Messi vs. football records Redux

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Bada Bing, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #1 Bada Bing, Sep 2, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
    Second try as the record braking continues, the old thread https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/messi-vs-football-records.1983902/

    Some major records:

    Seasonal/ Yearly

    12 Biggest winning margin in European Golden Shoe (D.Georgescu, 11 1976-77)
    12 Tied with most goals in a year for Argentine national team (G.Batistuta, 12 1998)
    14 Most goals in a UEFA Champions League season (R.Nistelrooy/L.Messi, 12 2002-03/2010-11)
    14 Tied with most goals in a UEFA Champions League/ European Cup season (J.Altafini, 14 1962-63)
    25 WR Tied with most goals in a year in international matches (V.Woodward, 25 1909)
    50 Most goals in a Spanish league season (C.Ronaldo, 40 2010-11)
    50 Most goals in a European Golden Shoe (D.Georgescu, 47 1976-77)
    73 Most goals in a Spanish club season (C.ronaldo/Messi, 53 2010-11)
    73 Most goals in a European club season (G.Müller, 67 1972-73)
    73 WR Most goals in a club season (A.Stark, 70 1924-25)
    79 WR Most goals in a year for club (G.Müller, 72 1972)
    82 WR Most goals in a club and national team season (Pelé, 75 1958)
    91 WR Most goals in a year for club and national team (G.Müller, 85 1972)

    Career

    2 Most UEFA Club Footballer/ Best Player (1997-) wins (1 several)
    3 Most European Golden Shoe (1967-) Wins (2 several)
    3 Tied with most World Soccer Player Of The Year (1982-) wins (Ronaldo, 3 -2011)
    3 Tied with most Onze d'Or (1976-) wins (Platini and Zidane, 3 -1987 and -2006)
    4 Tied with most UEFA Champions League/ European Cup top scorer (1955-) wins (G.Müller, 4 -1981)
    4 Most Ballon d'Or (1956-) wins (3 several)
    4 Tied with most goals in FIFA Club World Cup (Denilson and Aboutrika, 4 -2013 and -2011)
    10 Most goals in Spanish Supercup (Raul, 7 -2010)
    11 Most assists in El Clasico (L.Molowny, 9 -1957)
    18 Tied with most goals in El Clasico (A.Di Stefano, 18 -1964)
    29 Most Goals In Uefa Champions League knockout stage (C.Ronaldo, 26 -2013)
    318 Most career goals for Barcelona (César, 232 -1955)

    Streaks

    19 WR Most consecutive games scored (30) in a league (T.Peterek, 16 (22) 1937-38)
    19 WR First footballer ever to score consecutively against all teams in a professional league
    21 WR Most consecutive played games scored (33) in a league (T.Peterek, 16 (22) 1937-38)

    [​IMG]

    (Note, only confirmed goals counted for Bican)

    Goal Scoring Records For consecutive Club + NT seasons.

    1 Season
    82 Messi
    75 Pele
    73 Gerd Müller
    72 Romario

    2 Seasons
    151 Messi
    139 Pele
    137 Gerd Müller
    118 Romario

    3 Seasons
    208 Messi
    191 Gerd Müller
    182 Pele
    161 Romario

    4 Seasons
    256 Messi
    240 Gerd Müller
    238 Pele
    199 Romario

    5 Seasons
    297 Messi
    295 Pele
    294 Gerd Müller
    255 Romario

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Last night Messi became Spanish league all-time top scorer in away games:

    1. Messi 101
    2. H.Sanchez 99
    3. Raul 87
     
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  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Good post, but Messi still needs to be the best at the WC to chisel his name as top ten of all time.
     
  3. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    One thing that's often forgotten w/the impressive career/season goal numbers of Bill "Dixie" Dean was that he usually did not line-up/function as an "out-&-out" front-player/goal-scorer for his team(s). Dean was a bit more a withdrawn forward and often functioned as the front-line "play-maker" for both Everton & England: Dean was a "pyramid"-type centre-forward of his playing era...
     
  4. The Potter

    The Potter Member+

    Aug 26, 2004
    England
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Di Stefano's legacy is based more or less entirely on club football and he's in most top 5's. I think Messi makes the top 10 on his club career alone personally.
     
  5. Jaweirdo

    Jaweirdo Member+

    Aug 19, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I second that, I can't think of 10 players in the history of the sport I'd rank ahead of him. 5, yeah sure, but not 10. Curious to know who is in @Pipiolo 's top 10.
     
  6. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    lol ok
     
  7. United_xxx

    United_xxx Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    Thailand
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Di Stefano had no chances in the world cup while Messi will play at least in 3.5 (.5 for 2006) world cup tournaments. We will never know how Di Stefano would flare at the world cup because he never had a chance to participate but this clearly affects his status (and Cruyff's) in the all-time ranking. Messi, on the other hand, has all things: taking part in 3-4 WCs, great team mates, etc. If he could't have memorable moments in the world cup, he will be classed in the lower tier no matter how his fans excuse.
     
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  8. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The argument goes both ways, mind you. I mean: one could also say that his memorable club moments will class him in the upper tier no matter how his haters excuse. Time will tell how is he will be judged, but in an era where club football is so widely watched, it is outdated to overemphasize the World Cup's role in player's legacy. Obviously I'm not trying to discredit World Cup: but it's not the end-all decider (or even close) when it comes to legacies, be that of players in di Stefano's time or today.
     
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  9. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Di Stefano's legacy is based on a club achievement of having won 5 EC1s back-to-back and playing an important part in reaching 2 more EC1 finals. Messi (or even CRonaldo for that matter) has played in 6 (5 for CRonaldo) CL semis since 2007/08 while reaching and winning only 2 (1 for CRonaldo) finals. That's a big drop-off from Di Stefano.

    Not a discussion for this topic though, I guess.
     
  10. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    See, but you're comparing Di Stefano's Real Madrid to Messi's Barca, not Di Stefano to Messi. A player (even if the best player of the club) does not equal to the club.

    Anyway, I think it's just a bit rich to say that 2007-present Messi is "a big drop-off" from anyone's performances in same sort of time span. I mean for one, Messi's goal stats are better than Di Stefano's if we look at Messi's six seasons and Di Stefano's six seasons, and Messi also has double amount of Ballon d'Ors (fwiw).
     
  11. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It's the same with everyone, Pele has first to play in Europe or win a national league, Maradona has first to win a European Cup to be considered top 10, and so on... European Cup was bit of a joke at the beginning, it only established itself in the 60's, and even with that 3 UCL's > 5 first European Cup's.
     
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  12. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #12 Estel, Sep 18, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
    I was explaining what entailed Di Stefano's legacy at club level, causing him to be considered such a great player without ever having played in a world cup. The 5 EC1s in a row are definitely the biggest aspect of that.

    Messi has 1 Ballon d'Or and 3 FIFA Ballon d'Ors, so it is actually the other way round. Check link -
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy.html
    In any case, I am not so sure about the number of Ballon d'Ors making such a big difference to a player's legacy. After all, Puskas isn't any less of a player for never having won a Ballon d'Or, nor do Keegan's two wins suddenly place him alongside Beckenbauer and Di Stefano.

    Goal scoring wise, since 2007/08, Messi has I believe 57go/67ga at o.85 gpg in the CL vs Di Stefano's 49go/58ga at 0.84 gpg in the EC1 during his time with Real (if I look at his best 6 seasons in the EC1 like I did for Messi, those numbers become 43go/45ga at a gpg of 0.95), so I don't see any significant difference there but in fact an edge for Di Stefano when looking at each player's best 6 seasons till date. Messi in the La Liga in this period does lead Di Stefano with 194go/196ga at a gpg of 0.99 vs Di Stefano's 216go/282ga at a gpg of 0.77 (best 6 seasons with 151go/171ga at a gpg of 0.88), but then so does CRonaldo, while in the Copa Del Rey Messi's 23go/32ga at a gpg of 0.72 for his six best seasons is lower than Di Stefano's 39go/50ga at a gpg of 0.78 during his time playing for Real. (My apologies in advance if any of this is found to be incorrect as these numbers were pulled out in a hurry)

    Again, I don't think either of this is relevant to the topic and I am perfectly ok if you disagree, since it is quite possible that you would believe that Di Stefano's era was not as competitive as the current one.
     
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  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    My top ten:

    Maradona, Pele, Moreno, Puskas, DiStefano, Cruyff, Garrincha, Eusebio, Schiaffino, the tenth spot varies depending on the week/month :)

    WC remains the sports' greatest trophy, bigger than CL by a considerable margin. If Messi was from Northern Ireland or even Portugal, it shouldn't be held against him too harshly if he never wins the WC, but he plays for Argentina, one of the traditional greats in football alongside a fantastic generation of players. No excuses if he does not win it after likely four tries. His club career puts him in the very top tier of all time greats (top 20 for sure) but it won't be enough for a default top ten ranking.

    Ridiculous, Pele did not have to play in Europe to establish his legacy.
     
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  14. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    No one is saying he isn't a great player. I mean that's pretty elementary stuff.

    Well, yeah, Messi only has one Ballon d'Or... but I think when people's Ballon d'Ors are counted, FIFA Ballon d'Ors can be included. Up to opinion, of course. Anyway, I agree that Ballon d'Ors only matter so much (hence the "fwiw" in my post).

    In six seasons:
    Messi: from 2007-8 to 2012-3 = 287 goals in 309 matches. Makes 0,93 goals per match.
    di Stefano: from 1953-4 to 1958-9 = 194 goals in 227 matches. Makes 0,85 goals per match.

    This includes all official competitions.

    As for competitiveness in different eras: while I do believe the modern era can fairly be said to be more competitive, I do not agree with Bada Bing's opinion that the competition in the fifties was "a joke". That said, I usually take a cautios approach when making radical statements in these issues, as it's just so difficult to prove anything. Different eras are different eras.
     
  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    DiStefano shared the scoring function with Puskas, a titan in his own right. Messi only when Ronaldinho was there for 05-06 and 06-07 had to share the spotlight, since then it's been his team.
     
  16. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    So he established it with national team who won World Cup even without him? You arguments are without any logic.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Other than records boosted by the unique properties of this era, in what way has Messi so far (aged 26) accomplished more than a Puskas, Eusebio or Van Basten? I.e. the trophies and big games.
     
  18. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Ever heard of Santos?
     
  19. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah, won bunch of regional leagues and one full Libertadores, and one starting from semi-finals. Ever heard of Barcelona?
     
  20. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Absolutely the World Cup is the biggest thing, never disagreed. But I think the formation of players' legacies is way more complicated than you make it. You could personally exclude him from your top ten, but it's not like you decide the world's opinion. Of course, Messi is only 26 and has a lot of years left, so we'll see about his legacy later, World Cup titles or not.
     
  21. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Barcelona is not "Messi's team" as he is one great player among other great players, mind you.
     
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  22. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Schiaffino ahead of Zico, Platini and Beckenbauer?
     
  23. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Of course I've heard of them, it's why I place Messi as top 20. Pele won with both Santos and Brazil, it's true that Brazil won without him in WC62, one of the major points why many rank Maradona ahead of him. Still, on achievements alone at both club and NT level, Pele must be top five - plus his physical dominance and completeall-around skills propels him to one of the two greatest of all times.

    I never said my list is the ultimate one to follow, you are being churlish and it is an unnecesary comment. This is a forum for regular fans to air out their views after all.

    Of course a player's legacy consists of a combination of achievements, talent and context - but if Messi fails to have a great WC performance it must bring down his overall status.

    Well, Schiaffino led his team to a WC win in the greatest upset in football history. Zico and Platini with loaded teams could not win it, or even reach the final.

    As for Beckenbauer, I often place him as top seven as a concession to the world's opinion. Stil, I am reluctant to place a defensive player in a top ten of all time, my personal standard is playmakers, strikers and wingers, the creative forces, must get precedence. For that matter, only Beckenbauer and Yashin would feature in my own top 25 - 30 players of all time.
     
  24. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    Sir Bobby Charlton is another example of this: people that don't want to see him rated higher in A-T lists will say that he should've won another WC or European Cup. Yet they fail to take into account the DIFFERENT competitions that he performed in where club or international silverware was won and it helped him win a variety of individual "gongs"...

    The anti-Charlton brigade also fails to acknowledge the effect that the '58 "MAD" had on Charlton as an individual footballer and his club (Man United) AND his national team (England) as well IMO...
     
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  25. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Why is it a major point against Pele? Argentina also won World Cup just prior Maradona, and then failed with him. Your arguments don't have any logic, they are like normal fan trying to base opinion who he likes and don't like.
     

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