Michael Oliver to the MLS?

It means the same as it does for the development of players. It adds referees who have a great deal of experience and who can pass that on to our referees and it means those coming up have to up their games to gain a foothold.

 

But honestly...is the goal to have the best referees in the world service the MLS or should the goal be to develop US referees to be the best in the world? If all our best opportunities go to foreign born players, the chances for the best in our country are at least diminished.

I don't disagree that competition can breed quality but I'd prefer to raise our own brand and not another country's

 

Still plenty of opportunities for US Referees.

It pushes some down a notch. But there are plenty of games to ref. MLS has two new teams starting this season and more on the way. And USL and NASL need good refs too.

Hopefully anyone they bring over is willing to put in work to share their knowledge and experience in an attempt to improve referiing at all levels in the US.

 

Sure...tons of U14 games too. Some referees have the goal of reaching the MLS and 2 extra teams means 1 extra game a week. Now I don't have to just be the best in our country but I also have to be better than one of the best in the worlds toughest league?

 

There are a finite number of MLS games in a season. 374 this season. Soccer is a sport that plays 1 game a week, which is clearly unlike MLB, NHL, and the NBA. The mathematical hit of adding any referees in MLS or the NFL is significant because that simply means someone isn't working for a week. And when you consider that it's a job and a profession, that means lower paychecks for them and their families. If your opinion is that there should be a fixed number of slots in MLS, then any foreigner brought over means that an American has directly been put out of work.

It pushes most down a notch. Maybe all except Geiger and Marrufo. Again, there aren't plenty of games to ref, and the pay for USL & NASL is nowhere near sustainable for someone whose job is to referee. That isn't a sound argument.

If your measurement of "plenty of games to ref" is done with the up-and-coming referee in mind, then it still doesn't hold water. They just got bumped down a slot on the pecking order if a foreign ref is recruited and brought over. That's not good for referee development.

All of this is wrong. Anyone who comes over is looking out for themselves. They have no other mandate, nor any other motive.

 

Sure, but I do think the standard improves. It may not be clinics or something like that but you do learn by watching, working with, and interacting with referees with that kind of experience. If you want to get into a PRO or get the top games, it becomes tougher. I don't think it's really practical to recruit from abroad in numbers but I don't think it's catastrophic to push the lowest rated guy out with someone like Oliver. I think MLS and most fans would take that everyday. If you can find a balance and pick the right guys, I still think it can help.

 

I just got my season ticket package today so thanking as a fan, no I'm not really willing to buy American simply because we need to develop someone or keep him in his job. MLS is improving and I think on some level it's improving faster than the referees. It's certainly expanding faster than the program might be able to keep up too. I'm trying to take a pragmatic approach. We have a much better pipeline system than we had in the past because there are more pro games and they are doled out more selectively. We don't see first year nationals get to MLS in a trial assignment after a couple of less intense tests anymore. It will take time for that to really work and produce more quality referees. It's not a sustainable solution, but I don't think it hurts to supplement the pool by one or two until we have that talent. We all make a choice to pursue refereeing. It's not a guarantee, it's a risk. It really isn't much different than what I do. If someone can do it better, I'm out and I deal with visa workers in that market all the time.

 

By adding two more teams this season, they added more games. I am not sure how many times Atlanta and Minnesota are playing each other. If those teams schedule a couple friendlies that's maybe another 4. Add in any preseason games they play within the US that's a few more games. That is one more referee to help out with those games.

We all know MLS is continuing to expand. LAFC is starting up soon. MLS will be expanding to around 32 teams eventually. That is more games.

MLS teams are also starting USL teams. That means more 2nd/3rd division games as well. These are all opportunities for referees to get more games and work their way up.

I said hopefully. And your assumption that they are only looking out for themselves is pure 100% bias.

I can flip this quite easily on you.

Some of these arguments come across as protectionist at the cost of bringing in more knowledge to the US referee pool. Which is the better long term solution?

I don't think PRO should bring over many referees. I don't mind one every now and again.
It brings in outside thinking with fresh perspectives and a different experience that can be shared across the US.
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MLS isn't going to stop adding teams until they reach around 32 teams.
The lower divisions are getting more stable and adding teams as well, MLS is helping with that to a degree.
There are more opportunities to get quality games on they way up and within MLS.

An occasional high quality ref being hired from outside the US is not going to have much of an effect outside of adding more knowledge and experience at the higher levels.

I definitely appreciate the concern.

I am just not convinced an occasional ref coming over is an issue and I think that it has the potential to benefit the referee community as a whole.

 

During the late 70s and early 80s the NASL brought over foreign referees each season, usually three.
They were typically FIFA referees and came mainly from Europe with one Mexican. It was a different group each season, although one or two returned for a later season. These three referees took over 50% of the available matches each season, and together with the use of several Canadian referees, this had a devastating effect on the development of US referees.

In effect almost an entire cohort of US referees was unable to develop, because they were limited to appointments as linesmen. By the time this import system ended, these referees were essentially too old, and so a new cohort came through, several of whom went on to do very well domestically and internationally, and then continued as instructors and assessors for many years afterwards. Few of the ones whose development was truncated stayed in the program, so aside from being lost as referees, they were lost from the program.

So, in short, the use of foreign referees, no matter how good they are, does inhibit development of US referees. Anyone who thinks it doesn't is delusional in the extreme.

PH

 

Entirely true.
But is it MLS's job to develop US referees, or to field the best referees they can?

 

Both.

It's MLS' job to create a solid product on the field that produces competitive games each and every week, top to bottom. That is largely accomplished. Look at the standings. Look at the scorelines.

It's MLS' job to finance the technology that allows for its coaches, players, and referees to get better by analyzing their performances. This includes TV camera quantity, TV camera quality, Fitness/Performance technology, Sports Scientists, etc. With PRO handling the referee side of this, this is halfway accomplished, but is light years ahead from the pre-PRO investment that MLS made.

It's MLS' job to promote a professional atmosphere that adheres to the LOTG. It took 3 hard tackles in 2010 for them to get completely on board with this mindset. It took 3 stars being hurt for the season for them to realize that they needed to support the referees and promote a culture where physical play isn't rewarded. For context, 2010 was the 15th season of MLS.

It's PRO's job to field the best referees they can. This is accomplished through closely-monitored performances, assignments that make sense for the next generation of officials, and a structure that has a clear advancement route for officials. This has just happened (Prus, Simmons, Black, Wright hirings). It took PRO 5+ years to figure this out.

So, if it takes the stakeholders so many years to pull their head out and determine the right moves they should make...why is it that they (and we) expect the referees to be perfect the next week?

 

Well, yes.

Math doesn't work that way. TY = 22 teams X 17 home games. LY = 20 teams X 17 home games. It's irrelevant how many times they play each other.

MLS has very publicly said that they will expand to 28 and then stop. Anything past 28 is pure speculation.

Yes.

MLS began partnering with USL in 2013. They've had USL teams for years now. The USL has added 1 team this year. There are 15 more USL games this year than last year.

All of this was addressed quite well by MR. Your argument is completely misguided.

Again, MLS has been very up front that 28 is their number. 28.

The NASL was folding until Gulati called his fellow Columbia friend and had him buy the Cosmos in order to keep the NASL alive in the 11th hour. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't spread it around as though it's factual. The NASL is extraordinarily fragile right now, as multiple teams couldn't make payroll. USL teams hover around breaking even each and every year. PDL/NPSL teams play about 8 home games a season, don't pay their players, and rely on sponsorships & concessions to break even.

You say you're "just not convinced", as though you're willing to changing your mind. I don't think you are, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not, I'll be honest.

Instead of dealing in hypotheticals, let's deal in actuals. Do you believe Alan Kelly's mandate is to "add more knowledge" or to referee games? Do you believe his contract asks him to "benefit the referee community as a whole" or "referee the damn game"? This is professional sports. Stop thinking it's your local Chamber of Commerce.

Again, let me be clear: Any foreigner that is hired as a referee is here strictly for the 90 minutes, has no vested interest in the development of referees, has no reason to acknowledge that USSF even exists, has no desire to cultivate the next up-and-coming referee, and will leave the country with the net effect on referee development being negative, because domestic officials had to yield the floor.

 

I believe that MLS has never cared for nor been interested in developing US referees from day one. This is one of the big problems when the national federation does not run the professional first division. MLS has no interests to USSF from a referee standpoint and even a player stand point. MLS has always been about MLS and only MLS and they have never cared for nor listened to the federation. Only when the national team does well, do they start to jump on the back of the federation to claim some of the glory. When the national team flops or the national team coach criticizes the league, they start to get defensive and angry.

I truly believe that MLS has never cared about developing USSF referees. If they did they wouldn't have told them to ignore fundamental aspects of the Laws and they wouldn't have had their games be played under rules that the rest of the world never played under. They wouldn't have employed an indoor referee (Dr. Joe) to be in charge of referees.

Remember how they just got rid of referees after one bad game? They always wanted the finished product, but didn't have the resources or the cache to bring in the finish product. Now they do and I think more foreign referees will come in.

In fact, MLS, in my opinion, almost has no interest to the USSF from a player aspect as well. The only reason they seem to be making more of an effort to develop the domestic talent pool is from a pure economics standpoint. They realize it's not yet financially feasible to import all foreign players. MLS doesn't want to get on the FIFA calendar because, in their mind, it's "too cold" to play games in the winter in Toronto, New York, Montreal, Philly, etc. yet Russia and Northern Europe don't seem to have that issue... but I digress.

MLS has realized that it's relatively cheaper to bring in an Alan Kelly, Michael Oliver, Clattenburg, etc. then wait and invest the time to develop our own referees. It's not that cheap to bring in David Villa, Pirlo, etc.

Exactly! In the interviews that Kelly has given, he never has mentioned anything about developing or growing the game here. It was always about what MLS can do for him and what he can get out of the league.

Also, Kelly has been here for three seasons now and has pretty much done every top game in MLS, probably more than once, but he has not even been on one Open Cup game in his time here....

 

With the PRO system in place, it seems to have had a inhibitory effect in getting referees interested in developing into the pro leagues. Previously, when local linesmen (or ARs) were used in the games, other local officials knew these guys and many thought "perhaps that could be me" and worked towards that goal. There was always a few dozen or so who were trying to get that opportunity and would attend every match, go out after the match with the game officials, and go to all the clinics and tryouts etc.

Nowadays, the entire crew is flown in, comprised of individuals who are essentially strangers, and it seems like a closed system, being very difficult to break into and very remote from the local level.

Not to mention the fact that not everyone who is interested and capable of refereeing at the professional level is prepared to give up a good career to do so.

So bringing in foreign referees will just make matters worst, and this will trickle down to the local levels.
How many of us are getting desperate emails every week from assignors looking for officials for many of their local games that they have uncovered?

PH

 

If you’re solely a fan and not a referee (regardless of level), you want the best product on the field and don’t care where the referees are from. If you’re a referee (which is why you’re on this forum), the reasons given here to justify bringing outsiders don’t make sense to me in my opinion.

The guys I know who dream of one day officiating in MLS started to be utilized in USL games last year. How does this news about plucking foreigners motivate them any more? It doesn’t.

They already went to every tournament known during the summer and various seminars, when most people their age are on vacation with their girlfriends or families. They do every amateur game they're assigned and anything else asked to be “recognized”. Their hope is that they’re not being strung along doing these matches for less than desirable pay and all they ask is that they be treated fairly.

Guys are going to learn nothing standing there as a 4th official while these hired guns do the matches. It’s naïve to think that these guys are going to be a big brother type. This isn’t like doing youth matches where the assignor asks you to mentor a newly minted Grade 8. Also, if you think they’re going to stop at one or two referees, I disagree.

It’s irrelevant that MLS will continue to expand. The spots should go to our guys.

Some of the top referees in the world come from small countries with weak domestic leagues. In a country with over 318 million people, we have to poach from others?

 

You really think 4th officials learn nothing from watching more experienced centers?

 

Unfortunately, for the vast majority of these guys, this is exactly what is happening. The probability of
being seen, recognized and moved up is very low indeed, especially true for the DA events.

Very subjective, of course, and there is always favoritism and politics and individual preference for
referee style and appearance.

There are quite a few who have been 4ths for several years and not moved up. A couple of them did finally
call it quits for this season, probably having seen the "writing on the wall."

It’s irrelevant that MLS will continue to expand. The spots should go to our guys.
[/QUOTE]

Very true.

PH

 

Observing is not the same as doing. You learn nothing about actual being on the pitch with a whistle.
You do learn how to absorb a lot of criticism for something you didn't do.

In the BPL, the 4ths are mostly existing referees who just switch roles in alternate matches.
There is not a semi-permanent group of 4th officials seemingly in limbo for many years hoping for
a chance to get the whistle.

PH

 

True, but England has far better lower leagues to train their refs than we do.
I still think it's more valuable to ref a reserve match (do they still do that?) and 4th an MLS game than it is to center a lower division game.

 

http://proreferees.com/features-development.php

Check out this power point.

Also, don't forget the amount of commitment that now PRO is asking of the "tier 1" and "tier 2" guys to do for them to try to get into MLS. For example, they are asking the guys that are invited to go to Adidas Generations Cup to commit to for like 10 days or something of that length. Unless you own your own company/business or are a college student (even a college student couldn't afford to miss that much class time), it's almost impossible to commit to that amount of time if you are a working professional. Keep in mind most of the guys invited are in their mid to late 20s so they are not established professionals that have a lot of PTO.

They are essentially asking them to commit PRO level time without the PRO level compensation.

So they are essentially dragging guys along on a string for a shot to be a 4th official. Only for them to become a 4th official and see Michael Oliver or Nicola Rizzoli come in and take the full time slot they have been working towards for 5+years.

 

This is exactly what I feel is happening for many of these guys doing the USL/NASL match and MLS 4th officials. I, especially, feel that is happening to the MLS 4th officials.

Put yourself in Daniel Radford's shoes or Alex Marisical. You have been an MLS 4th official for almost a solid decade and you have over 100+ matches in the MLS as a 4th. You have done everything and more that has been asked of you and you see them bringing in Oliver, Clattenburg, etc. How would you feel?

While those sort of scenarios do happen all the time in other industries and fields, refereeing is different. Refereeing has always been, for the most part, a "pay your dues" industry/field. No matter how good you are, you kind of have to pay your dues and wait your turn to get to the top. It is like that in every country in the world. Even Howard Webb, Mark Clattenburg, and Nicola Rizzoli all had to pay their dues at the lower levels and leagues before they got to the big time. They all ran lines and did games in villages in the small towns in England and Italy before they get to the top.

They might have been fast tracked or progressed faster than others, but they, too, went through the pyramid.

Bringing in foreign referees goes against that entire process and system. It's a slap in the face and a really slippery slope that MLS is going towards.