MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    My guess is he doesnt play in MLS or one of the top 5 leagues.
     
  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    what games has Miazga played poorly? Long has quite a few and doesnt have the skill to play out of the back like Berhalter wants. It looks like we have another MLS fan who just makes things up about players in MLS. He was horrid at Nantes? What do you base that on? I watched most of games and he looked like he belonged. They hired a new coach, he had a rough game, and no longer in the coaches plans. Here are some clips of his "horrid" play. Can you provide anything comparable Long in the same league Miazga dominated years ago?



    Weird that Berhalter level the field to make the talent level much closer than it needed to be and you would make this silly argument. More talented teams lose all the time.
     
  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Rumor has it that Ledesma may be getting his first minutes with PSV.

    I understand the argument that u-xx players may not deserve a USMNT spot over MLS/B2/championship players but if a prospect starts earning deserved time at a major club like PSV, how quickly should he be integrated?

    for me, one has to consider whether it’s a Wright @ Schalke situation (where it wasn’t really earned but due to massive injury) and who the competition is. I’m less inclined to put Richards in at CB quickly but at most other positions, we’re calling in non-descript MLS players with low ceilings. I’d be aggressive and error early.
     
  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    The culture around MLS is soft all the way around. Those that support the league are so insecure and constantly looking for validation. The truth is that quality of play is well below what is advertised.

    This is so embarassing watching McBride go full Don Garber.

     
  5. Is there a reference you guys can use to take a snapshot of where the mls sits right now compared to when this thread started a couple of years ago?
    In other words how do you compare the mls over time with itself.
     
  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Yeah, seemed very uncharacteristic of him.
     
  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I think MLS is better than it was. But I think relative to the EPL it has lost ground. But that could be true of every league relative to the EPL. It is just the incredible money in the EPL gets distributed throughout Europe, so it raises Germany, Holland, France, Italy and Spain with it. It also raises the Championship.

    Look at Americans like Hyndman and Parks, they transfer from EPL and UCL reserve teams and become starters in MLS on two of the best teams. Rooney is one of the best players in MLS and transfers to the Championship. Vela comes from a mid-table Spanish team and dominates the league. Sims is another EPL reserve squad player that came to MLS and became one of the better players on one of the better teams.

    Adams is an outlier in all things. Almiron has been so-so for a bottom table EPL team after dominating MLS.

    It used to be that the better MLS players could catch on at mid- to bottom EPL teams. Now, it seems that is no longer the case. Dempsey to Fulham and Cameron to Stoke just isn't happening. Yedlin went to a mid-table Tottenham and couldn't stick and went down to a relegation side to get minutes.

    MLS to Germany transfers have no happened much. Davies went from All-Star to reserve player. In fact, transfers out of MLS don't happen much.

    So, looking at where guys transfer to, keeping in mind the crazy top to bottom MLS roster structure, it seems that while MLS is better than 10 years ago, it has lost ground. Whereas a good/great MLS player could start for a mid-table EPL team 10 years ago, that type of player is now equivalent to a Championship player. The very best MLS players can slot in as a starter on teams in the relegation zone.
     
  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think this is a bit harsh but highlights that MLS is roughly Championship to B2 level. Excellence at this level isn’t comparable to even mediocre play in the major leagues.

    However, I think there are more Adams out there just as there are AAA and college football/basketball players who breakthrough as rookies in their respective major leagues. It’s high uncommon though.
     
  9. That doesnot sound promising to get at a real quality level.
    In another thread a poster or three tell me that the mls will be one of the dominating leagues in the world, because of market and because of the copy pasting of the US top 4 sports league structure.
    I'm of the opinion that isnot going to happen, as mls operates in a global sport, while the top four are operating in a local, closed environment, with all other leagues world wide compare to them as our Dutch amateur league to the epl.
     
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  10. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Isn't it simply that MLS values players a lot more even if the talent doesn't reflect that while many PL clubs (even relegation fodder ones) want the cream of the crop even if that is too good for their squads or even if they can not afford.
     
  11. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I agree. It ignores the motivation of the top players to play in the Champions League. Unless, somehow, MLS teams can get into the UCL, it will always be second fiddle. It will get the best players early and past prime at best. Further, the parity structure doesn't allow for super clubs to emerge and actually compete globally. If Ajax was hamstrung to be equal with VVV; they wouldn't be able to compete in the UCL and the whole league would diminish.

    MLS has always been marketed to non-soccer fans in this country. Then everyone wonders why ratings drop against NFL and college football games. Only recently they marketed to LigaMX fans. That is where they should strive; to be the best N. American league then the best W. Hemisphere league. They will never be near the top UEFA coefficient leagues.
     
  12. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Assuming the world remains as it is (and it never does), your last statement holds true. However, it should be noted that the Champions League as the end-all, be-all in world football is a recent development. Back when FSW first went on-air in the United States the Champions League was still something of an interesting sideshow of lesser importance to English fans than the Premier League and the FA Cup.

    My point is simply that the landscape changes. However, if there's something in the Western Hemisphere that will eventually challenge it, it's certainly not on the horizon at this time.
     
  13. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I would look at it this way: even the smallest EPL team has more money from their TV contract than some of the biggest clubs in the rest of the world. There is no reason to develop young players anymore, since you can buy anyone you need. Look at Zaha, it is simply Crystal Palace's ability to overpay him to stay that has kept him from moving.

    The only thing keeping all the good players from moving is the UCL. If you want to play in the CL, you still pick Dortmund, Inter, Marseille, Athletico over West Ham.
     
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  14. Yup, in the end if the money is about equal top players go for the challenge for the silverware. They all realize in the end nobody gets wowed by the size of your bank account but is by the number of cups and titles you have on your wiki page.
    Nobody gets into the Hall's of Fame based on your bank account, but by the impact you had on the pitch with titles and silverware.
     
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  15. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I think most MLS fans are more realistic.

    Team wages run from $24M to $8M. Even assuming that American players are underpayed, it's still a pretty low level. English payers are probably overpaid, but the average level of wages at Cardiff (at the bottom) are $1.3M. German wages are lower but even Nurnberg has an average of $400k.

    I'm not sure how many players go into the average, but the number 11th player for the Galaxy makes $218k. The average is higher because the distribution is so skewed but that skewness hurts performance too.

    If MLS salaries doubled, that would make them competitive with the low end of the bundesliga. It's a long ways to get there.
     
  16. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since MLS salaries are so all-over-the-place, it would be nice if anyone could find the median salaries for the various European leagues, since that info is available for MLS and would present a better comparison--in terms of salaries only, mind you. It's unfair to take the average from one place and not accept it from the other. What's the highest and lowest salary on Nurnberg? Last I knew, there are 28 senior roster spots per team in MLS (and not all teams occupy all 28 roster spots). Though, they may have reduced that to 24 for some odd reason? Not sure where it stands at the moment.
     
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  17. For the Eredivisie it's simple to find as it is used to calculate the minimum wage for non EU players by multiplying it with 1.5.
    It is now 290,000 €.
     
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  18. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I can't access the Nurnberg page for some reason, but here's the page for Dusseldorf, a bottom half team. I have no idea about the quality of data, and how they handle the zeros.

    https://www.capology.com/club/dusseldorf/salaries/


    The number 11 player is about 500k euros. But you can see how much flatter the distribution is, which I think makes for better team play, if not better marketing appeal.
     
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  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think those posters sound crazy. How is the league going to achieve that? They arent producing quality american players who will sign with them so they would have to change rules about the numbers required and seriously increase salaries. I saw a link the other day that showed less than 10 teams make a profit... that makes it hard to see them increasing salaries across the board.

    Even if they did that, I dont see interest increasing significantly. Most people who I know who played at a half way decent level in the states and consider themselves soccer dont have interest in the league or have been completely turned off by it.
     
  20. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Several clubs are definitely producing quality players these days. A significant number of them choose to sign outside the league instead of with the club that developed them, and the league is just now trying to make changes to keep them. I expect more changes with the upcoming CBA to further facilitate keeping those players.
    It is widely known that MLS hides profitability via SUM--it always looks like the teams are in the red because most of the profitable aspects are run through SUM, but the money is definitely there. Hence $200M (and soon to be $300M, reportedly) expansion fees (compared to $40M that Montreal paid just 7 years ago).
    The league has always and will continue to hide profitability to try to keep salaries low for the bulk of their (domestic) players during CBA negotiations.
    I don't know when exactly the posters that say MLS will be one of the top leagues think it will get there, but I will say that the growth in the league in every metric over the last 10 years has been significant. Maybe in another 5 years we'll start to see bundles of very good academy players come into the league and "replace" the ho-hum college guys that had historically taken up the bulk of the roster slots. We are already starting to see some of that happen. If that happens en masse (and I'd say it's a good bet that it does), then that will really help bring up the floor of the league in general.
     
  21. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    It would be interesting to have something like that. I have watched MLS from the beginning and I know that it has improved greatly over the years but I couldn't give much of an assessment beyond that simplistic and completely subjective analysis. It would be nice if we had some way to compare 5yr points along the way. Unfortunately, I can't really imagine something that would fit the bill.
     
  22. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Thanks for the link.
    I took McBride's reaction to be a bit over the top because he was/is taking Ibra far too seriously. The others on the show were absolutely correct and mentions of his past comments after leaving other leagues and teams were also telling.

    I have said it before and I will say it again. Lalas and Ibra are two peas in a pod. Both say things for effect, without regard for fact. If it is also factual....great but it is not a requirement. The differences are there, of course. Ibra is all about Ibra...nothing more, nothing less. Lalas's agenda varies with his position...when he was gm of LAG, the Galaxy were a super club etc. Lalas, of course was nowhere near the player Ibra was and is a nobody when it comes to world soccer (as a result, his comments are not followed globally) but what comes out of the mouth for each has to be taken in largely the same way.
     
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  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    No, there arent multiple teams that have produced quality players. The only player developed by the league is Tyler Adams. It isnt surprising that he is a physical specimen. I think you are confusing a quality player and a prospect. Sure there have been some prospects that have gone abroad and developed into quality players. There have been many prospects that have signed with MLS and not taken the step to the level needed.

    SUM? Really? MLS is profitable because the federation is indirectly funding them through a marketing arm. It is disgusting!

    You have much more faith in those academies than I do. It also isnt the academies. It is what the full teams do with them. The track record is horrible.
     
  24. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Will be interesting to see what Miami and Beckham bring to the table. He single-handedly changed MLS when he signed as a player. Can he do it with his team also? If he is able to sign a few players even better than what Atlanta and LAFC have done then that pushes the envelope again. It's also hard to say how the league will do but the way they are trending and are at #2 for under 30 Americans could lead to MLS passing the NHL in say ten years. That would lead to a colossal improvement for them in how the league is thought of. The big three would still be a long way off but I could see MLS being a top ten league worldwide if that happens. There's also the Brexit thing in the future and whether it will affect the economies of Europe and Great Britain. MLS could gain ground by just slowly improving if other countries start really struggling over that.
     
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  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Comparing MLS and European First Divisions:

    Reto Ziegler (FC Dallas, Swiss): “They would fight with Young Boys and Basel for the Championship, for sure. It’s not easy to play here. If you come here thinking you’re going on a vacation, you’re making a big mistake. You have to deserve your spot, week in, week out."

    Anton Tinnerholm (NYCFC, Sweden):
    “This is a step up from the Swedish league. The best teams here are better than the best teams in Sweden. It’s hard to compare but there are some players in this league who are so much better than the best players in Sweden. In Sweden, you don’t have players like Maxi Morales, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Carlos Vela, Josef Martinez. We have bigger stars here. The gap between the best players and the players 17th, 18th [in the squad] is bigger here than back home in Sweden.”

    From Atlanta to Zlatan: foreign players on the lure of MLS
    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...of-mls?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
     
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