Mesut Özil

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by hackespitze123, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. Goetzil10

    Goetzil10 Member

    Real Madrid
    Germany
    Jul 1, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I completely agree with your analysis of Wilshere. Probably one of the most overrated British players around and still playing on his reputation from that Barca game years ago. I know Ozil can't turn the fortunes of his team by himself, but in my opinion he has the capacity to do more than he has.
     
  2. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    We do agree that Özil is capable of more but perhaps we just differ on philosophies of coaching relative to player performance. I feel players today are so rigidly trained and tactics are so meticulous, they become direct reflections of those very conditions and despite being talented, don't have the singular will to step out of that and become completely autonomous. I didn't mean to get into this more but it's the same reason we're not seeing a lot of on-field leaders like a Viera, Effenberg, Puyol, Keane ilk being produced any more. It's an entirely different topic.

    If we accept this theory and we see leader types they come in the form of players like Suarez and Ibrahimovic who use their economic and cultural backgrounds as motivations. They are anti-establishment players who use that aggression to motivate their game. I don't think Germany is necessarily producing these types because economic conditions have improved so much with every generation. Generally ahead of other European nations and naturally South American and African nations.
     
  3. Goetzil10

    Goetzil10 Member

    Real Madrid
    Germany
    Jul 1, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    That's a very interesting and perhaps accurate take at it. I've always felt Mesut's rather withdrawn personality can be a sort of hindrance to his development into a truly leading player, as he is naturally shy and more willing to defer to others. It's funny because his game is almost just like his personality, always creating space for others, always assisting others. Maybe I just want him to step out of his comfort zone a little more.
     
  4. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's not so much that he's shy. Uli Hesse interviewed him not too long ago and immediately noticed that it's not a notable trait. He is fairly extroverted. I just think he is more content and relaxed. A thinker first, then someone who will voice his discontent but as you said, not overly conducive to being a "leader". Someone whose early and general criticism parallel his are actually Bergkamp. Similar in many ways. Driven by their craft and creatively inclined but very much players who will always favor their instincts first and apprehensive about "conforming" too much. Wenger did manage to get the best out of Dennis but Bergkamp also speaks about how much drive and leadership there was in the rest of the team and how it allowed him to evolve and "peak". Mesut doesn't have that currently as we've repeated.

    I definitely would also like to see him get more acclaim but I am reluctant to think it will come from him and think Wenger is responsible for nurturing him via the rest of the team. Özil thrives for Germany because he has the right players around him for instance.
     
  5. Goetzil10

    Goetzil10 Member

    Real Madrid
    Germany
    Jul 1, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Content and relaxed are better ways to describe him. I guess it's part of what makes him special, that inner calmness to not be affected by others and always play his game. Zidane was like that too. Hopefully Mesut is a late bloomer in terms of leadership like Zizou.
     
  6. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    My primary criticism of Oezil is not related in any way to his offensive qualities. Those are obvious for everyone to see. The one area of his game that he needs to work on is his pressing and work off the ball when our opponents are in possession. When he lost possession leading to those goals in Liverpool, he didn't even make a half hearted attempt to chase the play and win back the ball. It was pathetic seeing him sit on the ground, throw his hands up, and pout while Liverpool raced to the other end and scored. It was made all the worse on that occasion because he was the deepest midfielder when he lost that ball.
     
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  7. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    That also happened because Wilshire abandoned his position.

    It's a criticism but for me it's such a small issue that shouldn't be such major issue at all and it's constantly exaggerated. Honestly, do these happen so frequently in a single match as to be THE difference in the outcome of a match? No but yet we act like it's the single attribute that holds him back from being something else. Something else nobody seems to be able to articulate.

    The reason he seems to polarizing is as follows. If he does indeed alter his game and tracks back more, he will limit his off the ball movement as well. In other other words, he will reduce the time on and off the ball that can be used to create space for others or anticipate possession. The very things we laud him for. If that happens, his impact will also be reduced and people will complain about him not contributing more. It's a double edged sword when asking for an alteration in his game. Because he is so ahead of everyone else in terms of creativity, teams and managers have little choice but to structure a team around him. If it doesn't happen by choice it happens subconsciously within the team and we see that in Arsenal now. If the ball doesn't go through him, Arsenal are less likely to create comprehensive chances. For his "din in form" he is still only behind Rooney in assists in the league and even against Liverpool had one of the highest passing percentages (if I remember correctly). Simply put he demands so much of the attention of a team TO BE THE CREATIVE OUTLET. To the point that if he jumps out of that to track back for instance, a major cog in the attacking wheel and identity of whatever team he is in is removed as a result. Balancing these is the most difficult task for any manager and is 100% not up to the player as so many of you claim. It will only happen if the team is balanced enough in terms of personnel which means the right structure and the right amount of individual talent. Arsenal doesn't have either of those right now and as long as that happens we won't see the Mesut everyone wants to see. Simply put; because it's not just a matter of him getting up and chasing the ball.
     
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  8. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    SirManchester; with all due respect I would expect someone as devoted to total football as you are to see that the one massive area for improvement in Oezil's game is pressing and defensive work-rate.
     
  9. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't understand your point.

    Just because I'm a fan of total football doesn't mean I can irrationally impose it on every single player. Footballers differ. First of all total football doesn't rely on physicality or athleticism but rather positioning, off the ball movement and intelligence. In this field Özil is ideal. If you're saying modern total football is reliant on athleticism, you're correct but it's not dependent on players running and tracking back all the time. It's not as if Mesut doesn't do this so the criticism becomes; he doesn't do it enough. If this is detrimental to his success as a player, it's a weak argument. Moreover if it's detrimental to the success of a team, even weaker. I remember arguments about us failing against Spain in 2010 because he didn't track back. Would him tracking back have really changed fortunes? No. These are weak arguments. Like I said, the deeper he is, the further away from goal he will be and less likely he will be able to create chances for his teammates. This is not his dilemma. It's the manager's. The further back he plays the less assists he will provide and people will complain about that. This is why there are almost no pure creators anymore and these responsibilities are distributed among the collective. Mesut is such an outlier in this case that it's almost impossible to ask him fore more and not limit his output. And if we really want that from him, he must be surrounded by equally creatively talented players like the Barca or Bayern model but that is also extremely rare. Arsenal is certainly NOT the place for him to evolve his talents in my opinion. If he he to further succeed there it will require him to double what he already is because that's what the system and team will ask of him and because those are the conditions that have been set for him.

    Also, Arsenal don't play total football.

    Like I said, I'm only downplaying this as a "flaw" because it's actually not the big problem it's made out to be. The solution is elsewhere.
     
  10. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    SirManchester you need only look at the transformation that has taken Ribery, Robben, the Spanish NT, Barcelona, Bayern, etc from talents that don't win, to the best in the world. Offensive positioning, movement, creativity are all very important, but if there are 1 or 2 players who are not involved in the pressing, who do not pull their own weight defensively, it unbalances the entire team. That was the key to Bayern's success last year, and it has been the key to Spain and Barca as well.

    Of course I am not saying that Oezil isn't a great player. What I am saying is that he isn't a complete player. He still has areas of his game that need to improve and making excuses for him is very shortsighted on your part.
     
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  11. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The problem here is you are comparing apples and oranges. Spain, Barcelona, and Bayern are exactly the teams I mentioned above that Özil could transform in because the conditions would suit and allow it. Arsenal and the Premier League is different.
     
  12. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't really care about Arsenal or the Premier League, what matters to me is the German National team and it's success. If Loew continues to play a high line with high pressing, he can't have players who do not take part in that as key players in the squad.
     
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  13. Ozilll

    Ozilll Member

    Mar 12, 2011
    Well the absence of walcott and player with his skill explains a lot why Ozil can't produces the killer passes that he's used to do. If people expect Arsenal can win the title with Giroud as the sole striker.. well keep on praying!!!

    And not to mention we transfer and injured guy to replace other injured players?? EPL is not a free title you have to spend to get it.

    I am still convinced Ozill is a big part of why ARsenal can still be top tomorrow. FFS everybody is injured the guy has no striker to feed. Ozil is a pro player but he's also a sensible person, i just hope we don't break his mood down...
    stop blaming him for every defeat.
     
  14. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's such a typically English piece of criticism to use words like "no show in big matches" or "disappears" or "doesn't hustle enough". They go hand in hand with the idea that players need to exert themselves to truly show their worth and in this case Özil's case is so much more complex than that. No wonder that when you do stumble on elaborate pieces on this issue you will see a small case made with the above language and then immediately followed by a refutal and in the end no conclusion whatsoever.
     
  15. Raumdeuter

    Raumdeuter Member+

    Jan 14, 2009
    Texas
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    http://www.marca.com/2014/02/12/en/football/international_football/1392198726.html

    German only has one assist in nine matches

    Özil's vanishing act
    [​IMG]
    Víctor Vago. London 02/12/2014
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    The 'Özil effect' is slipping away quicker than Harry Houdini. After starting his Arsenal career in style, scoring three times and setting up four goals in his first nine appearances, the German wizard has utterly flattered to deceive. Tellingly, his contribution in the last nine matches amounts to one measly assist.

    The playmaker's woeful performance in the 5-1 humiliation by Liverpool led the English media to sharpen their knives. The Daily Mail dressed the German up as Wally and asked 'Where's Özil?', adding "Arsène Wenger blasted his whole team after Arsenal's abysmal showing at Anfield but the one person who epitomised their lack of commitment was Mesut Özil. Lazy without the ball and weak when on it, he is a shadow of [himself]".

    The Mail, 60% of whose readers voted for the German to be dropped to the bench in an online poll, also claimed that Özil hasn't settled in London and is struggling for fitness owing to the packed fixture schedule.

    The Guardian also lambasted the former Real Madrid man, writing: "It is certainly hard to remember the last time he looked like a £42.5m player. The 2-0 win over Napoli in September, perhaps?" Meanwhile, Metro asked "Is Mesut Özil Arsenal's new Dennis Bergkamp or the new Andrey Arshavin?"

    Also joining in the criticism was England legend Alan Shearer, who stated: "It would seem that giving all the credit to Özil was somewhat misplaced. How often have we seen him really dominate a game? Not very often".



    Read more: Özil's vanishing act - MARCA.com (English version)
     
  16. F96

    F96 Member+

    Oct 24, 2002
    Skåne
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    I think he needs a rest, both physically and mentally. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  17. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Nov 25, 2010
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Arsene doesn't have a serious deep bench so these main players are run to the ground...

    Plus the English schedule is pretty ********ing stupid.... No rest or holiday in the winter, what do they expect????
     
  18. Goetzil10

    Goetzil10 Member

    Real Madrid
    Germany
    Jul 1, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  19. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Leave it to Whitney to follow up what has already been said time and time again and copy those who have been saying those things.
     
  20. Leinad

    Leinad Member+

    Jun 13, 2006
    Düsseldorf
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    ya no problem, he can rest in the summer. :p
     
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  21. LewanBroski

    LewanBroski Member

    Apr 10, 2014
    Pasco
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Mesut Özil is a beast but I don't like his attitude at times gives off this -meh, don't care, too lazy- vibe
     
  22. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Well he came back and was their man of the match. I think this season too much was made of him as a lazy player. Wenger overplayed him, to the point of injury. In the last month or so he was barely fit enough to play.

    Arsenal also need some re-enforcements to make the whole team click. His impact is undeniable. Just look at their success rate with him in the team and without him. It's literally night and day.
     
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  23. Ozilll

    Ozilll Member

    Mar 12, 2011
    It's a false projection , bad image. He do cares, sometimes looks can be very misleading. His reaction towards Giroud is rational, he used to play with top players in madrid, and it gets frustrating to see again and again that your top striker can't see such runs. Girous is good guy, but with him as main striker, no one should expect any big silver such as epl.
     
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  24. Dalmar

    Dalmar Member

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #899 Dalmar, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
    Ok. Ozil should be the coach too,

    I think there is a great lesson for serious football fans in Mourinho's tactical evolution against Barcelona, the most dominant team in football history. The early classicos Mesut was involved in, Mourinho had to take him out partly because an inexperienced 21 year old was battling with the likes of Xavi, Messi and Ineista and partly because Mou struggled with using him best. Fast-forward, Mourinho was able to overcome Barcelona's dominance by utilizing Ozil in two radically different ways. One where Ozil was freed from defensive duties(the Copa Del Ray semi, 2-2, where he bamboozled Abidel and marked his arrival at the greatest stage of football) and one where he was to function in highly disciplined tactical set up(Madrid's league winning match in Camp Nou, 2-1). In both tactical set ups Ozil was Brilliant, so this mambo jump about Bayern players working as a unit and being model to Ozil is at best laughable. What happened to the same team under different coach, arguably the most innovative coach on the planet, the mighty Bayern falls apart in shameful manner.

    Players can only do what the coach demands them to do.
     
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  25. Dalmar

    Dalmar Member

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid

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