MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd never use something like that as gospel. They may not be completely accurate and really miss thing like you describe, but they look to be generally accurate on the top 20 rankings. The numbers seemed good enough for the point I was trying to make... The top two teams in Spain, top team in Germany, top two or so in Italy and top four in England all pay a ton and make the majority of CL finalists. Also, they were also the easiest for me to find.
     
  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd be interested in seeing something similar for Europa League, but not enough to do the actual research. I'd guess that when they drop down a level, there is less dominance and more lesser teams go further.
     
  3. You're right they can be used for general group ranking, but still because of the deficiencies clubs could be spots too low or too high in relation to the clubs in their economic group. So for bundling a number of clubs it's okay, but the mutual ranking itself of them is not reliable I think.
     
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  4. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The logistics on this are a nightmare. Having said that, I remember when DC United got in the Copa Sudamerica back in mid-00s and played Católica. Man, we HAD them. And blew it in the 2nd half of the 2nd leg in Chile. But honestly, it was so much fun playing a meaningful game against a team outside of Mexico and Costa Rica. Again though, the logistics are HORRENDOUS.
     
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  5. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    NY Times tells NBA fans to forget All Star game and watch Italian b-ball instead.
    Take note, Garber, and media acolytes who want an East West All star game in MLS.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/16/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    The Italian basketball league used to have its own all-star game, but there wasn’t enough sustained interest from players or fans, so it ended in 2016. A dunk contest was similarly discontinued. Giorgio Gandolfi, a former basketball journalist who now runs his own international sports agency and who has been to 13 N.B.A. All-Star Games, said that winning the Coppa Italia is second in prestige only to winning the league championship at the end of the season. He doesn’t miss Italy’s all-star games. “They were just kind of boring,” he said.
     
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  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    They also seem to be for promotion/relegation...

    Take the case of the New York Knicks, who currently hold the worst record in the N.B.A. There is nothing much left for the Knicks to play for or their fans to watch this season.

    By contrast, Italian basketball teams near the bottom of the league run the risk of relegation to the second division, which is a bad result for everyone. That’s why the fight near the end of the season can be just as fierce at the bottom as it is as the top.

    If the Knicks had to worry about being consigned to the minor leagues, the folks at Madison Square Garden might think differently about how to handle the final months of the season. If the Knicks were demoted to play against the Maine Red Claws, New York fans would probably have some choice words and creative hand gestures for their team’s poor management. Italian basketball fans would have some advice on how to do that better, too.
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Interesting article on Gloster. A few things stood out to me (in reverse order). 1) yet another american moves abroad and clearly states it is a higher level. 2) NYRB are so far ahead of other MLS clubs in terms of developing young talent and giving them chances. 3) All those people who focus on league comparisons will struggle greatly with Ramos claiming Gloster would be a starter in MLS. Those comparisons have nothing to do with judging talent.

    Tall, fast, tough defensively, skilled offensively, and some swagger thrown in for good measure.

    "I can’t believe how far he’s come along in the last year and a half," U.S. Under-20 coach Tab Ramos told Goal when asked about Gloster. "In the U-17 World Cup he was good, but now I think Gloster would be a starter in MLS, I think for almost any team, as a left back."

    "It was really tough because before I started realizing I wanted to play in Europe they were giving me a lot of opportunities to train with the first team and with the USL," Gloster told Goal. "I even made my USL debut, played 85 minutes, and it was tough for me and my family because that club formed me into the player I am now.

    "Germany is a totally different style of play. It’s more physical, harder, more demanding, and I think that’s where I get my confidence from. Confidence is key and being in Germany, and playing with older guys, that has given me a lot of confidence."


    https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/who...ender-who-could-be/1a0s7l5xcjq8z1inxo0qgyn5ki
     
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  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I saw this and at least one other response, so figured I would move this topic here,

    You are still talking around his main message. This is the deflecting technique that is used around here all the time. The responses have been on "the ridiculopus takeaway" and attacks on Friedel's coaching ability or motivation. None of it matters. I find it weird that fans of the sport are told over and over about problems with the game in this country and instead demanding those things change, they ignore the issue and attack the messenger.
     
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  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I can always count on you for some good material!!!

    There was no picking, the quote was bouncing around twitter. You dont think players know what it takes to be succesful? You think only "good" coaches know? I am of the opinion that you listen to everyone with experience in the game.

    Listening to Tata makes a lot of sense given his experience, but I am having a hard time thinking he believes what he is saying. It doesnt jive with anything I have ever read from american players who have played in MLS and abroad. The parts you bolded are quite strange. It sound as crazy as Berhalter saying "we play at a high level because our league has the 6th highest viewership".

    The pitch for parity is odd. It is an argument about quality and not competitiveness. Yeah the top 5 or 6 teams are better than the rest, but those "lesser" teams are still fighting for points and dropping points drops aginst them cost place in the table and possibly CL or EL.

    Tata Martino on whether he'd call players from MLS and LigaMX for Mexico said:
    Martino echoed statements he made last week in which the ex-Argentina and Barcelonacoach said while the quality of play in Europe is higher, the competition is more fierce in MLS and Liga MX thanks to a higher level of parity.

    "Probably the Liga MX or the American league, there are a higher number of competitive games than in the Spanish league or the English league. If you look at the Premier League or the Spanish league, the really competitive games are 10 [of the] 38. Here the competitive games, if you really compare, in the United States where you have teams all having the same conditions for signing, I’m speaking in financial terms, you’re probably competing with more urgency over the long-term of the year in Liga MX or in the U.S. than the best leagues in Europe."
     
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    tata is lunching on this one...the equality of teams doesnt mean the level is higher...colorado rapids vs new england revs is not higher level than man city newcastle lol
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who has suggested an East-West game? Sources?
     
  12. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    #2137 Mahtzo1, Apr 1, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
    I did not "attack the messenger". It was not a deflecting technique....I'm not that smart. I made a joke. The joke wasn't even about Freidel, it was about something that he said occurred in Europe (or at least other leagues...I assumed it was in Europe). Maybe it was funny maybe it wasn't but it was still a joke (bad jokes have rights too!)

    As far as attacking Freidel's coaching abilities etc, you said more negative things about him than I have in all of my responses to you and yet you believe I am the one that has disrespected him. I refuse to believe that your reading comprehension is that poor, so what I think is actually happening is that you read the posts quickly and possibly carelessly with a preconceived notion of what you expect to hear from that poster (based upon your opinion of his/her thoughts and ideas on the subject) and if you see a key word or two than that is enough to confirm your fears and sends you immediately into defense mode. If I said something and mentioned that Klinsmann was my neighbor before I lost my lease you would probably take that as a swipe at Klinsmann's legacy and go into attack mode.

    I am not talking around his main message. His main message was that US players don't have to deal with the same kind of pressure as those in Europe. He said that it doesn't hurt the players enough to lose. He was pretty clear about that. He gave examples of the type of pressure: Relegation, harassment (that's what waiting by the car is), beatings by fans, fines and possibly something else that I am forgetting. He, of course implied that the players not caring enough was a bad thing. I took it to mean that they weren't motivated as much as they should be to win games. You apparently took it some other way.

    Edit/PS: I'm not really sure why you moved my response to this thread. I see that you have been commenting some about relegation. Do you think that Freidel's quote was pro relegation? I don't.

    I am pretty sure that he is for it but if he was using this quote to promote it, he did a poor job. He mentions it only in passing as something that European players are faced with (along with several other negative possiblities...two of which are criminal) and doesn't specifically imply any benefit to one above the other. If he is promoting relegation in this quote, he really needs to separate it from assault and battery. I don't believe Freidel is stupid, so I am not going to believe he was making that argument. Spend a few moments thinking about this one before you respond. Please. Would you mention physical attack in an argument that was pro relegation? If not, why would you think that Freidel would?
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I said "The responses..." and included a couple of statements of which one was what you described your comment to be.

    Moved here as this is a thread about environments for American player development. The intention is not a debate about promotion/relegation.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    If people dont like the message from Friedel, here a few comments from young Americans who went abroad from MLS clubs. The statements are slightly different, but there is a common theme. These were just from the last two pages. I personally think players going abroad from MLS are in the best position to opine on this topic. Freidel the player is in this category, but he did from a very different league.

     
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  15. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I am glad to hear you don't think Freidel's quote was pro promotion/relegation. I am still confused why you felt it necessary to move my post here. If you don't mind, what exactly do you think Friedel was trying to say in his quote if it wasnt focusing on higher level of pressure due to negative impacts (relegation, assault, battery, fines). In other words, I took that to mean, based upon his statement that players aren't hurt enough, that players didn't have enough motivation. What do you think he was referring to? Do you think it is somehow something that would positively affect development?
     
  16. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It has been a running convo over time
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This discussion didnt seem appropriate for a post game thread, somstoped the tangent I started.

    Freidel's simple message was that the players lacked the professionalism needed for high level soccer and suggested that it was due to a lack of internal and/or external pressure. I think increased pressure would help development significantly. It is about increased competition. I actually think we start to see it in the near future at the usmnt level as long as whoever is coach doesn't mess it up.

    You have probably seen me complain about arbitrary limits to keep players out the national team. That is because where we are talent wise. I fully expect the number of young players to get us to the point that we have 40+ players as regulars at big 5 clubs or dominating in MLS or other lower levels. That will be the pool and those guys are going to have to fight to make world cup rosters. That will raise the whole group.

    I think promotion/relegation would help in a lot of ways for everyone. I think those who are against it, don't fully understand the benefits. I am for it, but don't think it is the only way we can improve. Our other big sports have competitive environments with significant more pressure than seen in MLS. It could take a long time if MLS doesn't change how they do things. The statement that they are finally going to be a selling league is a positive step, but there are many more. Two very simple suggestions would be to stop using the media to be a marketing arm and treat it the same way other sports do and focus on attracting the people in this country who are actually fans of the game instead of converting new ones.
     
  18. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I think you read more into his quote than was there based upon your opinions and or the opinions that Friedel has expressed or that you believe he holds. If you look at the quote, he never mentions professionalism at all. He specifically mentions pressure and gives examples of the pressure but does not indicate what benefits added pressure would give. He doesn't even say whether it is a good thing or a bad thing but I do believe it is safe to say that he feels added pressure is a good thing. He doesn't say whether added pressure leads to more competitive games, teaches players professionalism, or anything.

    Agree that arbitrary limits and limitations are ridiculous.

    I personally believe that there are some benefits to promotion/relegation but also limitations and disadvantages. I don't really believe most people that are against pro/rel fail to see some of the benefits but I do think that they feel the negatives outweigh the positives and/or feel that it is not realistic and so why bother. I also feel that many in favor of pro/rel see the system in Europe and attribute some of the areas of superiority to pro/rel when in fact it is primarily due to other factors.

    I think that pressure is a fairly generic term. Beatings, harrassment, fines and relegation are things that I fail to see as significant aids to development (that is partly why I can't see Friedel's quote as anything remotely to do with a comment on development in the US. The bolded statement that you made is accurate and I think it is a prime mover in development. Increased competition at every level would include more players and teams that can provide better games (it doesn't do much good to be on a good team and beat up a bad team by 10-0...the only real benefit is practice with that team). It doesn't take relegation to create competiton for spots. It takes a surplus of qualified players to create competion for spots. That exists in the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc......even on the worst teams. Of course in those leagues there is a paradoxical motivation for the worst teams to tank at the end due to the importance of the draft. In MLS, because a significant number of teams are going all in on academies, that is not the factor it might be. The best players...the potential franchise type players are not going through the draft. As the quality of the player pool continues to improve, more and Americans (young and in their prime) will be qualified and eventually we will have a surplus (at least at the fringes). That is when we will have true competition. That is already true in Europe and has been for many many years and pro/rel is not the cause....the player surplus is the real cause.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This is just semantics. Swap Mentality for professionalism.

    You sound like a child who doesnt want to believe something that is obviously true. I am sorry Brad didnt provide his treatise on this topic. Of course, I have no idea what all Brad meant, but I have my own personal interpretation. The players simply dont have the internal or external pressure to perform. Some players cant stand losing and if they do, they do something about it. It doesnt appear that these players are like that. This is where external pressure pushes them harder than they would without it.
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    What are the negatives? I know of tons of positives.
     
  21. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I since semantics refers to the meanings of words, I suppose that is accurate. To me, mentality is a very broad term that could mean just about anything but the way it is used in soccer it generally refers to doing what is required to win and especially mental toughness and competitiveness. Professionalism to me refers to many of the little things that go into being a professional. Things that often take years to learn. It is also about the importance of the little things that are not readily apparent (and wouldn't be taught by "pressure").

    I promise I won't retaliate and attack your maturity but I fail to see that what Friedel said is obviously true and apparently you don't either since you said "Of course, I have no idea what all Brad meant, but I have my own personal interpretation." I'll ask the obvious: if you have no idea what he meant, how is it obvious?

    When you say "some players can't stand losing and if they do, they do something about it." I have to agree. I would call that mentality. That can be influenced by pressure. KNOWING what to do about it and doing it is professionalism. Relegation, beatings, fines won't teach WHAT needs to be done. A player that has that mentality you mention will try harder in games than one that doesn't but professionalism is what helps him take it a step further. One more thing. If a player has that mentality to begin with, the fear of those negative consequences is relatively unimportant. He will be motivated more by his fear/hatred of losing more than he would be motivated by relegation etc.
     
  22. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    qed
     
  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    WHAT needs to be done is that the players need to do everything they can to win. That means playing as hard as can all the time and putting the same effort toward training, conditioning, recovering, etc.

    I have no interest in debating words. I say that these players dont have the mentality or professionalism to be pro athletes. Extra external pressure may bring more out of some of them. The other ones would be discarded for those that do if we had a full system of thousand of professional teams. The closed system limits the number of players to draw from and investment in the game to a bunch of billionaires who dont know the game.
     
  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You havent shown anything and suggesting the negatives outweigh the positives makes me think you dont understand all the benefits or perhaps I am not seeing some of the "limitations and disadvantages". I also dont know why it isnt realistic.
     
  25. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Actually I really am not in the mood to debate something with a person that is not really willing to admit that there are positives and negatives to most anything and that is so closed minded as you seem to be. The fact that you make condescending statements assuming that I am childlike or condescending remarks about my ability to comprehend things doesn't help either.

    To me, it is obvious that there are pros and cons to both systems. Some of the things that you believe are benefits, i think I would disagree with...primarily with the stated cause/effect, I think. your stated reason for lack of competition, for example, is a closed system (lack of pro/rel?). I believe it is simply a lack of top level talent. We don't have the numbers of elite young players (depth) that they have in other soccer countries. That is changing but we are obviously behind.

    The fact that there are many intelligent people on both sides of the promotion/relegation argument indicates that it is not so cut and dry as you seem to think.

    You can't even understand that this whole conversation we had began with a joke that had nothing to do with promotion/relegation or a serious statement regarding development. What makes you think I want to debate anything with you? Why should I give you my opinions (notice I said opinions) of negative aspects of pro/rel when I have absolutely no confidence that you would consider it with an open mind? I have already wasted a great deal of time.

    Perhaps you feel the same way about me? You have already stated that I am childlike because I don't agree with you and have rather condescendingly told me that I understand the benefits of pro/rel. Why waste your time with me? You must get tired of arguing with a child.
     

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