Post-match: Mexico 3-US 0 9.6.19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by manfromgallifrey91, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    This speaks to the fact that this situation is inherently broken. Managers of sports teams are usually, ultimately have to achieve results to remain in their jobs. If they don't, they start costing someone money, either the owner or the federation. When they start costing someone money, they are fired. In this situation, that isn't the case. Berhalter loses? The fans from the other teams still buy the tickets and drink the beer and eat the popcorn at the stadium, filling the coffers of the federation. Berhalter's results matter not one bit to the Federation's bottom line and in that way, outside of failure to qualify for the next WC, his job is secure until the end of his contract.

    What I love is the fact that he's already grumbling about the questions just like Arena and Klinsmann did before him. "You people just don't understand the process, and I don't need to be responsible to make you understand. You aren't worth my time."

    Granted it's a tough job, getting players together for a short period, and not always all the best players who should be at your disposal. There's a reason we all wanted Tata, because we knew he was going to be up to the job. Berhalter is showing clearly that he ain't.
     
  2. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bedoya as a 6 against Brasil. Position to succeed. Um, no.

    Back to the Berhalter bashing though.
     
  3. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    JK brought Beckerman back in. That was a great move.
     
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  4. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That guy was only ever going to play to his potential for one guy, Bill Belicheck. He, for many reasons, is the only pro coach able to take me-first guys like AB and turn them into a team first player.
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I kind of feel like we are trying to revive jones/beckerman/bradley but not acknowledging you could do that because they were each uniquely gifted for that position in also having skill on the ball, some finishing ability, etc.

    i think if we were honest about what the pool contains, we wouldn't take the team down this road. rather than taking a mallet and trying to whack round blocks into square holes, we would shift for the time being to a round hole related formation.

    to me the talent right now is in the attack. i think we have some forwards who can play. but right now they are being serviced by DM "types" who actually aren't that good at DM, so we can pretend they will ball-win. i would instead pick 2/3 or maybe all of the midfield on ability on the ball, and maybe have a secondary criteria be ones like Holmes and Adams (and to a lesser extent Morales) who will also chase. that way we can at least get the ball downfield more and create more chances for the forwards.

    i think if the midfield was more of the attacking types they could make up for the defense being chosen for marking ability.

    I would also probably shift to something like a 451 which is really just a matter of pushing the wings back and the mids in. clog the midfield for defense, and then get out and run on offense.

    but anyhow my point was why run out the hustle players in a period where they aren't particularly talented.
     
  6. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Perhaps this will make more sense:

    Re Morales: I see his callup serving two purposes. 1) evaluative 2) as a player to help us win vs. Mexico given choices available/not available. The reason it makes sense to me that he would not be played in the role that Trapp played is that in this particular game it is (IMO) far more important to properly evaluate Morales. As such, I think it makes sense to put him in a role that gives him the best chance to succeed. The choice makes sense to me if you assume that the 6 role in Berhalter's system is different and complicated enough to reduce Morales' chances of succeeding in the role. (remember he only had a few days in camp). This choice, I believe is independent of Trapp's role. I also don't know if that was Berhalter's reasoning or not.

    The question of whether Trapp should be playing as the six (or whatever you want to call it) is more dependent upon Berhalter's other choices with experience in the system. I mentioned Pomykal but he has the same issues that Morales has. FWIW, I believe Pomykal could do a far better job in the role than either Trapp or Bradley but based upon the basic criteria of having to have some experience within Berhalter's system my first choice for the role (temporary) would be Roldan. As other's develop and get more experience, both at the NT level and in Berhalter's system I believe there are others that would pass him up. I am completely ignoring Adams until he is healthy.

    One more thing about Trapp, of all the things Berhalter has done, his regular inclusion is the thing I find more confusing and disturbing than any other. I definitely don't believe in any of the conspiracy theories but perhaps at some point in time I will put on the tin hat that I store in my closet.

    I said nothing about the system but I have never liked any system that was too much of any one thing. I didn't like Spain's style of play when they were at their best a few years ago and I don't like Berhalter's attempt now. I do like possession but feel that our passing should always be trying to dictate to the other team and to create openings. Short passing opens up the direct ball over the top, or a switching ball etc. the Direct game makes the short game easier and the long game makes the short game easier. Not a difficult concept and it holds across sports. In football, the running game opens up the passing game, the short passing game opens up the long, pasing opens up the run etc. Soccer is no different.

    Sorry for the long post. I suppose I could go on and perhaps it more clear for anyone that isn't too bored by now.
     
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  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i don't buy this is what happened for a second. before he showed up he was greasing the skids right back out of town, beginning with the "frostbite." i think the deal is he wanted a pats trade or a steelers release but the pats were willing to give up too little and the raiders offered good enough a deal. he couldn't force two trades in one offseason so he set about on his version of the plot to How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days. let me make their lives hell until they release me. the raiders complied. people want to play for NE and try and win so a lot -- but not all, eg, Aaron Hernandez -- of their misconduct straightens out.

    if the Raiders had guts they would have left him suspended for the season.
     
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  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the fundamental mismatch i see is we are going to build from the very back and play a 433 but then everyone until the top line are lunchpail luggers. normally a team obsessed with buildup and possession goes out and finds, you know, people with some skill. like when JK tried his version of this we had gringo and kljestan and mixx playing.

    however people need to realize that if we call in backs right now for passing it will be like those pre GC friendlies, that game would be more like 5-0.

    where the changes could be made without dropping our defensive pants, is in the midfield and forward. you could pick better forwards, talent over hustle, and you could pick mids with more ball skills.
     
  9. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    It's like the team and game plan were as diametrically opposed as possible:
    Line up 3 hustle/disruptor mids - one of whom is great in the air and can crash the box, another who can take a shot or clean-up a scrum in the box by banging a shot on goal, fast FBs with good foot skill, a quick, dribble n run AM. Two plugger CDs. And two scruffy poacher-ish forwards...

    And ask them to play every ball on the ground...

    Maybe if you play 180 practice games like that, you will create some kind of effective hybrid that allows you to defend and counter when you want and control and possess when you want. But you can't do it in a few weeks with a friendly or two. That's cray-cray.
     
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  10. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Raiders couldn't take that cap hit with nothing to show for it, I would assume. Otherwise why else would they release him? This move must free up space to go get someone who has a modicum of class and humility.
     
  11. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Berhalter doesn't play 8's. I said from the beginning that Berhalter would improve in the area of width but leave a Grand Canyon like Arena in mid. The worst thing about Adams coming back is that he'll cover up for McKennie's deficient game. The real solution is that Earnie tells Berhalter he has to appoint an assistant like Ramos or Wicky to help him in mid. Berhalter just doesn't understand midfields. I've said it all along and the fog is beginning to lift but the media hasn't been able to admit it yet because they are embarrassed to tell the conductor they got on the wrong bus.

    Zardes was ok in the early part of the cycle as we waited for the fog to clear but it's clear a) we'll need more out of that position than Zardes can give us and b) with guys like Sargent, Soto, Ebobisse, Toye, Weah, etc. coming of age it's time to move on and get ready for Qatar with whichever kid manages to survive the elimination process.

    CB's - if you have two cb's and you want to play the pass out of the back system, both must be able to pass and Long certainly doesn't thave the left foot necessary to play lcb. If you want to include somebody who doesnt pass all that well, try using 3 cb's. If Trapp isn't very good defensively anyway, wouldn't that make sense?

    Boyd needs to stop playing the game in his head and start playing the game on the pitch. There was a moment when Cannon (for once) was in pefect position for Boyd to score and Boyd just watched Cannon waltz by before looking him off and charging into the machine gun fire instead. He contributed in the defensive half, tho. There's improvement.

    Media - the Total Soccer Show post mortem was pretty good.
    https://www.totalsoccershow.com/

    They dont go the whole way but are starting to get there.
     
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  12. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #412 gunnerfan7, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Bedoya at a 6/8 is fine. Putting him as the lone 6 against Brazil is dumb. But, as I said, he experimented in Friendly games and threw his net wide trying to find players. But when the games mattered, he played some kind of a 4-4-2/4-5-1, focussing on transition game more than possession. And we were never pantsed by someone like Mexico like we were in this game.

    Sure, there are some long passing sequences, like the 22-pass goal against Germany, but JK eschewed possession for its own sake for the most part.

    Berhalter's "spin" on the idea of possession seems to be, pass the ball back to the GK, then trackback as we're pressed, at which point the GK/CB makes a panicked pass to a midfielder/winger that is being pressed.
     
  13. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    We seemed to be getting some ok play on the ball early on. I liked the sequence from about 11' - 12' but cant understand for the life of me what McKennie is doing with a stupid shot on goal that could only make sense if he were expecting a deflection. Does anybody have any better explanation? We had held possession for about a minute and were probing for an opening.
     
  14. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    There’s a difference between putting bad players in positions to fail, and putting otherwise good players in unfamiliar positions, or ones that they don’t excel at. JK did the latter a lot, but he didn’t do the former as often, and at least had enough sense about him to abandon or at least alter a plan when it became obvious to everyone it was stupid.
     
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  15. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Agreed. The midfield is a huge problem and they play a totally and completely incoherent system. That is coaching. The role Morales played and McKennie normally plays is destined to fail, especially when the person behind them, be it Bradley or Trapp, needs so much cover from them against even decent opposition. Someone else correctly pointed out that the only time in the last 3-4 years the midfield has held their own against a respectable opponent was the Portugal friendly in 2017. It's not a coincidence that we had an actual destroyer (Danny Williams) at the 6, and a backline entirely comprised of guys that can actually defend (Yedlin is hit or miss but he hit that game). Play a real back four with a #6 who can defend and tweak the roles of the other two center mids and we could actually be onto something. There are several guys that can play there, it's just a matter of finding the best combination.

    I was okay giving Zardes a run out. But the longer him playing over better options has continued, the more troubling it becomes. I just don't know how it could have taken so long to decide the obvious, Altidore and Sargent should be our #9's at every opportunity until proven otherwise. Either Scuffed or TSS pointed out that Zardes has played an absurd percentage of available minutes at the 9 position, like 73% or something obscene under Egg. And the real problem is for the way Egg is wanting to play, he should literally not even be on the list. You want to run and gun and counter? Fine, Zardes might possibly make sense. But you want a 9 who is a connector and drops into gaps to help ping the ball around? No thanks.

    Our options are very limited in terms of defenders who can play in this type of system against good teams. I'm not sure they exist. Unless you want to drop down a tier or two in talent to play this way, it's probably time to adjust. If absolutely everyone was healthy, it would have to be something like Hollingshead at LB, Brooks/Miazga at CB. Dest at RB and Jesse Gonzalez as the keeper. Ream and maybe Alvarado could back up the center backs but I can't think of anyone else who could make this garbage system look even halfway decent. It also excludes large chunks of our best talent. That's a failed system.

    I'm about halfway through the TSS post mortem right now. Taylor is as fired up as I've heard him in a long time. I'm impressed. Until they are willing to call for Bradley's exclusion from the team and quit parroting the long diagonal pass garbage the fake soccer news media trots out there, I will not be fully on board with them. Scuffed finally did a great segment on what a garbage line that is.

    But I do like TSS. I was aiming my critique at the "legitimate" media like SI and NBC. They need to take a stand and quit covering the team until they are allowed to speak freely and not threatened with lack of access, blackballing of reporters, etc.
     
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  16. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Actually, I think McKennie was quite terrible. He was always completely out of place when Mexico recovered the ball and started a counter. He's a player with almost no positional discipline. That his club had him move around the whole field last season didn't help, either.
     
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  17. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    It's the worst game I remember him playing for us. I think a lot of it had to do with him being put into a position not at all suited to his strengths. How can he be expected to be the creative center midfielder when really all he's shown offensively is the ability to score. The whole "Trapp must play" thing forced him way out of position to make room for Morales whereas if Morales had just been allowed to play the 6, McKennie his normal spot, and an actual creative player like Lletget or Pomykal play the other spot, things would not have looked near as dire.

    OR, and hear me out, we play a freaking double pivot with McKennie and Morales and still play a creative player in front of them who would have minimal defensive responsibilities? You know, like both of their clubs currently have them doing... I once saw McKennie hit a long diagonal that Zardes immediately bungled too! If only he'd chip a keeper we could have WM90 for life!!!!!

    Seriously, I like McKennie. He played a bad game. He was set up to fail and underperformed even with that caveat. He's still one of our best players.
     
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  18. mattyfire

    mattyfire New Member

    Dec 7, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Berhalter has used a 3-5-2 before right? I think that would take 2 positions of weakness (CDM and our young outside backs) and give them both support. Centerback also is also probably our deepest position in the pool. Or it could even look 3-4-3/3-6-1 if Pulisic needs to be wide.
     
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  19. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I asked this question someplace else where they were talking up our talent based on 4 BL, 1 EPL and 1 Turkish league starting: How many BL players were on Mexico's team on Friday? I don't remember any.

    I enjoy watching BL every weekend. I don't follow any other foreign league except on a spotty basis. BL is good football but people should be wary of assuming a BL player will automatically help our national team. He may or may not. BL doesn't have the billions to spend like EPL. Morales played a long time in BL before we called him up and played him.
     
  20. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's worth a try, imo.
     
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  21. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    #421 Patrick167, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    If this country cared and covered soccer like they do football...

    What would be said about a coach that runs the ball into a 10 man front every down in some quest to establish a "running identity". He would rightly be lambasted as an idiot. There would be tons of analysis of how you need balance and by using the passing game it would open space. That you can't learn anything by simply handing off over and over into a defense that has sold out to stop the run. Nobody would suggest the coach needs better players either.

    That was the game Friday. In a similar game, against the same opponent, the USA players solved the press problem by going direct to the forwards. Ream did it for what should have been a goal. I think Miazga did it to spring Arriola. Forgot who did it to put Pulisic in. Chances were created. But it was NOT what 3G wanted.

    Did he go into this game explicitly demanding no passes longer than a certain length? Or no passes over two lines? Tata saw that quickly and Mexico totally sold out the press. Everyone up, 1 v 1 vs Boyd, Pulisic, and Zardes in the back. But, unlike the GC final, the USMNT refused to solve the problem with direct play to the forwards and just played into the Mexican pressure. Combined with worse players trying to do it and it was ugly.

    If GB did do this on purpose, he should tell us. His players are getting killed for not being good enough or not being smart enough. But we just saw them solve the problem one way and then go out of their way, in this game, to not use that solution. It had to be something they were told to do?

    What the USA tried on Friday only worked for a short time for Spain. It doesn't even work for them anymore since Xavi retired. You have to have some threat of going over the top to keep the press honest. The fact it was a Friendly probably made matters worse, as what did Mexico have to lose by committing everyone forward? Do it until they stop you.

    If you watch the game, Mexico plenty of times played over the top of pressure. It is a part of a game plan and not something that says you are bad at soccer.

    Oh, and while 95% of analysis of GB is on his offensive system, this passive mid-block defense is the pits.
     
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  22. Salmos

    Salmos Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 26, 2010
    Berkeley, CA
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    US-based soccer media became over-optimistic about the level of the Bundesliga since there were a few solid USMNT players getting regular PT in the league (goes back at least to Fabian Johnson's prime). But if you look at German teams in Europa League, Frankfurt's recent top 4 finish is the first since 2009 for German teams. Gives the impression that BL is a top heavy league (and that's assuming the top teams always compete in CL, which except for Bayern is rarely true). Plenty of MLS and Liga MX players would have no problem getting minutes in midtable teams over there.
     
  23. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    This is a great post and I love your football analogy. Let me add on with a point about Spain.

    I lived in Spain in the height of the tiki-taka Barcelona/Spain soccer era. I was there for their Euro win in 2008. At the time, and probably still, Spain was dogmatic about possession. They had futsal courts all over and little kids would be playing rondo games instead of small-sided soccer. Possession was as important to kids as scoring goals in a lot of ways. However, they always had a plan B on all their teams. They knew that teams could expend a lot of energy to ball chase and even their guys, who were actually amazing at keeping possession, could be played into traps and lose possession deep occasionally so they always had a Guiza or Fernando Llorente who was there for the purpose of being subbed in if they had to hit long balls to a #9 who could settle it. Llorente scored some decently important goals for Spain in his time and it wasn't because he was more talented than David Villa. Barcelona had Eto'o at the time who they would gladly spring on a quick counter if a team tried to press them (ask Man U about that in the CL final). Someone like Egg would have been crucified in Spain for not having a backup plan.
     
  24. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member+

    Mar 3, 2010
  25. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah
    Yeah... that was by far the worst I have ever seen McKennie play... for club or country. As an attacker, his only above average skill is in the air IMO.... but while he can be dangerous with flick-ons... it doesn't translate all that well in the box because just like the rest of his offensive game... he just doesn't have a nose for the goal. He had an opportunity in the 1st half to head the ball in from roughly 6 or 7 yards out but he tried instead to head it to someone else. In the second half he got the ball very close to goal with time to turn and shoot but he passed back outside the danger zone instead. I could see him being valuable offensively with said flick-ons if GG would advocate some more long balls out of the back... he has such great hops he could win some of these balls and start a run over the top of the D for another player. I have watched Weston a ton at Schalke and his worth has been felt a lot more as a defender. They call him a terrier who quickly gets up and down the field and puts his nose in the right place to cause turnovers. He is still young, so perhaps his attacking prowess will grow with time... but I don't see him as the best attacking midfielder moving forward. One thing is for sure though... he is not nearly as bad as he played Friday night. I think that was just a very poor game for him.
     
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