Post-match: Mexico 3-US 0 9.6.19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by manfromgallifrey91, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. napper

    napper Member+

    Jan 14, 2014
    Fullerton
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Finally got a chance to watch game. My notes:

    First half: We started ok the first 20 mins. The press was winning balls. We held some possession. But, we had poor passing (Morales) or slow decisions (Pulisic) that killed it. Also, Mexico always waits to see what we do first, before they step it up.

    Then, Trapp marks absolutely no one in box. 3 Mexico players walk in behind him as he ball watches, goal Cheech.

    Mexico targeting Dest.

    Love the fight, Morales!

    Pulisic wants to beat Mexico, love it!

    Second half: Good start is encouraging. However, Mexico covering Trapp and forcing us to play out wide, which results in giveaways.

    Morales and McKennie 1-2 ball quickly across midfield. More please.

    Herrera should have been red carded!

    McKennie has had a couple of chances, but he’s not a striker.

    Defensive cover and switching is still poor.

    Just clear it, Zack. Just. Clear. It.

    Nice volley Alfredo.

    Countered. Goal Mexico.

    Nice passes from Pulisic and Lletget to Morris, who is running into space, towards goal.

    Mexico score 3 different ways. We miss a PK.



    P.S. Sarachan beat Mexico.
     
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  2. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I'm sure it's happened before, it has to be absurdly rare.

    American Samoa, in their infamous 31-0 loss to Australia, got a shot (which was on goal). After that Copa America semifinal, I pulled up every single shutout loss by the last-place teams in every Euro 2016 qualifying group (including the likes of San Marino), and not once was any of those teams held without a shot. I looked up every time the USMNT was held scoreless all the way back to 1994 (before which stats became hard to find), and once again, it never happened. No team has ever been held without a shot in the history of MLS, which we know because it was widely reported when the Sounders came close to that ignominious first in early 2016. I played for a college team that won an average of one game per season and was badly overmatched most of the time, and I do not recall ever failing to get at least one shot.
     
  3. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid


    Trap is marking space instead of people. Wrong. You've got to man-mark in the box. He needed help, too. It's not all on him. Dest got beat like a donkey and did not recover.
     
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  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At 9 seconds he clearly is cutting off the cross to...i think it’s number 8. C’mon.
     
  6. twoolley

    twoolley Member

    Jan 3, 2008
    Biggest prob is that neither Boyd nor McKennie are anywhere close to the box.

    Watch first screen you see Boyd at top of picture. Never drops back until it’s too late. He should have been somewhere in the play.
     
  7. rgli13

    rgli13 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    what runners? im really asking. who exactly was pulisic "missing"?

    his options for combinations/targets are dest (decent early), morales, zardes, late runs from mckennie and cross field to boyd crashing (which he really doesnt do).

    not evaluating pulisic at all, what can he do about that?

    zardes couldnt find any space at all, and we all know he cant win a ball.

    i just dont see how its on pulisic is all im saying.
     
  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    So....Berhalter has created a system that he has only used Bradley or Trapp in our most central position.

    Because he only uses those two, it makes sense for him to not only continue the system but also only use those two players.

    And that’s a reasoning that you “can see”? Does that mean that you think it’s rational and defensible?
     
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  9. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member

    Aug 1, 2014
  10. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I'd forgotten about PP.

    Main job of a creative player is to set tempo, another reason I wouldn't view the slashers as creative types. Either way, more Yueills, Lletgets, and Pomykals need to be in the lineup.
     
  11. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member

    Aug 1, 2014
    It could be worse, Panama just lost 2-0 at home in the CONCACAF Nations League...to Bermuda. They look unlikely to make the Hex.
     
  12. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Thank you for putting words into my mouth. I know that we disagree on some things but please try not to complete my sentences. That is my wife's job.

    While I definitely agree that I didn't explain my reasoning, I didn't say I agreed...I just said that I can see the reasoning behind it. " To some extent I can see the reasoning for starting Trapp: who else has gotten time in that role? Starting Morales in an alternate role makes sense in some ways." were my exact words. I don't think that is exactly a ringing endorsement for either Trapp or the "system". (Unless you change from "to some extent I can see" to completely see and agree with and "some" to every.

    As far as Trapp is concerned, I think it would make more sense to play Morales in the role he played, with the knowledge that that can change, while playing someone else in Trapp's role. I don't know who off hand. Pomykal would have the same issues that Morales had (new to the team), I don't see Lleget there although I suppose that is a possibility. I'd rather see Roldan fill that spot than Bradley or Trapp (but he wasn't on the roster). I am ignoring Adams for the moment until he gets healthy.

    By contrast, the reason I don't see any sense in playing Zardes over Sargent is that positon in the "system" seems to be less "unique".
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why the conspiracy theory? <sigh>
     
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  14. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  15. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Either that or it's time to get scared of Bermuda.
     
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  16. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And this was what it looked like all night. Someone needs to tell Berhalter that playing out of the back sometimes means playing that mid-to-long distance pass. The main reason our players were under so much pressure in our own end was that Mexico knew they could give us the option to go long and we wouldn't even try it. Even tiki-taka teams play the occasional long ball. It forces the opposition to mark players farther back, which prevents them from pressing as high as Mexico did.

    All night, we played the ball over the pressure into that space exactly once, when someone finally played a long ball to Zardes, who flicked the ball to one of our wingers (Morris?). IIRC, it was past the 80th minute. Would have been nice to see that earlier.

    If Berhalter really wants to force players to get used to short passes out of the back by taking away the longer passing options, that should be a training-ground exercise. No team plays that way in real games.
     
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  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The whole point of my post is that the “reasoning” you referenced is circular and therefore non-sensical. The reason I asked you if “you think it’s rational and defensible?” is because I thought it was probable that you do not. That’s quite different than putting words in your mouth.

    It appears to me that what you wrote was giving cover to Berhalter by saying that “to some extent, I can see the reasoning for starting Trapp”. This implies that there is a reasonable basis behind it and I’m simply saying that it was Berhalter’s stupid-yet-unwavering choice to create the situation which you then listed as a reason why it should continue. That’s simple not a reasonable basis for doing what he has done in every single match in his tenure.

    The Bradley/Trapp decision is far far worse than the Zardes one and it’s not even close.
     
  18. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    I'm very late to this party but I watched the game and rewatched the 30-minute version to see if anything else stuck out to me. Lots of good takes in this thread but a couple of things I think haven't been discussed enough as well as some of my takes on seemingly controversial topics to follow:

    The lineup - We were not set up for success for a two main reasons:
    • Our center mid trio was totally redundant. Trapp is a 6 without the defensive ability necessary to compete at the international level. McKennie and Morales are 8's that skew much closer to 6's than 10's. In a game you are trying to build from the back and use short passing and movement off the ball to create the space needed to advance the ball systematically, none of those three have the skills necessary as a strength of their game. We really needed to cut Trapp out of that midfield, move Morales to the 6, Wes to his more commonly used position in the GC, and bring on Lletget or Pomykal to start.
    • Zardes at forward. When I saw Zardes I was not surprised and assumed we'd be playing long counting on Pulisic and Boyd to run off him which actually could have worked. But, when your entire system is predicated on being banned from playing a pass beyond 25 yards, that is pretty much the most anti-Zardes system I've ever seen. I don't know how Egg could have come up with his tactics and then decided Zardes was most suited to be the guy to drop in and connect play. He literally CANNOT do that.
    The players:
    • Morales - I thought he was good and showed he could be an option at the 6. At the position he played, McKennie is better. But he was physical, had heart, tackled well, generally connected well enough, and almost scored. He got skinned by Lozano. If he's not on a yellow, he takes one there. Meanwhile, Trapp got burned multiple times in the box by lesser players just like Bradley did against Mexico last time. I'll take Morales as Adams back up at the 6, please.
    • Dest - He was basically what I thought he would be. Really good going forward with something to be desired defensively. I've watched him a few times and feel like he's a midfielder still learning defense which is totally fine since he's 18. I think this would work better either as the RB in our current system or with a double pivot center mid. My conclusion is that Dest as an 18-year-old is already a useful player for us and if we either change our system or his defending gets a bit better, that utility may be as a starter very soon.
    • Boyd - Disappointingly bad. It makes him look that much worse when Morris subs in for him and instantly gets involved and makes an impact. He may be on the outside looking in of the 23 when Weah is healthy and Arriola is back. I don't think the way we played suits him, similar to my thoughts on Zardes regarding the tactics being wrong for him.
    • Center Backs - Zimmerman was as bad as I've seen a CB for the USMNT in a while. Long was only slightly better. They are both very mediocre passers and Cannon and Steffen aren't exceptional for their positions either. Only Dest was a superior passer out of the entire backline. That's a problem given the way we tried to play. Furthering that issue is that Zimmerman in particular clearly got frustrated and they both started making bad defensive plays on top of the system failing them when we were in possession. If we really are going to play like this, I don't see any way Brooks and Miazga aren't our starters, probably with Dest at RB.
    Troubling Takeaways:
    • Trapp and Bradley have STILL played every available minute at the 6 except when...wait for it...Jackson Yuell came in to save the day! Wtf? Give someone else who is probably better a shot at the 6 when it matters, Egg. Morales should have started at the 6. It's a worthy experiment.
    • Coaching - We really didn't have the group of guys we needed to play the way Egg tried to get us to play. I'm all for lofty, inspiring total football but the goal is not to play the prettiest soccer, it's to qualify for the World Cup. And to those saying Egg will change things at the Hex if we still can't play out of the back, don't you think this next year would be better spent finding and honing a functional system that our players can actually perform in rather than try a pie in the sky system only to scrap it at the last minute. Sounds very JK like...
    • The soccer media - It's time to sack up. I consumed quite a bit of media and other than some excellent podcasts like Scuffed, very few are willing to call out the problems. Someone on here referred to it as "soccer fake news" and that is a very apt description. I don't need Grant Wahl and others writing articles calling for Egg's job but I need them to write valid critiques that say something other than "it may have looked bad but we are trying to build something and that's definitely the right thing to do. Patience is a virtue..." A free press is a good press and SI, NBC, etc need to follow the Philadelphia Union Observer's lead and refuse to accept their press credentials as long as strings/access are attached to them.
    Final thought, it was a frustrating game to watch not because I expected to beat Mexico, I really didn't. It was because I was actually excited to see Dest, Morales, Pulisic as a winger, Boyd, even Cannon again and see what lessons we had learned. It became clear pretty quickly, basically after Tata's first adjustment, that we had buried our head in the sand and the game wasn't fun to watch from then on other than enjoying some fancy dribbling by Tecatito and useful possession by El Tri. I think it's time for Gregg to do some soul-searching because I just can't believe he's really so delusional to have made the call to so obviously force his players to go against their individual strengths to such an absurd degree. If that's coming from on high, he needs to show some leadership because they are ruining any good reputation he had coming into this job. If he's making those decisions, well, he needs to burn some sage and meditate away all of that disastrous mindset and get back to the drawing board.
     
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  19. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    "The lineup - We were not set up for success for a two main reasons:
    • Our center mid trio was totally redundant. Trapp is a 6 without the defensive ability necessary to compete at the international level. McKennie and Morales are 8's that skew much closer to 6's than 10's." @UncagedGorilla

    This. Redundant and poorly used. We had no "creative ACM/#10" (Pulisic was a "wide #10 -the Dempsey/LD role - in one player. I think Wes was supposed to be the other, but that's not his game) no "holding midfield" (I think Trapp was supposed to be this - or he and Morales as double 2way, but neither are good enough to hold vs. Mex) and yet we tried to play through the middle. Morales, Wes, even Trapp are not bad players in and of themselves, but none can do what they were asked to do at a level that will challenge Mexico.

    Had we dropped one of those three (Trapp please...) and added a creative/attacking player in the middle who could control the ball and tempo a bit (even if it meant moving CP central and giving him an attacking/control-based creative wide player to work with) then forcing the ball out on the ground might have a been a somewhat less futile exercise.
     
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  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    one thing people need to consider when making "we looked good for ______ mins and then fell apart" arguments is whether that is what the system is designed to do -- or, conversely, what it does whether the coach realizes it or not. early klinsmann we used to be frenetic for about 60 and blow them late. to me there is a correlation.
     
  21. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Yeah, those rankings also have Trapp and Long as two of the worst three players on the night with a 3 (the other being Steffen, who is not long out of MLS). Berhalter also bottomed out with a 3. So perhaps it's just an opinion about a game more so than a calculated marketing strategy.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I liked the spirit of Morales, which has been largely missing since Jones retired. However, he is not that level of player either side of the ball and was victimized for goal 3.

    I am struggling with where he fits in because he physically and emotionally acts the part in a way that the others do not, but performs the position at the same level, giveaways in the passing game, back passes, getting burned.

    We need pure attackers and pure defenders, and not this in between stuff. He is definitely not an AM. To the extent evaluated as a legbreaker I would rate him behind Adams and even the more inconsistent McKennie but ahead of Trapp and Co. because what he does, while mediocrely executed, is contagious and we start to play like an international team defense has to.

    I would keep shopping DMs to see if anyone out there is a more complete package -- Sabanadzovic, Holmes etc. -- but keep him in mind as a bench DM option.

    I would, however, show the sucker's tape to the others auditioning for the position and say, this is intensity level you need.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    There is no reasoning for starting Trapp or Roldan or a list of others. It's like being a fan of the color beige. You are giving up on special or accountable and basically saying against the backdrop of settling, this guy talks a good game and is as good as I can do with a failure of imagination.

    You cannot settle at multiple spots on the field with 9s out there to play defense, "two way mids" no good at offense or defense as 10s or 6s, backs who are better at venturing forward, a keeper we incessantly pass to for starting attacks who is nothing special at distribution.

    Even one of these choices is an exploit for the other side and we are stacking them up. You can't start settling on half the field and expect for us to look like anything other than a slapped together side.
     
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  24. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I argued this (ad nauseam, I know) before he was called up: he's a perfectly respectable disruptive DCM but if you try to play him in the "Bradley" role, he will not give you what you need (I know it's heresy, but Bradley is [*was*] a better holding midfielder than Morales has ever been). If you play. Morales in the "Armas/Pablo/Beckerman" role and let Wes grow into the Holding/2Way central player role and add a 3rd 2way/creative midfielder to help the transition from Morales/Wes to CP/Strikers he can be useful. But none of the 3 of Morales, Trapp, Wes have enough technique to be a box-to-box+creative midfielder. And CP can't do it on his own against the Mexicos of the world.

    This kind of formation *might* get us past some of the lower-mid Concacaf teams, but if it does, it will be clobbered once we face a well-coached athletic side willing to press, double team CP, play patient and hit on the fast-break counter when the wide FBs get caught forward.
     

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