MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    NV
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jet lag? Knee sprain? Fewer reps practicing with USMNT as a team than with Schalke?
     
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  2. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lokomotiv Moscow.
     
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  3. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Dave Sarachan.

    Pretty easy answer. He sets up a defense but doesn't think about offense. He then tells McKennie and Adams to cut all the passes in towards Trapp, but also press, and then try and get forward and be a 10.

    Tedesco moves McKennie around a lot. He has played 6, 8 , 10, RB, and CB already this year. In the UCL game he played 10 and 6. But when he is playing for Tedesco, I think McKennie knows EXACTLY what he is suppose to do. I doubt he has that with the USMNT. Probably, with reps he would figure it out. Plus, he has played Brazil and France his last two games.
     
  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Most of the answers have been thrown out... familiarity with team, quality of opponent, knowing role, Sarachan, etc.

    The one additional thing I'd add is quality and seasoning of teammates. He is playing in role with veteran CL players instead of being asked to do more with other "raw" youngsters and Bobby Wood or Zardes in front of him.

    I guess there is one additional thing which is connected to Sarachan and specific role is that he is playing higher for the USMNT than he usually plays at Schalke. I like that Tedesco had him as #10 in the first half yesterday, but i didnt think he was that effective and was much better in the second half when he played deeper. The role Sarachan has him play is much closer to yesterday first half than second.

    I wish we could just see him and Adams play side by side in front of the backs. I think both would look better. Unfortunately, that is unlikely in these next two games with Bradley and Trapp there.
     
  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thanks for the perspectives.

    I've noticed that a lot of B1 players don't look as consistently good for the USMNT as they do for their club and I was wondering if there's something the USMNT coach should be doing to maximize how our talent plays as, in IMO, these guys have the highest short-term ceiling given that they are used to playing against top-notch players in competitive games.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #2106 IndividualEleven, Oct 4, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
    FabJo--when in form at club level, he was generally quality for the US. Muscle and tendon issues have tended to limit his effectiveness.

    D-Will--criminally under-used and played out of position.

    Chandler--i don't think he has had the fire in the belly, tbh. In retrospect, he should not have been chosen ahead of Brad Evans.

    Jones--certainly had the fire in the belly. He brought it every time. Would love it if he became the US coach.

    Morales--was frequently played out of position at wide mid. His best match came when he played LCM in a nicely balance diamond midfield at Switzerland.

    Brooks--the Mex/CR fiascos aside, he has been good.

    Pulisic--has always brought it when fit.

    McKennie--better when starting from deep midfield.
     
  7. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tedesco has Schalke playing a cohesive tactical scheme that makes sense for the club and plays to the strengths of Weston and the players around him.

    Sarachan has not put any identifiable tactical identity on the squad beyond throwing 11 players out in a 4-1-4-1. It is not a coincidence that McKennie's best match for the US was when Williams captained in the -1- DM slot and organized the team while dictating tempo.
     
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  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Front 6 in the Portugal match were--

    -----------------------Sapong------------------------
    ----Agudelo-----Acosta----McK------Adams---
    ----------------------Williams------

    Sapong is a true back-to-goal center forward. He provided a varying focal point for the attack. And he provided 1 key pass and 1 assist in the match.

    From the 8/10 spot, Acosta may provide more than Adams does in the way of creativity when that close to goal.

    An similarly effective selection from the current callups would be:

    ------------------------------Nova------------------
    ---------Saief-----Acosta-----McKennie----Weah----
    -----------------------Trapp/Bradley-----

    Isn't Adams injured? If not, then he would go into the d-mid spot.
     
  9. LeYankee

    LeYankee New Member

    Dortmund
    United States
    Aug 20, 2017
    Since Sarachan is still in charge, you can probably write it down in ink that we'll see the 4-1-4-1 and that it'll probably be Trapp and Bradley in the 1 hole. I'm betting on Bradley in the first game, released backed to Toronto after that, and Trapp in the second game.

    The better news is we actually have decent enough wing talent to make the formation look somewhat dangerous even without Pulisic, as opposed to recent matches when Sarachan has looked like he's trying to find a way to throw five DMs out there. I'm excited about seeing Weah and Amon, and Saief and Green aren't bad options, either. McKennie and Adams, with Acosta filling in as needed, can sit in front of Trapp/Bradley, and Saief or Green could also shift there if more offense is needed.

    I really want to see Novakovich and Sargent, preferably for a full game each, but I suspect we'll see Wood start and play at least a half, maybe twice.

    It's a pretty good roster. Ben Sweat is really the only head scratcher, but the only clear MLS alternatives there were calling up a youngster who isn't playing much or someone who is primarily a right back. I'd have probably gone with Lima just to get a look at someone with more potential.
     
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  10. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It continues to amaze me that wanting kids to go abroad is controversial to some people. Here is another players thoughts of player who got an opportunity to train abroad. This isnt a player from any academy but one of the top 3 clubs.

    Thomas Roberts @ 2:55: "how each and every training session you come out here 100% knowing that it is going to be a battle every day and that, um, everyone competes, and that's different here. that is the different part about the US and Germany or here at Bayern."

     
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  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Brady Scott used the DA as a platform to develop, got to play with u20s last cycle, while now getting to play academy games each week and train regularly with the first team. Have to click on link to see interview. Around 0:50... "really adjusting to the speed of play and what it is like to play in Germany. It just a differnent type of soccer, much faster..."

     
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  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
  13. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    nah keep it every 4 years, that's the fun of the WCs/Euros/Copa. Forces players to only get a few shot at WC glory then it already jumps to the next gen.

    FIFA is already discussing their idea of a Global Nations League it's an 8 team tournament basically the Confederations Cup replacement and supposed to be every 2 years. Do that instead.
     
  14. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    one thing is for sure with all these tournaments, regional NL, Global NL, WC, Copa/Euro, Gold Cup and the reduction of friendlies in the future. Will make it even easier for countries to permanently cap tie players to 1 program as countries will be playing competitive games all the time.

    will become that player gets called up to senior NT, good chance will end up cap tied.
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    [moved from another thread per wixxon7 request]

    I took a look at Wolverhampton squad and there's actually very few England players, each of whom was not a large part of the salary structure or starting lineup.

    So, here we have an example of Wolverhampton bidding on the open market for international players and whose salaries are 3x what ATL has paid. I think that's a pretty good indicator that midtable EPL is significantly above ATL but YMMV.

    FWIW, the thought that Nagbe (who was believed to be a midtable EPL player by a respected poster) would earn playing time over Neves, Moutinho, Traoré, Costa is doubtful at best.
     
  16. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except that inflating the prices for domestic talent ends with inflating the prices for foreign talent. England overpays vis-à-vis every other league not in China or the Middle East, and most relevantly … overspends the other "big" leagues. This is not even really debatable. You can see that when you look at the wages of the Prem teams with teams in the other big leagues. There is a reason why Pulisic is going to the Prem as a Chelsea player and not a (for example) Atletico Madrid player … and it is because no other league has an abundance of teams that are going to spend that type of money on a player who is essentially a bench player at Dortmund. Again, wages in England is not a good apples to apples comparison with most any league.
     
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  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #2117 DHC1, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
    If England consistently overpays everyone, then most good players, like CP, will end up there (or at the few equivalent clubs in other leagues). It's a meritocracy after all.

    If those players end up not being effective for the money spent, the team rating will be hurt by the club's performance (which I believe is the majority of the ranking). For example, despite a payroll 2x of ATL, TFC is ranked 100 slots behind. So there's no free lunch here as teams that are bad at assessing player's value will do poorly over time.

    The ranking between EUFA teams should be reasonable as there's a good amount of interplay between teams and leagues and again, it's primarily driven by results. It gets harder when it's intercontinental. That being said, do you really believe that ATL team at $11M in salary is as good across the board as Wolverhampton at $33m/annum?

    Important note: 538 uses Transfermarkt's market value for leagues and teams, not salary.
     
  18. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2118 onefineesq, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
    And if most of the good players end up there (England), by your logic they should be dominating continental tournaments. But they don't. In 10 years of the CL, they have 1 winner (and only 4 finalists). Hell, in the last 20 years of the Europa League, they have 3 winners. For a league that outspends every other European league by quite a margin, and has done so for quite some time, that's an extremely poor return. Which brings me right back to … the league overspends for talent, and you can't simply look at wages in the EPL and draw fair comparisons. It can be used as *a* tool in an instructive manner, but certainly not *the* tool in the definitive manner you are using it.

    I said it in the other thread and I will say it again, this is all opinion ... and 538 is based on as much opinion (what they find to be important and give weight to in their system) as you or I drawing conclusions from the eye test is an opinion.
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #2119 DHC1, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
    onefineesq,

    I don't believe i've ever said it's "the" tool as I don't believe it to be so. It is a minor part of how 538 ranks teams and I think it's pretty reasonable how it's used.

    With respect to UCL success, 538 does note that there are top non-EPL teams that outspend and outperform EPL teams, as I think you know. I do think that most good players end up playing for teams who pay the most and not all of the highest paying teams are in the EPL.

    I don't follow Europa as much but that would be a pretty good indicator of your point. I did just see that Arsenal lost to Athletico Madrid in the semis which makes sense as AM has a much higher market value than Arsenal.
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Leagues don't win championships, teams do. The five teams that have won the CL in the last ten years are currently the #1, 3, 7, 11, and 13 in transfermarkt value. The runners up are currently #4, 6, 9, 10, 11, and 14. So 10 distinct teams who are all in the top 15. Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern almost make up half of the twenty "teams" that have played.

    Not sure why this was brought to this thread. MLS and Wolverton are not in the same realm as these teams.


    54 2008–09 Spain Barcelona 2–0 Manchester United England
    55 2009–10 Italy Internazionale 2–0 Bayern Munich Germany
    56 2010–11 Spain Barcelona 3–1 Manchester United England
    57 2011–12 England Chelsea 1–1*[K] Bayern Munich Germany
    58 2012–13 Germany Bayern Munich 2–1 Borussia Dortmund Germany
    59 2013–14 Spain Real Madrid 4–1[​IMG] Atlético Madrid Spain
    60 2014–15 Spain Barcelona 3–1 Juventus Italy
    61 2015–16 Spain Real Madrid 1–1*[L] Atlético Madrid Spain
    62 2016–17 Spain Real Madrid 4–1 Juventus Italy
    63 2017–18 Spain Real Madrid 3–1 Liverpool England


    # Club Competition Market Value
    1 FC Barcelona LaLiga 1,17 Bill. €
    2 Manchester City Premier League 1,13 Bill. €
    3 Real Madrid LaLiga 973,80 Mill. €
    4 Liverpool FC Premier League 926,50 Mill. €
    5 Paris Saint-Germain Ligue 1 912,65 Mill. €
    6 Atlético Madrid LaLiga 908,50 Mill. €
    7 Chelsea FC Premier League 861,75 Mill. €
    8 Tottenham Hotspur Premier League 801,50 Mill. €
    9 Juventus FC Serie A 797,50 Mill. €
    10 Manchester United Premier League 759,00 Mill. €
    11 Bayern Munich 1.Bundesliga 745,70 Mill. €
    12 Arsenal FC Premier League 615,50 Mill. €
    13 Inter Milan Serie A 582,40 Mill. €
    14 Borussia Dortmund 1.Bundesliga 556,80 Mill. €
    15 SSC Napoli Serie A 521,00 Mill. €
    16 AC Milan Serie A 458,00 Mill. €
    17 Everton FC Premier League 426,00 Mill. €
    18 AS Roma Serie A 398,40 Mill. €
    19 Olympique Lyon Ligue 1 389,40 Mill. €
    20 RB Leipzig 1.Bundesliga 384,30 Mill. €
    21 Bayer 04 Leverkusen 1.Bundesliga 377,05 Mill. €
    22 Ajax Amsterdam Eredivisie 368,75 Mill. €
    23 Valencia CF LaLiga 340,50 Mill. €
    24 Leicester City Premier League 335,00 Mill. €
    25 AS Monaco Ligue 1 304,85 Mill. €
     
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  21. Those values are a joke. Transfermarkt has no clue what they're talking about. For instance de Jong was valued by them around 7 million at the time Ajax already had rejected an offer of 50 million. The same with de Ligt.
     
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  22. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wolverhampton and MLS are not. But I brought up all Euro competition ... not just CL. The Europa League is much closer, no ... especially since Wolverhampton is now on the edge of (if not in) such a spot. And it was brought up in this thread because someone posted my comment from another thread. I wouldnt be commenting on it otherwise.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I believe that 538 did mulitple regressions at each year end between team’s market value and that team’s ending league position and found that they were highly correlated. Maybe for every low value, there’s an offsetting high one?
     
  24. Nope. They are consistantly sticking to their "value" while offers far exceeding that are known. Their valuations are always lower than the reality shows. Can't remember one that went the other way.

    Edit: They seem to operate a certain formula and it never gives an inflated result, but it is plain stupid to stick to your calculated number when you know offers are rejected that far exceed that. The one thing I think is missing in their formula is the perceived level the player is capable of reaching, which is a future thing, not a number from the past they use.
     

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