I think it's applicable in plenty of cases still. Some people still value sample in Scotland or the Nordic countries more than MLS, which is an old-fashioned and prejudicial viewpoint.
Lol! Getting a Yanks Abroad thread =/= "some people acted like that actually meant something". Kitchen was always a reliable, unathletic CDM at a bad DCU team. Him moving to Hearts wasn't much of anything.
It's amazing how many buy that crap... Portland fans were furious that MLS wouldn't let them sign Mix Diskerud as a DP... later he turned out to be a joke at NYCFC for far less money, whereas the Timbers had to settle for Diego Valeri who will one day have a statue outside Providence Park. Remember all the hype around Josh Gatt? Yeah he had injury issues but it's not like one of those was a stroke that crippled his soccer brain... clearly Shea Salinas should have moved to Norway so he'd have Eurodouchebags splooging themselves over his grainy highlight videos.
Serious question, Duke: Who are the frequent USMNT posters who think that the SPL / Scandinavian leagues are better than MLS? I cannot think of any off the top of my head. Seems to me that Celtic itself is a better team than any in MLS but it will play the majority of its games vs. low end MLS / high end USL teams. It will provide a few opportunities to play against higher level teams through CL matches though but that's maybe 4-6 games/year. That's not that many.
The Celtic payroll exceeds all MLS payrolls. Only Toronto is close. On the other hand, the second highest is Rangers with less than half of Celtic, and competetive with most MLS salaries. The rest of the league is well below MLS averages.
I would say the only reason to play in the SPL or Scandinavian leagues is because the pathway to better Euro leagues is better than from MLS. If Adams kicks booty that may change and going directly from MLS to at least the Bundesliga may be possible. Probably doesn't hurt having McKennie rise so fast from a MLS academy also.
Our former manager, for one. What prompted this discussion was Perry Kitchen's travels to Scotland. After being out in the veritable wilderness whilst in MLS he managed to be named to the Copa America final roster when playing for Hearts. Mix was a favorite when at Rosenborg. Gatt was an heir apparent. These days a sect of fans gush about Emmanuel Sabbi, who has scored 5 goals for the worst club in Denmark. Cap him now are the cries. It took even less of a sample of relative success to want to jump the gun on Amon and Gall, the latter of which didn't get off the bench in MLS (ftr I'm not dooming either to USNT obscurity present or future, just pointing out the eagerness was apparent). Not in the Nordic countries, but look how little it took for calls for Brendan Hines-Ike to be capped now playing for a random Belgian team. He's respectable but nothing special from what I've seen and was taken 55th in the MLS collegiate draft. Comparatively in MLS for this same sect of fans there is pretty much no level of excellence that can ingratiate you to them. Unless they're still teens, they're just discarded by virtue of being in MLS as "try-hards". Whatever the f**k that means. Pulisic has had a pretty good career in Europe so far with that being his best attribute. When it comes to January camp, some want to just discard it, even though it's a bonus sample. They have that much of an aversion to observing a group of MLS players. In the interim try to find a way for it to be populated with as many Nordic players or European reservists as possible. An army of mini Klinsmanns. That's why they worshiped him so much beyond rationale.
Right now I support most young domestics going that route outside those in the catchment area of a few clubs like New York Red Bulls (NYCFC has really gummed up the works). It's been a confluence of factors leading to the downfall of most American prospects in MLS. That said, yes, people shouldn't get that reality confused with success for Americans in those leagues being as impressive as success in MLS. Those leagues are more stepping stones not gemstones when it comes to a USNT opportunities. MLS is the baseline. Of course there are a number of leagues where it should require less achievement.
The only thing about those leagues is that it seems that there is more upward mobility from them. Seems like a player is more likely to get noticed and bought from one of them. Don't ask me for examples, although, Bedoya. I don't think Ale makes Ligue 1 playing in MLS.
Agreed, so all the reason to be more reluctant using caps on players from those leagues as opposed to MLS. In MLS their mobility on average is poor meaning so many have realistically maxed out their level without national team call-ups as an aid. Whereas from those slightly inferior leagues, if they want to reach a superior level to make it clear they're national team caliber, what's required of them is rather straight-forward. The caveat sometimes playing in the favor of European-based player is dual national status. But not a big fan of making decisions out of fear. That's going to lead to worse outcomes/lower upside over time.
Thanks for the response. I'm going to ignore all the JK stuff unless you want to engage in a separate thread for that (and I started one for just that purpose!) Inviting young Nordic players to an early-cycle Camp Cupcake doesn't seem to me to be saying much about their quality vs. MLS. Look at whom we're bringing to CC from MLS, it's pretty clear we're taking a pretty broad view of who can be useful (which again is fine) - the aforementioned Nordic players seem to fit within the broad CC talent range. Personally, I don't think that many CC players will have a lot of impact on our team so looking at the fringe doesn't really bother me and I simply don't see a lot of posters crying for meaningful minutes for Sabbi, Gatt or Hines. In fact, I see very little mention of them. I'd be interested to see if anyone has them in our "current top XI" or other roster discussions. I do see a lot of mention about prospect playing for the largest squads but have yet to break through but that's a different conversation. FWIW, I personally put Gall in a different perspective in that he plays for one of the best teams in a league where the other teams are similar to SPL (~low MLS / high USL). Malmo is close to Celtic IMO and better than MLS. He's also doing well there as a 23 yr old late bloomer in a position of dire need. Amon is young so he's in a different class as well.
This is one of those arguments that sounds better than it probably is. Professional scouts are similar to professionals of any other occupation. They use all tools at their disposal even if some are less reliable than others. I wouldn't expect them to rely on video to make decisions, but I would expect them to make heavy use of it when determining who to watch live. The trip from say, Paris to Glasgow might be shorter than Paris to NYC, but is it that much cheaper? You might be right, but on the surface, it seems to slight the professional desire to succeed.
I don't think it's a noticing thing but rather than MLS has, until recently, put a transfer premium on young american players that clubs, who are up the food chain but not major leagues level, were willing to pay as MLS viewed itself as a destination league rather than a developmental one. Hopefully, that is changing as Garber's recent comment seem to indicate.
I was the primary offender. He was doing better than halfway decent. He was the captain and beloved by fans. And, Hearts was a good team by SPL standards. New manager, things went south and PK came back to an MLS that's very different from the one he left. MLS upgraded a lot between his 2015 departure and 2018 return. The flipside of the Kitchen argument is Bjorn Maars Johnsen. He was on that Hearts team and you could see he has talent. That was at a low point for us forward-wise. People were touting Sydney Leroux's husband. Would not have hurt to give him a look, but no "SPL sucks!" He went for Norway, scored for them against Iceland and Slovenia in 2018. Has 4 goals for AZ this season - not a ton, but ...... people are projecting Nova for the Gold Cup roster. Anyway, this is a discussion for four years ago. MLS has significantly upgraded its talent base (to the detriment of young American players) in the last 4 years. It's way better than 2015. I was listening to the BBC this a.m. They were saying that Newcastle fans were stressing that they might not be able to sign Almiron. But, they noted "it's a done deal - Atlanta United has already signed his replacement, the best young player in (Central America, South America? I don't know where the kid is from)" So, ya, when Newcastle fans are salivating over an MLS player and Beeb pundits are saying the next great one has been signed, things have changed since PK left for Scotia.
The components that you miss are a) the scouts are more likely to be familiar with the level of competition in a Euro league; b) MLS tends to over-value rising American players. Rising American players probably sell more tickets in MLS than they do in a Euro league.
Agree until your last para. Especially with the LON, I'm in favor of cap-tie-ing promising duelly's early. Mex did it with JonGon. Given the forward pool, I'd love to have Bjorn Maars Johnsen in the mix. He's no superstar, but he's better forward depth than the present forward depth.
I made calls on both those players at the time. They were individual based on talent not fear, and especially in the case of Gonzalez it would have been appropriate. He was one of the better players for the best team in LigaMX, the Portugal camp was experimental, and actually all it would have required was communication on why he wasn't invited. With Bjorn I factored in his special situation of why he ended up in lower leagues, and there was like a year and a half to cap him before he was jettisoned. But a sizable % of the pool (1/3 maybe nearly half?) has citizenship elsewhere. So if you're going around capping guys left and right because you don't want to risk permanently losing anybody who has a pulse you're going to end up regretting it in the end with a weak roster. It's a loss leader to risk occasionally losing a player who might also be someone in the future worth regretting.
I think it's quite foolish to group "Scandinavian leagues" and "the SPL" together. They are all leagues where the top-end teams are top-end MLS equivalent or slightly better, and the rest of the teams are lower-MLS-tier or USL quality. But that's sort of where the similarities end. If you go to Norway or Sweden, you're likely to end up in the Eredivisie or Belgium. See, for example, Horvath. Bedoya ended up in Ligue 1. Meanwhile, the Danish Superliga feeds multiple players every year into La Liga and Serie A, despite being a rather small 14-team league. The SPL, particularly after the decline of Rangers, has fallen behind the English Championship in terms of quality, and in particular, have fallen behind both the C'Ship and MLS in terms of wages. Celtic is a visible club that is scouted heavily, but outside of that, I'm not sure that Kilmarnock FC and the like are going to draw much interest from even Championship sides. So, outside of Celtic, it's a toe-hold in Europe, not a "development league" like the Eredivisie, Belgium, and Denmark.
Well, this is a common internet debating technique .... over state what the other guy said, in order to shoot it down. I said I'd use LON to cap-tie duellies. That doesn't mean "going around capping guys left and right because you don't want to risk permanently losing anybody who has a pulse" It does mean guys that show real promise, like Gonzo and Johnsen. Ya, I'd put my thumb on the scale of bringing in a duelly for a camp, and for a last roster spot if they showed anything at the camp. Then, if the game is settled, get them in, and lock them in. Having one guy like that on LON rosters (if there is one that is at that point of development) is not "anyone who has a pulse." But ..... Nice Try! Edit: Let's say when Bello is 17 Nigeria comes knocking on his door. I'm saying, if his trajectory has continued as is, get that kid into a camp. Also, I think you're way low in your estimate of the % of the pool that are duellies. As I understand it, you need a grandparent that was a citizen of a country to play for that country. 1/2 of U.S. citizens have a grandparent that is/was a citizen of another country. And, I bet the soccer player pool skews heavily to that 1/2. I'm guessing a huge portion of our player pool is duel/triple eligible.
Source: Matt Polster still undecided between Rangers and Chicago Fire. Signings pointing to Matt wanting Rangers move but concerns around playing time are there.— MLS Transfers (@MLSTransfers) January 9, 2019 Source: Wil Trapp in tough spot as clubs from Netherlands and Belgium are interested but can’t afford high transfer fee and/or his salary request. Dutch club Heerenveen are one of those clubs.— MLS Transfers (@MLSTransfers) January 9, 2019
Well I never opposed selective rule-breaking either unlike you implied, to wit the two players you mentioned I always advocated making a spot for. Unless we agree in practice while our rhetoric is drastically different, it seems you do support a more aggressive approach to cap-tying. Left and right with a pulse - it's colorful phrasing. I do think with what I perceive you to be suggesting there would be plenty of waste. We've seen that in the past, i.e.: when Sampson managed. Especially if your estimation on the % of the pool that are dual nats is more accurate. That works against the argument. But I think most countries require > 2 steps down in lineage. Still a lot of guys, and then it's going to be a disadvantage for others being more Americanized, which is also an impediment for playing in Europe in the 1st place.
I'm not following some of what you've posted. That's my problem. But, to put it in practical terms - what if Bello's playing time increases in 2019/20 and it looks like Nigeria might call him in. Do you call Bellow into a USMNT camp? I do. Regarding Sampson - who are you talking about? Wegerle was a helpful addition. Dooley was super helpful. Regis was it's own disaster but that was more about Harkes and his idiot compadres than Regis - Arena brought Regis to 2002, fwiw. If you're talking about Wagner and Mason, I think they were worth a try (although, iirc, their 1st appearances were in a qualifier. If that's the case, yes, that's an overreach). Anyway, all of those players were foreign developed. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying go after any foreign raised player that is U.S. eligible. I'm saying guys that are U.S. developed, who are dual eligible, and look like they will come good, cap tie them sooner rather than later. Like Bello. You never replied about him.
If he wants to play for Nigeria then pls do so. I would love to see more American players opting for their "second" country. Good luck to Mars Bjornsen in Norway. He was a good player. I saw him with Hearts and he was a good combining forward - much better than Bobby Wood. I think his assists will show that. Heck, I wanted to see Weah play for Jamaica. I always thought MIx would be better off in Norway but he wasn't good enough so the suckers on these boards forced him on us. Ditto for A.Johanssen who missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity to play in WC because he went with USA. I don't want to see Bello end up like that.
This is crackers. The most crackers thing about it is your take on Johanssen. If he wanted to play in the WC, he made exactly the *right* decision. He played for us in a year Iceland did not qualify. Then, in the cycle where Iceland had qualified and we didn't how many matches did he play in the 18 months before the WC? You think Iceland needed a guy who'd played about 6 competitive matches in the prior 18 months? Please. You are exactly wrong on Johansson. You wish Weah had played for Jamaica. That says it all. That's signature line worthy.