Matchday 5, Watford vs. The Arsenal, 15 September 2019

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by ArsenalJake, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which I posited when asked why Sokratis hasn't had too many huge gaffes --- at least prior to Sunday.

     
  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Lulz has always been very physical, hotheaded and prone to racing out of position - see his most famous examples vs Germany 2014

    I am sure @nicephoras can explain how Luiz was used during his excellent season under Conte

    He made the team of the season that year
     
  3. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Maric is the author of this spielverlagerung article criticizing Wenger that Jitty loved to quote a few years back. He's regarded as a rising star and was an assistant at Salzburg and is now at Gladbach. Only a matter of time before he's a manager somewhere.
     
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I think knowing what is wrong with Arsenal is not the hard part.

    Getting the players to actually deliver on the pitch is difficult.

    Pep Confidential is fascinating in terms of players who did not even know how to play zonally (e.g. Boateng). He played for 2 big pro clubs without learning properly and just played instinctively.

    Lahm on the other hand was a player who "got it" in terms of Pep-ball straight away. Others were somewhat obstructive later on.
     
  5. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    IIRC Maric was also like, "HOLY SHIT THEIR POSSESSION PLAY IS GOOD" and "I've made lots of criticisms and this stuff probably wouldn't matter if everyone wasn't hurt".
     
  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    He complained a lot that the midfielders didn't fit together as a group, and despite having very good players, the spacing was bad.

    It is kind of amazing how long we have spoken about this since the high point of 2013. Of course this is all about the last 5%. The difference between finishing 1st or 4th (in those days)

    https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/11/16/wengers-problems-and-arsenals-long-term-crisis/

    Compactness problems and weak transition play

    A particularly serious problem for Arsenal, particularly on the international stage, is their lack of compactness in their work against the ball. They especially lack horizontal compactness on ball-oriented shifts to the wings, where they don’t pressure the ball-carrier as much. The lack of compactness prevents them covering the attacking winger and full-back, as the central players must protect the middle, while the far-side players are usually far away from the ball. As a result, the central players can not go after the ball-carrier and support the wide players which leads to a low rate of success.

    The distances in the center of the field are also greater than they would be if the far players indented. This allows the opponent to either combine through these gaps more successfully or switch sides and play forward into the open spaces and circulate the ball with less pressure. Their vertical compactness is also often poor. At times they have up to twenty meters distance between their lines; in addition to reduced intensity and access when pressing this causes problems after they win the ball. Fast counters are practically impossible because the players are too far apart. By the time a passing option is found and the ball is passed, the opponent can, with good gegenpressing, as BVB and Bayern have repeatedly demonstrated against Arsenal in the past three years, quickly prevent counter attack chances. But it’s not only in these situations that the distances for Arsenal are suboptimal.

    Inadequate distances and structures in build-up

    In their build-up play, the distances between the players as well as their fields of view and passing options are often poorly organized. The six often stands too close to the center back, without really dropping between them; even if he does, the center backs don’t fan out wide enough, so they don’t occupy space optimally. The opponent can more easily defend as there are fewer passing angles and opportunities available and the other Arsenal players have a harder time getting open. The fullbacks cannot advance further forward, the wingers must then give more width or (if indented) they are effectively taken out of the game. The eights or the two sixes and the ten (depending on the shape and the roles in midfield) must continuously drop further back to offer themselves as options for the center backs and six.

    The zones on the pitch are not properly occupied. The opponent must only defend certain zones and pass patterns to prevent Arsenal advancing into dangerous areas; although Arsenal may still dominate against weaker and less compact opposition via their individual quality and their high quality short passes, their weak layout and the instability of their connections to one another show against intense pressing teams. Another notable difference is that in these games, the offensive players – especially Mesut Özil – displayed poor performances and barely existing run routes. The reason for this is often inadequate positions and responsibilities.

    Mediocre flexibility and simplistic adjustments The common overload of the middle by an indenting winger and the diagonal runs of other wingers is often practiced by different types of players and against a variety of opponents. Basic tactical patterns seem to be determined by the player’s own repertoire, planned and trained away from the squad before the season starts to be accessed constantly later on. Real changes apparently only happen if Wenger has injured one of his players again, and not for tactical reasons; or because of simple strategic motives such as playing a stronger defensive player in place of a more attacking player against better teams. But major changes are quite rare compared to the likes of Mourinho, Guardiola, and Klopp.

    They not only change formations, but also the pressing processes, the build-up structures, specifically focused roles, the movement patterns in individual zones, etc, etc. The adjustment to the opponent remains in the foreground and forms the basis for the plan for the next game. Wenger does not exhibit this level of flexibility and adjustment. He has been criticized not only by fans but even by individual colleagues and experts. Among the most outspoken being “Big Sam” Allardyce, the manager of West Ham United::

    “There are two types of coaches. There’s coaches like me who weigh up the opposition and ask the team to adjust. Fergie was similar. Jose [Mourinho] is similar. Then there’s Arsene, who won’t adjust.(…) Their philosophy is different to ours. Ours is more about who are we playing against. Their philosophy is more, ‘We always play this way’, and they won’t change, they carry doing on the same thing. That’s why you can beat them.“

    While this is an exaggeration, as Wenger does adjust some tactical stuff and varies the basic guidelines of certain strategic points (e.g. the height of the pressing), it definitely represents a problem.​
     
  7. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    #207 wanye_stirrear, Sep 18, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
    If I could revamp the team, I would get rid of wingbacks. I think they are responsible for a lot of the spacing issues we have, and I don't really think they add a whole lot to the attack. They work well for possession, but we get killed when we lose the ball too often.

    However, the team seems to be set up for them, so we are going to continue to struggle to find the balance between having players in the middle who are good enough defensively to provide some balance and becoming too defensive in the midfield without having the players there who actually can mount an attack.

    I don't think Arsenal ever truly figured out how to play with them over the last decade.
     
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Or just play with one wingback not 2

    e.g. Kola can't even defend - that is truly not cool
     
  9. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    I don't know what to make of him. He seems like he should be useful, and sometimes, he is. But often, he is redundant.
     
  10. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Full backs are the best wife pmayers in the game

    We need them because inside forwards kill wingers in terms of attacking output

    Our team would be good with tierney and bellerin and then a competent holding midfielder able to drop between cbs a la luiz

    This is why I mentioned him in this role. I would much rather find a great holding player but there are not many around as they are a precious commodity
     
  11. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    I question the wisdom of setting up a team that requires such a rare commodity to work. We have been looking for that perfect defensive, holding midfielder for how long now? About ten years?
     
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  12. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I initially thought you were about to say something about Wayne Bridge, but I couldn't figure out what.
     
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  13. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Wingers are out of fashion

    Wing backs offer overloads and are great assets

    If your team is actually set up properly
     
  14. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Simi
    Also I once played for a team the conceded 15 straight goals by balls played in behind a wingback caught in transition. The next season the coach dropped the 3 CBs, found the three fastest CBs I had ever seen, and me from wide forward to an 8 to solve the problem. I doubt we have the money to do something so drastic.
     
  15. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    I once watched a soccer team do this for about three or four years straight...
    ...you did too.
     
  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    It's interesting that Barca were so criticised back in 2009-11 for "passing the ball into the net" whereas now it is generally accepted that the way to create big chances is on pullbacks
     
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  17. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Arsenal were criticized for it before that, during that, and a couple of years after.
     
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  18. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Bit different

    Look at marcelo at real and Liverpool’s
    Full backs

    They were employed in the correct way in systems that catered for them
     
  19. Shen-O

    Shen-O Member+

    United States
    Jul 26, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thats because wide men today suck, rare to see someone playing a smart creative pass, they’re all wanna be Robben’s.
     
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  20. Shen-O

    Shen-O Member+

    United States
    Jul 26, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They did it better than us. Tighter, more intricate triangles and runners into the box, either by a CM or FB. Arsenal would just stand outside the area, with nobody making any runs, all of them just waiting to recycle the ball. We hardly created that pullback.
     
  21. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    We only had pace out wide with Theo for years

    Arshavin cut inside and wasn’t quick and our fullbacks were awful crossers in sagna and clichy

    Hleb was good at a pull back if wide but he and rosicky were more central than wingers

    That 08 side was strong but could’ve done with some more pace
     
  22. Shen-O

    Shen-O Member+

    United States
    Jul 26, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its not about pace, its the idea. And Walcott offered nothing besides pace really. He just didn’t have that much game IQ.

    Even central players should have no problem making a run when the box is crowded. Either that or someone needs to beat his man 1vs1 to create an opening, which we wouldn’t. We’d have anywhere from 4-6 players hanging out on the edge of the box. Thats when they really criticized us for trying to walk it in.
     
  23. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    City up 5-0 against Watford after 17 minutes.

    If you ever needed a reminder of how far off the top quality of the league we are, here you go.
     

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