MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1651 Andy_B, Aug 22, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
    I won't back off too much it because while I appreciate what can happen in training, I don't think it matches real game play in a decent league.

    If training was as important as real games in a good league, Chelsea (and a bunch of other teams) would not send massive amount of players out on loan in the hopes that they can get game time to improve, at least for most players.

    I will certainly acknowledge that the younger you are the less of an issue this is for me. If CCV is not getting any playing time in a couple of years I will be pretty disappointed but for now, especially as a CB who tend to develop later than other field positions, we can hope for the best while at Spurs.

    No biggie, we can just agree to disagree on this point.
     
  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He did.

    It's too late for high potential kid, but we can waste time on hedges, Gonzalez, and Zimmerman?
    * I wasn't arguing for Rubin as his career has obviously stalled. Morris has a use for us, but huge flaws in his game and not on form.

    **JK had hits and misses. Arena as well. People can argue JK had a bias against MLS, but Arena has focused much more narrowly... mostly looking under MLS rocks or at least a connection.

    It's a shame Ramirez hasn't gotten a look, but less concerned due to his age (another victim of system in the US). I've I've already mentioned my displeasure with Miazga's lack of time. Hyndman is the player that I definitely should have gotten called in last spring... the argument was that the level in Scotland was too low. He's coming back from injury and made the bench today for a cup match. A long way to go, but should be on the radar of team that has our midfield.
     
  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Where do you draw the line of whata decent league is?

    Chelsea is at the extreme of the loan path and Tottenham is at the extreme of developing in-house. I wish MLS would pick one of those.

    Here's another young player talking about initial observations of move abroad.

    http://americansoccernow.com/articles/brady-scott-18-settles-in-well-with-bundesliga-squad

    “My first preseason has been great,” Scott told American Soccer Now from Germany. “I started out with the U-21s and because of injuries I have been with the first team for the past three weeks. My integration with the team has gone well, all of the guys on both the U-21s and first team have been very welcoming.

    "The quality of play of the U-21 is very good compared to the teams I have been a part of in the past. The speed is faster and the game is more physical because I am playing with older, more physical players. With regard to the quality of the first team, it is for sure the highest level I have ever trained or played at. Every shot that I get is challenging and I am always under pressure—which is really good for my development.”
     
  4. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not an argument, it's a fact. And of course when he played against the two teams in the league that weren't League 2/Conference National quality, he did not look good.

    Alongside a couple other 20 yr olds who are also a long way away from being ready to play in the League. Hell, last year he actually played in the corresponding cup fixture...
     
  5. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *I think you are confusing my words. I am not talking about what I want, that is kind of useless. I am talking about realistically thinking about what Arena will do.

    If you disagree that Arena will likely not call CCV this cycle, that is certainly a valid opinion. I don't see it happening myself but would be pleased if something changed.
    ====

    **JK's words never really matched his actions. I always thought he was more than fair giving MLS players chances. Arena clearly was given a different directive when he was hired. We probably can not realistically expect too much more new blood before the WC but hopefully one or two will break through.

    Although I thought it was very positive that Arena is already reaching out to Jonathan Gonzalez whether or not he sees him as a possible for this cycle.
     
  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d'Or

    Country players Total
    Germany
    5 7
    Netherlands 3 7
    France 4 6
    Portugal 3 6
    Italy 5 5
    Brazil 4 5
    England 4 5
    Argentina 1 5
    Soviet Union 3 3
    Spain 2 3
    Czech Republic 2 2
    Bulgaria 1 1
    Denmark 1 1
    Hungary 1 1
    Liberia 1 1
    Northern Ireland 1 1
    Scotland 1 1
    Ukraine 1 1
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    *not my intention... that displeasure is directed at Arena or a directive.

    **hopefully the directive changes after we qualify. We will need some fresh blood, ton of luck or CP to carry the side.

    JG was definitely a positive. The more young kids with potential the pipeline the better.
     
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  8. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Country, players, awards won...

    Germany is 5 players, with 7 awards won. Netherlands is an easier example (based on the table on wiki for players only shows players who won multiple times or won once and made top three at least once).

    Cruyff (3), Van Basten (3), Gullit (1)... 3 players, 7 awards won.
     
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  10. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I'm curious what people think would be the best option for Americans going abroad from MLS. Since MLS owns all the contracts they're the ones who negotiate sales. Would players be better off if individual teams owned their contracts and got to decide to sell?

    IMO if teams owned their players and got most of the money they'd be more likely to sell, especially if they can tack on a sell on fee than say MLS as the middleman. See FCD selling guys for 500k vs MLS not moving on Nagbe this summer to Celtic. MLS doesn't want it's best to go. Team owners want money. So how do you resolve this impasse other than players basically demanding they be sold like Castillo did?

    Because of employment laws and anti-discrimination laws I'm not sure MLS could mandate American player minutes minimums for each club but how can USSF encourage MLS to follow the Viera path and play kids? No one wants to play kids who can't cut it but there are tons of teams who could play more youth but don't for a variety of reasons.
     
  11. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1661 Andy_B, Aug 22, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
    Thanks!

    It is worth noting for people looking at this data that the Ballon D'or was not a world player award. Up until 1995 it could only be won by European players.

    Between 1995 and 2007, they expanded the award and allowed for any one playing in Europe to win, until finally opening it up to the whole world.

    This is why if people look through the list and don't see players like Pele, Maradona, Garrinca, Socrates, Kempes and many other SA greats from years past on it, they will understand.
     
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  12. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. I agree with you that sales would be easier if it was completely up to the individual teams but it is the owners of said teams who created and maintain the structure of the league.

    I think we will continue to see boundaries stretched though as teams continue to look for more independence on various topics.

    You probably saw the article that some owners are in disagreement with other owners on how to run the league in terms of investment amounts. Some want to start spending more now that the league seems stable and others (the older owners) still want to move slowly.
     
  13. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we can expect/hope for maybe some small additions. If memory serves DMB was not an integral member of the 2002 qualifying cycle (1 game I think) but was called up for the WC and had an impact on the field in the summer 2002.

    So it is not out of this world to hope that if McKennie breaks through or Gonzalez just has a killer year at Monterray that they might get a call up.

    There is not a lot of time to experiment though. The longest camp in is the winter when the Euro guys can't come. Other than that, it is just a small handful of friendlies to experiment.
     
  14. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Nagbe chose not to go to Celtic because they weren't offering him more money after taxes. The MLS cap system also discourages transfers because a player good enough to be bought is often significantly underpaid and replacing their value to the team at the same cap hit is improbable.

    I thought it was common knowledge that the balon d'or was euro only for much of its history.

    If training at Chelsea was a great environment for learning the game wouldn't there be a number of great players who spent significant time there in their developmental years. Wouldn't Lukaku or De Bruyne have been better training with those top players rather than playing all those pesky minutes on lesser teams.
     
  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Thanks... I wasn't paying close attention when I grabbed that link. It was such a silly comment that I didn't think I needed to put much effort in disputing... thanks again for clarifying.

    The names on the multiple winners is what stood out to me. Pele, Maradona, and Messi are top of many all time best list, but Euro contemporary' s of their's usually follow pretty closely... Eusebio, Platini, and Ronaldo.

    Here is a list that is probably a bit Eurocentric, but it looks like many Euro countries are currently developing some young talent. England is looking like they are starting to get their act together and France is of particular interest.

    https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2017/05/16/top-20-under-20-world-soccer
     
  16. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By world class I simply mean considered top competition the way the "Big 4" today are. Prior to the Club World Cup, there was the Intercontinental Cup competition between Europe and South American clubs and the winner of this competition was considered to be best club in the world.
     
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  17. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, I meant club teams.
     
  18. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only Germans to get close to a Ballon D'or in the last 20 years have been goalkeepers; they'd give their left nut for a Messi, Dybala or Neymar. Bayern Munich is basically Germany with foreign upgrades in the attack: a Polish forward, French/Dutch/South American attacking mids.
     
  19. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Training is training and playing is playing. One is not a substitute for the other; that's a fallacy. (i.e. training with Real Madrid is not equal to starting and playing in an actual regular season match in a weaker league).

    At a certain age, players need to be playing. Exposing young players to a rigorous / competitive training environment is important to build professionalism to be prepared to perform week in and out in a good league. The benefits of just training in a really good environment begin to diminish after a certain age, because a player's transitioning from learning to be a professional to being a performer. By 23, they should be locking down a starting position somewhere. A player like Arriola is going to learn more at this point in a key role on an ambitious team than still trying to break through in a harder league.

    Morris is better today, hands down. He's a key player on a title contending first division team. He's got more pro appearances, more NT appearances and a D1 title. It's not even close. Rubin's a bit younger, so he's got that going for him, but he's quickly approaching the age where he should be a meaningful player on a team and he's struggling to break through in shittier leagues than MLS. The MLS squad in Rubin's hometown is better than the one he's trying to play for; that's a benefit for marginal players.

    Potential isn't talent
    Effort isn't performance
    Appearances aren't victories.
    At some point to be considered a good footballer you have to play, perform and win, at whatever level.

    Morris, Acosta and Pulisic are all achieving pros (albeit, at different levels) that have been able to contribute positively to the NT. That seems like success. I'm personally rooting for all of them; it's not a development competition. On the contrary, it's a numbers game.

    MLS or USMNT is a false choice, mostly manufactured by Jurgen Klinsmann. It can die with his US Soccer career. No one else thinks its a contradiction to want both a world class soccer league and a world class national team. I'm curious what evidence there is for the opposing argument, since none is ever presented.
     
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Why would the most recent World Cup champions care about that at all?
     
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  21. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brings back memories of Julian Green, "but he is training with Bayern first team every day!".

    High level training is great, but it doesn't mirror the intensity and grit of real matches. Same with friendlies.
     
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  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I don't recall anyone saying either was a substitute for the other.

    Yep, the player has to ultimately perform, but not necessary during the development process. You cite 23 as the age that a player "should be locking a starting position somewhere" and that is right after th 18-22 yo period that MLS has historically not done a good job.

    If Arriola is a top 3 player on the team, the situation has a much better chance of not stalling his career. If that's not the case, he would have been better fighting it out at Tijuana or jumping to a better league. Is D.C. United really viewed as an ambitious team?


    I haven't seen Rubin play in some time. What I've seen of Morris this year hasn't been that impressive. Key player for first division team? He seems to be having less impact than Dempsey, Bruin, Lodeiro, Roldan, Jones, and Alonso. It has been first division in name for 20+ years. Level of play is still very uneven.

    Are you arguing for Rubin to move to Portland? What is track record for developing young American players?

    Morris and Acosta's contribution to the national team has still been quite limited. It seems a bit early to call it a success.

    I'm rooting for all of them as well. I have less hope for Acosta and Morris as they need to be in a better environment to reach their potential.

    Here's what I said...

    "I'd think someone would have to be more of an MLS fan than USMNT fan to want life long MLS players. There is just no track record and see no plan to develop American players to be difference makers for the USMNT."

    What's false about that? I want a world class national team and a "world class soccer league" would be nice, but not if is detrimental to the national team. There is nothing wrong or contradictory about wanting both.

    I don't understand MLS' plan to become this big league. It's focus seems on expansion fees and tv contracts. They both seem like lucrative endeavors, but have nothing to do with improving the game. What is their plan? When are they going to get really serious about developing players? Are they or are they just going to spread the extra revenue to all their current expenses such that the young American players are seen by the coaches an inferior option to 3+ DPs and whatever TAM and allocation money can buy them.

    What the league needs from the USMNT is for them to be successful as any success will drive the culture. CP will do more for soccer in the US long term than all the American DPs combined.

    What the USMNT needs from the league is to develop the millions of kids that are out there. The league seems to be unwilling to accept their place in the global game and work within it, and instead go from average to the best with a closed system. The league has no chance to be a sustainable top league until at least a decade after they go all in on developing their own players.
     
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  23. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most people recognize the time and effort MLS teams have put in over the past few years getting academies up and running and spending millions and millions and millions of dollars on training and development.

    YMMV
     
  24. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it is fair to say with them opening up their gorgeous new stadium next year, they are likely to continue what they started this summer. I am really interested to see how Arriola and Canouse fit in. Canouse has looked pretty good tonight.

    TAM/GAM is what is helping to pay Arriola. He is is just one of a ton of American's being paid by the allocation money system.
     
  25. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I recognize that, but it isn't a priority like the things I mentioned. If it were, they'd be much further along and we'd be seeing more 18-22 yo playing. They haven't spent near the time and money to consistently develop players of the level of league they claim they want to be.

    Maybe they are taking it slow to learn from mistakes and not waste money. That's fine, but it just means there are significantly better options around the world for our top players. It also means it will take them longer to meet their stated goal of being a top league... unless they are just going to buy a bunch of foreign players.
     

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