Another good post that I pulled from another topic discussing McKennie (German youth program after starting at FCD's program) to Acosta who stayed at FCD.
[pulled from YA] I agree that that is the choice that MLS has to make: does our domestic league reflect the level of domestic players or are we seeking to have a league that's well above where our player pool is? Given that choice, I'd go with staying at the domestic pool level and playing youth as much as possible: our core competencies needs to be developing excellent youth. I think we have the pipeline of highly talented young teens, we just need to refine them. Right now, the best of our propects are much much better off going to elite academies ASAP if they want to be a global star because MLS is a much poorer alternative given that they're focused on league quality and, therefore, DP players. The hand-wringing over MLS vs. Europe for fully developed players is overwrought IMO. The reason that a lot of our NT players are in MLS is because that's the right level for them (~15-20th league in the world). I just saw ESPN's top 30 MLS players and it became clear that none of the players listed is a UCL semi-finals starter level at this point in their career. For established players in their 20s, I see no need to go over to equivalent or less Europe leagues as MLS is on par with many of them.
Pulled from another thread. Well laid out post. Do you think that MLS is currently structured to reasonably allow talented youth to receive ample playing time and then quickly move onto better leagues? I think the current structure is specifically structured to work against this quite frankly. Who are the last five players who have followed CD path recently?
If you are referring to playing in MLS first and then moving to Europe, it is a short list. I don't know the exact years but since Dempsey I think we have Cam, Yedlin, Miazga, Ream, Jozy, Bradley, Guzan, EJ, Wolff, Sacha, Convey, Edu, Shea, Swag, Adu.... I might have missed a couple as well, this is just off the top of my head. If I got any of the years wrong (in terms of leaving MLS before Dempsey), I apologize, I am too lazy to look up the exact dates
i think this is a crucial issue for MLS, atm...especially i.e. USMNT. to me, MLS can have its cake and eat it too...but it needs to allow players to find ways onto teams that suit them. when a young striker with potential is stuck behind a david villa....there's literally nothing that young player can do to get on the field. look what happened with mullins after he left nycfc like 8 goals in 12 games...but you'd never know cuz he wasnt playing in front of villa - for many reasons. if you've got a player like EPB who isnt playing for SKC and a team like NYRB or NEREVS or MINN who have defensive problems...there should be a way to match the players and teams....or an ebobisse who isnt playing with a team who needs a striker etc......in other leagues...when a player isnt playing...they get loaned...needs to happen more in MLS, imo. i know im in the minority but my interest in MLS isnt in seeing where mls teams finish in the standings or who wins mls cup...its seeing which new payers are going to develop....and i dont think those aims have to be mutually exclusive.
If we're talking college---->MLS-----> top 4 league it's Cameron and Yedlin. You said recent and that goes back to 2012 so, I'd say 5+ years and the last 10+ transfer windows stretches the definition of recent. If we're talking MLS----> an attacker transitioning to a top 4 league, it's none since Dempsey. That covers a decade. So people can bring up the graduates of other leagues globally who went on to become top leagues stars, but it's been ~21 consecutive transfer windows since MLS sold an American attacker who transitioned well into a top 4 league. For mids it's not much better, have Cameron, Holden before that, Kljestan then in 2010 to Anderlecht, and for defenders it's better but not by much either. I'd think as a NT fan folks would be concerned that our resources and investment into development is at an all time high but production of higher league players from our domestic league has pretty much completely dried up. Where are the AM's, the wingers, the attackers? It's not because we have a bunch of ballers just choosing to stay home either. We saw that in the GC. Tyler Adams might be the next MLSer to transfer into a top league, probably as a DM. I like the kid. But again, we're so short on attacking talent domestically. We just aren't producing it. And over in the youth in MLS thread, it's complaint after complaint of youngsters not getting opportunities. Pomykal's been banished. Carleton's not in ATL's plans. A once promising attacker in Manneh just never developed. Morris and his 3 goals might be the best "young"(he's almost 23) attacker in the league and it probably is by a decent amount. Our positive injections into our B team is the Dwyer/Rowe types, 27 and 25 respectively. Not young. Tommy Thompson has gotten some hype lately. Is he the best youngish American AM in MLS? He has 1 goal/4assists as a 22 yr old in his career. This branches off into more thorough discussion in the youth threads, you should check them out DHC, but being a selling league is essentially just a byproduct of quality player development, more you produce, the more in demand they'll be, and to produce in demand talent you need an environment where youth flourish and get opportunity, then move up the pyramid at the right time. We just aren't doing that. So going back to Dempsey, well, it's 2017 and we don't have any young Dempseys patrolling MLS attacks and we haven't in a decade. He's 34 frickin years old, coming off a career threatening heart condition and there still isn't any American under 25 putting up anything near his current 11goals/ 3 assists. And he's not near what he once was. It's not just stats either, cats like Ramirez and Sapong are having success but aren't top league level ballers or young. And that's leading to much of the DP/TAM money going to importing foreign attackers. And is it a chicken or the egg thing? That's because there isn't much young American attacking talent or because foreign attackers are blocking the young American attacking talent? Either way, we're not cultivating young attackers. For me that should be a major intent of the league.
MLS has already made its choice. Having a top soccer league is an end unto itself; no country has won a World Cup by outsourcing most of its development. Even if we could reach the benchmark of having all of our players on highly-fetishized "UCL squads", that puts us at about the level of Croatia -- a respectable international opponent, but not a top side. In the short term, our best prospects will go abroad. In the long-term, they'll stay and play in domestic clubs. At least, that's what we should hope for.
i think MLS wants to be england but england aint doin jack either....croatia probably has better chance of doing something in a world cup than england atm.
Brazil and Argentina have won championships where a large percentage/the majority of minutes played was by players in top European leagues. If the point is that we need to develop players at home (I.e., development is more important that where they actually play), then let's embrace being a selling league and stop importing foreign stars who can no longer cut it at the elite level. MLS would actively look to play youth players and sell them asap. It certainly wouldn't set up policies that actively make it harder for our top youth to move up to better leagues. In other words, are we trying to be a successful version of England(!) or a top South American country? Right now, it seems to me that we're following the England path and that's terrible IMO as we're unlikely to even achieve their dubious level of success.
There's little to no hope of keeping true top ballers here, not with the glamor and money which comes with UCL. That's the big stage. That's where top tier talent goes. Combine that with the US along with Asia is still the most untapped market. Scouting will only increase. The raiding will only increase. The youth will continue to follow the Pulisic blueprint and use MLS as a safety net. Pulisic and McKennie are just the beginning. And kids will grow up trying to replicate them, not Gyasi Zardes. Just about every elite prospect who's spoken on it says "my dream is playing in the top leagues in Europe". It's just reality, like international basketball players dream of the NBA. Of course, non of this applies to 95% of our pool. It's MLS' job to do better with bunch.
I think Wolff, Bradley, and Convey moved before Dempsey. How many of these moves were slowed due to MLS "over valuing" the player? I don't remember all the details and feeling a bit lazy today as well. klejstan's move to Celtic didn't go through due to asking price and left a year and a half later for much less as only 6 months left on contract. Stoke offered a reasonable amount for Agudelo with only 6 months left on contract, to let him walk for nothing (while work permit rules changed). Was Dempsey's move delayed? What about Convey? I think his was just a work permit issue. EJ turned down chances to leave earlier.
Some but times are changing. We're seeing more and more signing with MLS by about 16, like Carleton/Pomykal. So even if they don't like their situations and want a different challenge abroad, their contracts will be up by 19/20, still fairly young. Just a different environment than when guys went to college, then signed with MLS and before you know it you're 23/24. From MLS' perspective, they'd be better served to make such cheddar of these guys, unlike the completely bungled EPB situation.
We are seeing more players signing at younger ages, but have yet to see MLS change their stance on selling players. They over pay to bring Americans back and over value without much of a track record to justify it. Yedlin and Miazga went to big EPL money. They were both not prepared for the level of teams that bought them. Both were learned out... Yedlin to a bottom of the league team where he "taught" how to defend and Miazga to Holland where he was told he had to improve his distribution. EPB wil be a few months shy of his 21st birthday when he moves. A lot of time has been lost. It's better than happening a few years later, but would also be better if he would have been moved 2 years ago.
I believe that there is a substantial amount of BS posters who believe that staying in MLS is preferable for our most talented youth because you can't win a World Cup without having a domestic league that develops young talent. Furthermore, instead of exhorting MLS to become singularly focused on developing (and selling) youth talent, they buy into the philosophy that we need MLS to be a top 5 (or so) league even at the expense of losing domestic players who are not able to compete at that level because eventually, our home-grown players will make it to that elite level. It particularly hurts our youth development because we create roadblocks with expensive name-brand DP players. Maybe I'm wrong in reading what others are saying but this is what I hear when people say that acknowledging that there are elite leagues well above MLS and particularly top tier youth programs that have a history of developing elite players (even though it is still a huge crapshoot) is "Euro pixie dust".
I think most reasonable people understand there is no one right path due to the massive variables involved. The more doors we have open the better. There is no way to tell whether Julian Green, Lyndon Gooch, Gideon Zelalem or Rubio Rubin and many more would have been better if they played in MLS first, similar there is no way to know whether a ton of MLS players would have done better if they went to Europe first. I don't understand the constant need to bash one side or the other. Why can't we just be happy that we have a growing domestic league with an improving domestic environment along with players who are attracting the interest of Euro and/or Liga MX teams?
There are rumors that EJ had a drug problem in his early years which caused some issues with some transfers until he got himself clean.
One topic I am interested to watch in the coming decade is the following: History tells us that the vast majority of the U20 and U17 team players do not become important players at the senior level for the US. The Euro teams have recently been signing many of these players based on their play in youth tournaments. I am interested to see if a larger majority of these players will become important members of the senior side or if it still will be a mixed bunch of a sprinkling from the U20's combined with later developers and players who were incorrectly evaluated when younger.
maybe it seems like people would just bash whatever is happening ....no matter what was actually happening. but for me personally, i see how the whole process is changing (and devolving) and it is not benefitting the USMNT. A very large swath of players who historically wouldve played significantly in MLS -some turning into euro players and solid USMNT players - arent even getting on the field much in MLS these days.....I also feel there's been a bit of a shift in how MLS-Europe are interacting....MLS isnt selling and Europe isnt buying (MLS players that is)..... to me, the problem is that there is so much waste in player development. much more than before, imo. there's always gonna be players who dont pan out....but now it seems there are a bunch of players who barely get the chance to pan out (or not).
Well, when a very young player moves to a league with development in their veins (Netherlands, Belgium, France and Germany), for sure it is better than staying in the USA. How it turns out is dependent on your real qualities. An 18 year old kid learns more in the Netherlands than in the States, especially on tactics. By being coached on it, but also by playing against teams that play with a tactical plan against you. Some consider Rubio Rubin's stay at FC Utrecht a failure, but he has been coached and developed by one of the best of the league. He simply is a far better player than the one coming in from the States. You still are up to the competition for a place and that aint easy in Europe.
Andy, You've mentioned several times that there are alternate paths (which theoretically makes sense). Do you feel the same way about forgoing a pro career to play in college for four years? Is that the equivalent to joining MLS? For me, the reason I "can't be happy" is that I think MLS is making a substantial mistake in both its long term goal and how it is choosing to get there; all the while, I acknowledge and appreciate that our domestic league has made significant strides since its inception. This IMO is detrimental to the USMNT. Ymmv. FWIW, I think that MLS academies are developing at an astonishing rate - watching what FCD has done had been mighty impressive (shout out to Clint Eastwood and a few others as I'm grateful for their insights). I'm pretty excited about our future.
I personally think playing at the highest level possible is the best way most players develop. I do not believe sitting on a bench helps development no matter how good your team mates. I much more prefer Miazga playing in Holland than CCV sitting in England. I don't believe it helped Julian Green at all to train with the best players in the world at the expense of sitting and likely messing up his head in terms of where he realistically thought he should be playing. Jordan Morris, who went to college is now a regular part of the US team and Rubio Rubin, who went to straight to Europe and way was ahead of Morris at U20 level, is not even a fringe player right now. If there was only one path, as you seem to indicate, this should never have happened. But it does happen and will continue to happen because the variables are so wide. So yes, for the foreseeable future, I see multiple paths to the national team. * players who go straight to Europe and stay there * players who start in MLS and move to Europe * players who start in MLS and move to Mexico * life long MLS players * players who played in Europe and then moved to MLS * dual nationals, either from Mexico or Europe
I know this thread concentrates on MLS and Europe, but I still hold out hope that something solid will be produced from Liga MX for the US. This is an exciting 18 year old prospect that already has Arena's eye. U.S. youth international Jonathan Gonzalez making strides at Monterrey http://www.espnfc.com/club/monterre...jonathan-gonzalez-making-strides-at-monterrey
I'm hoping that MLS is in a transition period from older high dollar foreign players to much younger not quite as high dollar foreign players to US developed academy players. First were the Etcheverry's and El Pibe's, then the Beckhams and Villa's now it's turning to the younger 20ish players from S. America but I do see a bunch of even younger US developed players nipping on their heels. The very best prospects will try and go to Europe but IF they start getting better training and playing time in MLS they may wait longer to go. In the very long term even that may change if MLS starts approaching the big US leagues but that is decades away. MLS is a moving target as it keeps improving which pushes the young players to keep getting better. At some point a lot of them will be as good as foreign imports and that is when they will change everything. I'll guess a gradual increase for the next five years.
MLS owners have slowly come to the following realization. Big name older players don't help tv ratings Lower named high quality SA players don't hurt gate attendance With these two things in mind, I think the owners are going to happily use young American players if they become better than the talent being imported from South America. That may take a while though and will be a little slower due to players going directly to Europe. I will say though if we ever in my lifetime get to the point where the "best of the rest" who stay in MLS can reach the levels where they would be considered at the Almiron, Martinez, Lodeiro, Piatti, Valeri type level, we are going to have some really good depth.