
     
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  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's happened like the last 5 years. Every referee that has done the All-Star game recently has done the MLS Cup Final in the same season.

    Last year Chapman did both. Then year before it was Kelly. Year before him it was Marrufo.
     
  25. Lucky Wilbury

    Lucky Wilbury Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    United States
    This is false, and easily google-able.
    Year - ASG, MLS Cup
    2012 - Toledo, Petrescu
    2013 - Grajeda, Grajeda
    2014 - Marrufo, Geiger
    2015 - Elfath, Marrufo
    2016 - Penso, Kelly
    2017 - Chapman, Chapman
    2018 - Sibiga, TBD
     
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