MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

You can possibly break down the MLS to Euro/Mexico even farther, and then there are guys that start in other leagues and move to MLS.

• players who train in MLS youth and then move to Euro youth for their first pro contract (McKennie, Hyndman etc)
• players who start in MLS and move to Euro (Yedlin, Cameron)
• players who train in MLS youth move to Mexico and move back to MLS (Arriola)

* then there is the Euro youth college path. Euro youth moves to states plays in college, then MLS, then US citizen (Dwyer, or possibly Harrison in NY)

 

This is a fallacy for a couple reasons: 1) those players were not developed in Europe. In fact, it's a funny thought since "Europe" has rarely, historically or presently, "developed" a player as individually talented as the all-time legends from Brazil and Argentina -- often the best players on European squads are South American.

2) the landscape of global soccer has changed a lot even in the brief time since those teams won a WC finals. Remember that Brazil and Argentina are two of the foremost soccer cultures on the planet that always develop world class talent and has some of the oldest and biggest clubs/leagues in football history. Clubs like Santos, Sao Paolo, River Plate and Boca Juniors were considered world class and the Copa Libertadores used to be a much more prestigious club tournament.

The point is that we need a world class league; world class coaching, training and development is a byproduct.

Dubious? England is one of 8 countries to ever win a World Cup.

You should not base what's likely to happen in the future based on the current status of things; as I have exhibited to you in this post, the landscape of football changes all the time so there's no reason to think the USA cannot have a top soccer league. That is really a lot less fanciful than thinking the USA can win a World Cup without one.

 

In the near term MLS doesn't compete for our best youth prospects (though that's changing at the margins if you look at Morris and now Arriola). That's the way it should be.

In the long-term, MLS desires to be top buyer of global talent, including young domestic talent obviously. Prestige follows money and so do players. Don't get too attached to the status quo.

 

You're sure about this statement?

 

Is that a rebuttal? It might be a fun debate, but my basic point is that Argentina and Brazil did not rely on foreign leagues to develop their players in the years they won WCs.

 

Do you know for sure the WC winners Germany, France, Spain and England and adding serial WC finalist the Netherlands too did rely on foreign developed players to win a cup/ reaching the finals, or had foreign developed players at all in those teams?

 

Playing is important, but think it gets overplayed here. I can think of a number of instances where training at a much higher level could have advantages to playing at a lower level. The simplest is just acclimating to that new level and/or developing the correct habits when starting out.

I'd prefer CCV playing in Holland than sitting at Tottenham, but also prefer sitting at Spurs instead of sitting at SKC like EPB. I think sitting for a half season Chelsea better prepared Miazga to go to the eridivisie than if he would have spend that same period playing with NYRB. I'm not sure why Tottenham isn't at least getting him games with the u23s, but maybe his coaches have an actual plan for him.

How can you say it didn't help Green? Maybe it wasn't ideal, but he improved materially from 2014 to the time he left the club. Maybe it messed up his head like you suggest. If so, then that is an issue he has to sort out or he was never going to be a high level player.

So this Jordan Morris vs Rubio Rubin comparison is silly and lacks context. We have no idea who is a better player today, let alone what their careers are going turn out to be. Development is about getting to the highest level, not who is the at a point in time when the players haven't fully matured. Rubin had a strong start to his career, but has suffered many injuries that have altered his career trajectory. Maybe we should wait and see if Morris is just in a sophomore slump or if he is going go the way of many MLSers who make splash to then stall out.

These kind of responses remind me of how quick MLS fans are to declare a development victory. Morris and Acosta are no where near successes yet. Unfortunately I can't find my favorite example. I was pointing out how I thought Pulisic going to Dortmund was great. That other kids his age would have to think about keeping up with him and I was told he would need to keep up zendejas who was getting first team minutes at Fc Dallas.

I'd think someone would have to be more of an MLS fan than USMNT fan to want life long MLS players. There is just no track record and see no plan to develop American players to be difference makers for the USMNT.

 

*You can't overestimate playing time IMO. You simply can't learn the things you need to know on the training ground.

*I agree, sitting at Tottenham is much better than sitting at KC. But in neither case does it help the US team.

*Green has gone from struggle to struggle. I assume you have seen the most recent news?

*I would be more than happy if the US had a team full of Donovan's and Pope's even if they never left MLS. What I want is for the best US team possible no matter what path the players take. I would hope that is what everyone would want but posts like yours seem clear that you have other agendas.

This last statement you made is what makes your side of the argument so hard to understand for many of us. It simply reads like you don't care how good a player is for the US team, only that he is not in MLS. It is really hard to discuss this when the view points are so hard leaned to one side.

In fact this whole argument has seen the same points made over and over again by both sides. In the end I am pretty certain that there will be many various paths to the national team. But if you want to believe there is only going to be one, that is fine too. I certainly don't possess any ability to predict the future any more than any one else.

 

I know this is how it read, but I am almost certain he did not mean it that way (at least I hope so, sometimes you can't tell just by the text).

There does seem to be a great lack of appreciation for the ability to believe there are different ways to develop players though.

I think it is pretty cool to have Tyler Adams in MLS, Jonathan Gonzalez in Mexico and McKennie in Germany, all roughly the same age, all roughly playing a similar position.

I would love to see more teenagers breaking through any where we can get them.

 

We only know two things in the current time context.

1) Is a player doing enough to be noticed by the national team coach for callups and
2) when he is called up, is he making any sort of an impact.

For this cycle anyway, it seems clear that Morris is in the top 20-30 players in Arena's depth chart and Rubin is not any where close to being called up (you might feel differently here).

I think it is fair to say in the current time context Morris clearly has a better chance to effect the US team than Rubin does.

I don't think any of us can predict the future so it could flip very easily next cycle based on new variables (new coach, different club form etc), but that is a different time context and can't be evaluated right now.

 

right.

I was in no way saying that I thought Morris was a better player than Rubin now or that Morris would be a better player in the future. All I was saying was that Morris has positioned himself to be part of the national team now, and Rubin has not.

This is not a development victory as was cynically referred to earlier, it is simply a statement of fact as we stand today. The notion that any simple mention of player in MLS doing anything remotely positive for the national team seems to be such an irritant to a few on here continues to tell the narrative that they don't care about the US team very much, they just want their "one way" to win.

I loved Rubin when I watched him play on the youth teams. I did not get to see him play much though in Holland but he seems to have a skill set far beyond's Morris's so I do hope in the future he can find a path to the US team and then take his chance when he gets it.

 

While it is certainly not recent we also have the oddball case of Stewart Holden

College(2 years)------->Sunderland(only a 6 month stay, attacked at a club, hurt and never played a minute)------->MLS(4 seasons)------>Bolton(~5 seasons, ******** you Johnny Evans)

 

*If someone doesn't think they can overestimate something, I'd bet a lot that they overestimate that thing. I thought the training ground is where you improve and the game was where you show it. Isn't the training ground where Miazga worked on the things that a couple of years playing in MLS didn't prepare him for?

*It suits the US quite well if he breaks through in the next couple years. He doesn't have to be ready today, but in 4ish years.

*it is looking less and less likely that he will anything close to what we hoped. Maybe he turns it around and becomes serviceable, maybe he washes out.

*id prefer a team of Pulisic, O'Brien, wood, Brooks, Yedlin, Reyna, Dempsey, etc. I'd actually prefer a team much better than that.

What is so hard to understand. It is simple argument. Playing at the highest level (term used broadly to include best competition, fastest pace, strong tactically, etc with the best coaching and training environments) increases the probability of a player reaching his potential and be a contributor on a national team in contention for the World Cup.

Then you are misreading it. I only care about how good the player is. If he can find a way to break through then great, but that is the point is should look to be moving to a higher level. MLS hasn't shown the ability nor focus on developing a lot of players like that. I think Acosta needs to move abroad and Arriola just made a bad decision. They are the same age as Green. There are a lot of kids a year or two behind them that are in Europe and looking to emulate what Pulisic is doing.

 

1) it's questionable that either is doing enough at this point. Our lack of quality has had me arguing that we should look at any player that has potential and then refer to #2.
2) Both showed that they might be able help but not necessarily the answer.

For this cycle, Rubin was ahead until injuries derailed his career. This is development discussion and the comparison was used to argue against a certain path for our top players.

 

I am not sure what this means.

But in any case Chelsea has more players on loan than they have on their roster. Players from England, the US, Croatia, Holland, Colombia, Brazil, Nigeria, France, Ireland and many other countries.

Each player was deemed they needed some extra work before they could play for a team the level of Chelsea. That goes with the territory of signing for a team like Chelsea. Blaming MLS because he was not ready for Chelsea seems kind of odd (but in line with the agenda you have) when looking at the other players Chelsea has out on loan from leagues all over the world.

 

Nope. Everybody Chelsea buys for less than the current EPL standard of 45 million €€ isnot ready for them. So everybody knows damn well if they are in the chosen few or not.

 

and in the future we can evaluate this. But until then we have no idea where his path will take him. It is nothing but pure guess work.

One thing is helpful though, he lack of playing time does seem to ease the need to try and cap tie him quickly. He probably won't have England breathing down his neck in the immediate future which hopefully gives us a little run way where the next US coach can hopefully cap tie him early in the next cycle.

 

You misread/chopped my sentence. I am in total agreement with you.

As such I don't quite understand why MLS is being blamed for him going out on loan and not being one of the chosen few. Blaming MLS is what seems odd to me (not that he was not ready for Chelsea as the odd item)

 

I was talking about needing to be better with ball at feet when moving to Holland. I couldn't find an article from back then but here's a recent one with Hamid commenting on his improvement and then Miazga's comments about his experience playing in Holland, how much he improved in training, and impact of stuff off the field.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/matt...-european-soccer-as/uoe7l9s5jet81heabaqjgs0o0

"(Miazga's) path is amazing," U.S. goalkeeper Bill Hamid told Goal. "He's growing, you can tell. The first day of camp he was sharp even though he came off the offseason. He was playing really, really well. I went up to him at the end of the first session. I said, 'Yo Miazga, I see the Dutch system is making you clean with the ball at your feet.' He's pinging the ball left and right and I can tell that is something he's learned over there."


Miazga's skills have clearly improved, but so has his mentality. Speak to him now and you find a young man who is more self-assured and focused than he was as a teenager with the New York Red Bulls. Hear him talk about the experiences of the past year and a half and you realize the move to Europe came at exactly the right time, even if it may have felt a bit early when he left.

"I have aspirations for myself to reach the top, to play at the highest level and challenge myself at the highest level," Miazga told Goal. "I know that going to Europe I’m going to get that challenge. I’m going to become uncomfortable, I have to deal with these situations, and I know that I have to continue to progress, be patient, and work hard, and I know it will work out."

Miazga has no sob stories about homesickness or second guessing his decision to leave the comforts of home. He knew it wouldn't be an easy road at Chelsea, but he also knows the experience of his first half season on the bench at one of the biggest clubs in the world gave him invaluable experience.

"The fact of the matter is, you’re an American and a young player in Europe, you have to go through the process," Miazga said. "I’m controlling what I can control, which is working hard, putting the work in, and to continue to play as well as I can. When an opportunity comes, I need to be ready, and I need to take it. That’s what I’m doing.

"Obviously it’s a different world in Europe. You always have to be on your A game. I know that. I know it will give me strength and shape me into a better player and a person, and I’m confident in my ability and I know it will lead me to my goal."

Miazga's first season after the transfer was spent on Chelsea's bench, which wasn't exactly a year gone to waste. He was able to work under respected Dutch manager Guus Hiddink while also training alongside some of the game's biggest names.

"You go to a big, big club where some of the best players in the world are playing, so the level’s very high, the standard’s very high," Miazga said. "You learn a lot in training. I’m training with Diego Costa, going up against him in one-on-one drills. Playing against top players like that you learn a lot, and at the same time you see their professionalism they have off the field. They hold themselves to a high standard, maintaining their bodies the right way, they eat the right foods. You see how professional they are and you try to learn from that and build that into your own routine."

 

right. every player that Chelsea loans out has to get better. That is why they are on loan.

Holland is a fabulous league to learn in and why I go back to my original assertion that Miazga on loan at Vitesse and getting playing time is better than CCV sitting at Spurs even if Spurs has a better over all team and league than Vitesse and Holland, at least in the near term.

Miazga has taken a path that has him on the periphery of the national team in the short term.

Where either player ends up in the future is anyone's guess.

 

Just like it is pure guess work calling in a "top" MLS defender and finding out it is too big a jump for him. CCV would be in my pool. I'd be having large camps and hoping some of these younger kids break through in the next year. It's not about cap tying them but being ready to play them when they show they can hang.

 

right, but what you and I think do not matter. He has to do enough to get a national team coach to recognize him and I think that will be tough with out getting some playing time.

I think it is too late in this cycle to expect Arena to give him a chance but who knows....

 

The article only talked about how much not playing at Chelsea helped him.

The comment was how a 21 yo defender who spent 2+ years in MLS wasn't prepared for the game at Vitesse. He wasn't just any MLS defender... "Miazga became regarded as one of the best defensive players in the league and earned MLS team of the week appearances four times throughout the season". It's no surprise that other MLS central defenders have the same deficiencies.

I'd think you'd back off the "getting playing time" when so many young players talk about their experiences and how much grow just through training. Your stance seems at least as inflexible as you describe mine. Both players should be doing the best things for their careers and our coach should select players the same way. Both are growing. Miazga is at a different part in his career. CCV is at the age that Miazga was playing MLS. There are pros and cons of both places for 19 yo, but I'd think if CCV were to go to Vitesse in a year, there would be talk about the deficiencies in his game.

Not sure why he has gotten so few minutes with the USMNT.

 

* one is being noticed and called up and one isn't. There is not much to question about it no matter what you think of the players involved. It is only what the current coach thinks in the near terms.

**I agree with this. For as much crap as JK deserved, you can't blame him for looking under rocks for better players.

While this veers off the development topic, I did really hope that Bacon was going to get his club situation improved. His move to Germany has not worked out well for him and has seen him him drop out of the national team picture when I think he has more to give than some players being called.