Do you think Ronaldo had been better than Messi nowaday without injuries? In other cases(alcohol,sex,party...),Ronaldinho is,too
like I said it's hard to "guess" or Speculate but fact said" at early (same) age R9 was indeed better - however, that did not necessary drive into conclusion that R9 would be better (if no injury) from 22-28- potentially? yes. definitely? probably not Messi is a rare talent (just like R9 in different style) as the last two most potential players to catch up Pele and Maradona! 1- If being built in a good supporting team around? Messi is better (a bit) 2- If independent to a team (any team) R9 was better a bit ... So my choice: If at a club base with 50+ games playing over a season, Messi would be a better choice If in a short tournament (like WC/Euro/Copa ) R9 would be a betetr choice. =============================================== Ronaldinho was also an "extremely talented" but his problem is to use his talent on the picth! Much less consistent/reliable than Messi, and much less effective than R9 in big/short touranments
It was 100% FACT! nothing to exaggerated! Your point was right but it was like Talking after the fact! Now let's roll back to the situation at that time! 1- SerieA 98: it was all about Inter vs Juve. If Inter did NOT lose that game (or could have won?) they would have all the energy to fight in last 4 games to win the title. But after that "controvery lost" they felt Juve got the advantage over them with no more hope 2- UCL2003: Real came to SF with 2-1 win at home (slim advantage) Juve scored 2 goals at home, and Real introduced Ronaldo (still not fit) and he immediately WON THE PK for the team (2goals behind now that Juve had 1 goal away advantage) Now if Figo scored that PK that would be a pricey AWAY goal and result 3-3 tied. So Zidane scored at 89mins would be the winner by "AWAY goal" rule regardless the result would be 4-4, OK? Hence in that sense R9 was key player to lead Real from R16, QF to SF into final = FACT And that game R9 was on bench (not fit until Juve scored 2-0) and he did win the pricey PK, and imagine if he was fit to play from the beginning?
gerd müller was recalled a potentional gamewinning goal in the first ec final against athletico 1974.....his crime , a phantom foul...there was olso a questionable action against him in the penalty box without penalty call in the first game..however athletico was denid a penalty too, so its evened out....athletio was denid a penalty in the replay match i must point out.... however if we analyze the situation of both teams (plus gladbach where fought for the german championship against bayern).. in this days so we see this.... bayern munich games : 11.may 1974 /week 33)....bayern-offenbach (must win game, bayern with a 1 point lead against gladbach)) 15.may 1974 bayern-athletico madrid ,ec final 17.may 1974 bayern-athletico madrid ec final (possible replay match) 18.may 1974 / week 34 )gladbach-bayern (last game and possible keymatch for the bundesleaque title) athletico madrid games: 5 .may 1974 la liga game ,week 33 15.may 1974 athletico madrid-bayern , ec final 17.may 1974 athletico madrid-bayrn, ec final (possible replay match ) 20-may-1974 athletico-oviedo , la liga game week 34 gladbach games : 11. may 1974 /week 33....düsseldorf-gladbach (must win game, bayern with a 1 point lead) 18.may 1974 /week 34 ...possible showdown for the bundesliga title ..6 day rest so you see how horrible the situation it was for munich pre offenbach game .... bayern has asked the leaders of gladbach to play the last game later than 18 may..- (the reason a possible replay match with athletico, may 17)..gladbachs response , its not possible.. athletico has dated back his game against oviedo from 11 may to 20 may (barca allready champion)....athletico with a 9 day rest , bayern with a 3 day rest and must win game against offenbach prior .... bayern won with a late 1:0 gamewinner and out of nothing goal from gerd müller against offenbach--- gladbach has wasted his chance in düsseldorf, did loose 1:0, however a draw or a win was possible for gladbach...heynckes wasnt succesful with a penalty, gladbach unlucky has hit post and bar,wasted 2 1:1 actions against keeper, the last in minute 85 of the game (rupp, what a waste of chance).... the first ec game against athletico has ended 1:1 , the ec replay match bayern won 4:0, a game where has ended 22:00 o,clock in the evening 17 may....17 or 18 hours later (bayern is travelled from brüssel to gladbach with the bus) bayern has played in gladbach the last bundesliga game and did loose 0:5....müller was substituded in minute 45 , no information why ...nearly loosing the topscorer title against heynckes ..heynckes with 2 goals in this game (against a dead tired bayern team) tied the topscorer title with gerd müller (both 30 goals) if gladbach dont waste his chances against düsseldorf and gerd müller dont score the 1:0 gamewinning goal against offebach, no bundesliga title for bayern munich under the circumstances of only few hours rest between the replay ec final and gladbach game away...... you pointed out how bad the situation for barca was a while ago, no anallyze of bayern munichs situation......romario was substituded in minute 75 against valencia and barca still scored 2 goals to seal the win 5:2...stoitchkow, 2 goals, 1 assist the offensive keyplayer ......, romario with 1 goal,laudrup with 1 goal,1 assist
I am confused with the last paragraph of your post. Either I understood your comment wrong, or perhaps you've mistaken a match that never happened. I have searched for that alleged Barca vs Valencia 5:2 in which Romario was substituted at minute 75, as you have pointed in your comment above. But I just can't seem to find it. According to season 93/94 and 94/95 (in which Romario played for Barca) a purported match Barca vs Valencia that ended 5:2 never took place. According to historical data the only match between Barca vs Valencia that ever ended 5:2 was season 84/85 on the exact date 3/3/1985. There are no other encounter between these two Clubs history in which the scoring chart ended 5:2. Let alone seasons in which Romario played at such Clubs in the 90's. Barca faced Valencia only 3 times in La Liga season 93/94. First match ended 0-0, the second match ended 4-0 to Barca in which Stoichkov scored 1, Koeman scored PK (foul on Romario) , Bakero scored 2 goals. The third match between them ended 3-1 with Stoichkov 1 goal and Begiristain 2 goals. Then in season 94/95 they faced each other 6 times of which 2 encounters were friendlies. And not one match ended 5:2 either. So i do not know in which match Stoichkov was the "offensive key player" (like you claimed) in any encounter between these two Club when Romario played at such Club. Could you give reference of this match, please? Thanks.
James you are pushing it again for your beloved R9! If we are talking about UCL 02/03 then Ronaldo was not the only key player in QF, SF legs. Raul and Roberto Carlos were equally important. So stop pushing for R9! UCl 2003 stats: Quarter-finals Real Madrid vs ManUnited agg 6-5 (1st leg 3-1, ) Figo 12', Raul 28' 48', Van Nistelrooy 52' (2nd leg 3-4) Ronaldo 12' 50' 59', Van Nistelrooy 43', Helguera 52', Beckham 71' 85' As you can see Raul was as crucial as Ronaldo in QF! While you are make it seem as if Ronaldo was the only important player in QF. When Raul scored 2 clutch goals in 1st leg of QF. Give Raul his share of the cake and stop stealing everything to R9 credit. Stop stealing credits James. This is a bad nasty habit of yours. I have told you many times before. But you do not seem to care. Semi-finals Real Madrid vs Juventus agg 3-4 (1st leg 2-1) Ronaldo 23', Roberto Carlos 73', Trezeguet 45' (2nd leg 3-1) Trezeguet 12', Del Piero 43', Nedved 73', Zidane89' As you can see Ronaldo was not the most important player in 1st leg since it was Roberto Carlos who'd scored the winning goal. This is what @celito meant 2 years ago when he said you seem to be pushing it! @Estel
I do not care who said what Reality and FACT said Ronaldo scored winner to lead Real in to QF (only header vs Locomotiv) Ronaldo's hat trick were winner to lead Real passed ManU 6-5 into SF Ronaldo scored 1 in 1st leg, made a PK in 2nd leg(pricey away goal) that FIGO blew in SF (very crucial to Real to be in Final) So out of his 6goals (all in last 5games KOS), 3goals were winners from 2nd Group, QF and a close PK (crucial) for real to win SF Now if one count only minutes goal R9 was so impressive 6goals in less than 400mins playing in KOs (minus some injury time)
So are you in denial of Raul 2 goals which led Real to 1st leg victory in QF? Wake up and smell the coffee! Stop pushing it!
and you are cluelessw as always Raul always scored in UCL easy games against weak team R9 was bi games players in UCL2003 period Like you always praise on Romario as UCL topscorer, but cluelessly knowing he ain't scoring in any QF to final UCL stop hating ....
That is not the question and is totally off topic. What has Romario got to do with this, are you trolling on me now? I ask you once more, why do you give all credits to Ronaldo, when Raul was key player in 1st leg of QF and Roberto Carlos was also key player in 1st leg SF? Stop dodging questions and stop going off on a tangent to avoid answering a simple and honest question. Raul scored 2 clutch goals in 1st leg when in the same match Ronaldo was subbed at minute 84! Ronaldo had no part in in winning 1st leg QF vs ManUnited. He gave a great performance in 2nd leg and was clearly the MoM in that leg. But it was Raul who was the match winning key player in 1st leg should be given credit for it. Then in SF, it was Roberto Carlos who scored the match winning goal vs Juventus, he too should be given credit for it. Without Roberto Carlos Real would have not pass through to 2nd leg of SF. Stop stealing other players achievements to make your beloved R9 look better then he was. Raul, Roberto Carlos were equally important as Ronaldo in QF and SF. Ronaldo was important, but so were Raul and Roberto Carlos. Stop pushing it! FACT SAID!
it was sevilla and not valencia..so my bad if i mentioned the wrong club in this keygame. (its was a more a clubtypo error from me)..... .....however.. if you check the last and very important la liga winning game of the season 1993/94 for barca ..this is the game i have talked..!!!..you find out the goalscores 5:2 against sevilla ,stoitchkow the first 2 goals for barca + 1 assist for laudrups 4:2...romario has scored the 3:2 gamewinner (assist laudrup)..romario substituted in minute 75 with goalscores 3:2 for barca at this time, laudrup has scored the 4:2 in minute 76 i think.......
That explains the mystery of the illusive match that took me a whole hour trying to find it to no avail. No it makes sense. that is what I thought when I saw 5:2. Which reminded me of Sevilla vs Barca last match of the season. Stoichkov was key player in that match. Laudrup was also crucial with his passes and goal. Then Romario scored that goal to keep Barca ahead of Deportivo Coruna (Bebeto PK miss) and then Bakero scored the last goals to close the season and win the 4th La Iiga title in a row. So yes, you are right! Stoichkov was the most valuable player of that last match vs Sevilla.
@621380 now that I have your attention. Would you read posts #1178 #1181 #1182 #1183 #1184 #1185 above and give me your honest insights in this issue. According to @JamesBH11 , as usual is the case, he gives all credits and merits to R9 for Real Madrid success in QF, SF of 2003 UCL, and won't acknowledge the contributions (which are equally important) made by Raul, Roberto Carlos in those matches. James is the type of fan that will push it further and farther for his beloved R9 to look better and flawless then he actually was. When things go according to plan, he will only give credits to R9 for his Club victories, but when his Club takes defeat then James will always blame it on others, or say "it was because R9 injuries" etc. Now, any honest and objective observer would watch 2003 UCL Real Madrid QF and SF 1st and 2nd leg matches and say "R9 was key there but so was Raul and Roberto Carlos". This is the kind of answer I would expect from a serious observer with no agenda. But Jamesbh11, as always is the case has to give all merits to his idol R9 and dismiss any contributions made by other players. He's done that with Romario, Rivaldo, Raul, he even dismissed NT02 manager Scolari's own public statement in which he said Rivaldo was his most valuable player during the whole WC02, while he acknowledged R9 for his important goals. But James had to post comments bashing Scolari. I mean, James is the only fan I know of who think he knows more about NT02 than the actualy manager/coach of NT02. It's like arguing with Cruyff and disagreeing with him on how to perform the Cruyff turn, or like arguing with Rivelino on how to do "elastico" or having a sick patient arguing with medical doctors on how to write prescription for medicine, or having a little man on the street arguing with a lawyer about how to interpret the law. This is the finest definition of "delusional arrogance".
Raul was outstanding in the first leg and was consensus man of the match, also Figo was excellent. Ronaldo was key in the return leg with his goals.
That is true. He refused to take the PK even though he was the main PK taker of Deportivo. That PK miss cost Deportivo the title.
That is true But of course @JamesBH11 has to ignore the importance of the other players since only his beloved idol R9 warrants all merits. Figo scores opening goal and Raul scores the 2 winning goals in 1st leg of QF vs United (Raul MoM) Ronaldo scores 3 clutch goals in 2nd leg vs United (clearly MoM) Ronaldo scores opening goal and Roberto Carlos scores the winning goal in 1 leg vs Juventus (Roberto key player!) So objective conclusion is that Raul and Ronaldo share an equal contribution on Real's success in QF. While Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo share an equal contribution on Real's in SF. But James has to ignore Raul, Roberto Carlos and Figo, and then give all merits to R9 alone! Typically James showing his R9 agenda.
First leg was only 45mins in a normal game 2nd leg is the deciding game and R9 shone best (in galatccos 2003) period = win goal 2nd group, win goals QF and close win (pk) goal in SF (if He or Zidane did the PK instead of Figo)
Wrong ... I said Raul was always very good in UCL. Carlos was good but not great like his 2002 UCL and same with Zidane Figo was just ok the season 2003 (started declining big time) in particular UCL2003 (the only season) that R9 shone betetr (2004 and 05 were disaster) ========================================== In case you guys did not watch the games In first leg UCL SF, adfter R9 score 1 goal, Iuliano gave a hard tackle to kick R9 off the tournament in 50's min. So he was on bench in 2nd leg. In all SF 2 legs games: R9 scored 1 created 1 PK in just under 90mins (52mins 1st leg and then 30+mins off from bench in 2nd leg)
That is not what you said earlier. You said that Raul could only play good against easy opponents in early stage of UCL (groups etc.). Do not change your statement now. I am shocked to see you give some negative comments on R9 performance. I did not see this one coming from you. Shocked/surprised but pleased with your honesty nonetheless. It must be the first time ever you acknowledge a weakness in R9 overall. After all, like many other greats, R9 also had many flaws. I only hoped you did this (honesty) more often. I am sure peers would take your post more seriously if you did. I did watch the full games and I am sure @Pipiolo also did. And yes, like you said, he was benched in 2nd leg of QF. That is true. Having said that, both @Pipiolo and I have said many times before that we do acknowledge R9 UCL2003 performance to be a fantastic one. We never said he did not perform well. I guess you are being oversensitive and quickly take a defensive stand as soon as someone even mentions R9 name in a post. If you had read our post more carefully you would have seen that we have never ever diminished R9 as a great player. We only said that there are other players who have done as great as he did, not less. But because of your deep affection and admiration for all things R9, you seem to take our comments as an offense, while that was not our intention. Like I said before for more then 2 years now. R9 was a great striker, I do acknowledge his great game. But I think his game was over-hyped a bit by his fans and I am not convinced that he was as great as most of his fans claim him to be, and this comes from someone who has seen 95% of all his career games. R9 fans (incl. you) push it to make R9 look like he belonged to the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. While he actually belongs in the class of the likes of Romario, Rivaldo, Baggio, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cristano Ronaldo and Messi. And not above them, but right in the middle of them. Only R9 fans obviously are the ones pushing him further, and they have been sometimes successful at doing this because they are among the largest fans group in football today. R9 game was very individualistically sensational and therefore very marketable, which is why he has such a large fan community to influence the media. You may not like this. But this is the same thing you criticize of Cristiano and Messi don't you? Like Cristiano, R9 was also a great publicity player. Which is what I believe had such a impact on his image and reputation. Great on the pitch but even greater off the pitch. I hope you understand now.
I did not push any thing He was as great as where he is - many pros rated him as greatest striker ever in history ... Last bold wrong and so wrong ... CR7 was a handsomeboy, white and nice a la Bekham = great image for publicity R9 was ugly, bucked tooth (not a talkative person) ... he earned his fame for his talent from 96-98- never seen since last Maradona in ball control and dribble. Like I proved a while back NIKE only contracted R9 when he was already famous WPOY in 1997 - just before WC1998 - R9 was wearing PUMA at PSV and ADIDAS at Barca
The same pros who rate Messi as greatest ever in history today, which you openly disagreed with. Do you see the hypocrisy now? While Cristiano may have been a handsome boy and still is today, while he was at it, he scored more goals and won more top scoring titles then R9 ever did! Handsome boy? Perhaps yes. But still he lifted more trophies (team and individual then R9). The only category in which R9 is clearly the better is with international (NT) competitions e.g. Copa, WC etc. In which CR7 sucks big time. But you may call Cristiano a handsome boy and I wont oppose it, but he was and still is a handsome boy with greater Club career then R9. Let's be honest. You are so wrong there top. R9 was wearing Nike boots at PSV (Since 1993) and Kappa at Barca. Shall I post (again) the pictures which you turned the blind eyes to and pretended not existence. Denial. Disproof? You didn't proof shit James. How did you proof it wrong when you refused to even watch the documentary nor read Pucks honest and extensive translations of Nike's president (let me repeat Ronaldo R9 own bosses) and PSV managers on on of the most respected/reputable Dutch national TV and told the whole story behind R9 first European contract? How on Earth did you disprove it? Sounds like you do not even know what the meaning of "proof" is. (neither the meaning of FACT) cause you are the only poster on BS who use these words at will and in the wrong context. Admit James. You are in denial. That is all that happened here. Denial! And on your claims about wearing Puma and Adidas, you are wrong again! Ronaldo wearing Nike PSV jersey. Ronaldo wearing Kappa Barca jersey.
Yes they were (close) with Messi has the talent and "potential" to be on par with Pele/Maradona *just like R9 in 96-98 - but Messi did FAIL to make it ... (at least R9 did great in WC and COpa) I can agree Messi + 15 Barca worldclass players (09-13)= among the best ever (TOP5) by STATS but he never reached Pele/Maradona level. (leading a small team to great) I do not care any documents! Fact said NIKE did get the contract by end of 1997 season before the WC98
Ronaldo wore Nike shoes since 1993. James the more I read your claims of FACT the more I realize you do not know shit about your own idol. Nike president said on TV "i signed Ronaldo in 1995" FACT! So you deny Nike own president about when and where he signed R9? Are you mad?
where you got that nonfactual thing? in your dream? I even showed the Puma shoes with pictures a while back OK? Were you really a "netherlandais? If so you should know well PSV club (Romario was also wearing same shoes as Ronaldo ) I will be mad if you keep on talking of the nonfactual things = nonesense