We didn’t try the opposite at all. We panicked after 2 games (the gigantic hole), hired an idiot coach who removed many players from the pool while adding lesser players of Villafana, Nagbe, and Acosta, treated the process with a 15+ year old cautious strategy of win at home and tie on the road, and then stuck with his first choice players for the final game, instead of rotating players as he had successfully done. We should respect our lesser Concacaf opponents, but should be looking to bury them like we do at home instead whining about the conditions and playing for wins on the road. I’m not ignoring anything. The differences in talents from our 2002 team to the recent cycle isn’t materially different. The reality now is not that similar than it was before the Hex. We should qualify comfortably, even if we get tripped up and we need to play well and have some luck to get out of the group. The people who acted like we should always get out of our group and that anything less than a QF/SF run were delusional and didn’t understand our talent or the rest of the worlds. On top of that, as I stated before quality and quantity of our top players began to improve with players who will be 26 in 2021 for qualifying.
yes it was just stream of consciousness rambling, sorry..... basically i just think that whoever has been picking the lineups/rosters....pretty much over my whole lifetime of watching the USMNT hasnt been up to the task. whether JK, Sarachan, Arena, Bradley (he was probably the best...but i still had beef with him too).....etc.....sampson milutinovic (hard to fault him though)....etc..... and that messing up a few roster spots (or more) on basically every roster has dramatic consequences over time. And I realize I'm all over the place.....but there are just so many things wrong with the USMNT that it is hard to focus on just one. I think the MLS players are important to the national team even if they have never left MLS...but, to this point, I havent seen many MLSers who have fully maximized their potential on the USMNT without leaving MLS. it's just a fact, unfortunately.
Don’t forget LD spent over a year in Germany playing almost 30 games in the 3rd and 5th division before coming to MLS and played a significant amount of games a year for the USMNT from 20 yo on.
Of course, I never said anything in Europe is better. Specifically, I said the Champions League teams from the secondary European leagues are of a higher quality than MLS teams. Klestjan is a DP player, been an MVP finalist and once moved up to CAM, has dominated the Most Assist category. He has 16 Goals and 51 Assists since moving to MLS from Anderlecht. For comparison, MB90 has 6 Goals and 13 Assists in the same time period. Diego Valeri has 26 assists over the same period and Piatti has 20 assists. He has by far dominated the Assist category in MLS since coming from Anderlecht. He wasn't even starting for Anderlecht anymore when he made the move and was never good enough to play the #10. So, a guy on the bench at Anderlecht, has come to MLS at 29, and been basically one of the best #10s in the league. But the quality of the two clubs is about equal...
Bradley might have been the best because he had it the easiest. Since you couldn't make big money in MLS, unless your name rhymed with Flonovan, you had to go to Europe to make money. Bradley basically had a starting 11 based in Europe during 2009-2010.
All three of the players that you are comparing to Bradley are good players. I hope that you realize all three of those players play a entirely different position than Bradley. They are all attacking midfielders while Bradley is a defensive midfielder than seldom goes forward. Just look at bradleys usmnt stats before he became a 6.
And I would go on to say that the issue of quality is clouded by the "more quantity" of talent available which some confuse with "more quality". Actually, having more talent (not necessarily more quality, just more quantity) makes life more difficult. Agendas creep in, petty corruptions. Look at our Euro team at the moment. It pretty much writes itself because you have al limited quantity of players in the top leagues. You know Yedlin, Brooks, Pulisic, McKennie, Hamid, Miazga, Williams, are pretty much automatic, probably Parks too at this stage, so that just leaves the issue of adding a couple of strikers and a left back - the latter would likely be Chandler or Johnson whichever is in best form. That used to be how we chose the national team in general back in 2002. We knew who the best keeper was, Donovan would go, etc. etc. right down the line. Nowadays when we look at MLS all the petty corruptions seep into the process of selecting the team. Nagbe was an automatic when he got a passport and his stats at cam over the previous year were pooh-poohed because we all knew that 'didn't represent the Nagbe we all know he could be". Acosta was hailed as the cmid for the next decade - "get used to it", they said in the media. And when he didn't perform it didn't matter because there was time, you could see the talent, he's young, blah, blah, anything other than a cold, calculated look at what should be done to sort out who really was the right man for the team. The same failed process is taking hold now. We see people criticizing Roldan's performance but his partner in mid was Adams who was pulled at the half and put back in dmid for the second half. How much evaluation really means anything if the cam who we are told was the focus point of the camp cant play cam and says after the game it really isn't his position and he's more used to playing with guys like Kellyn Acosta? I thought we learned something from the Portugal game but as usual we didn't take those lessons and carry them over to the next game. We knew Adams was 18 and had a long ways to go in learning the game so why stick him smack in the middle of the pitch for the MLS Jan camp game 2 months later when we are trying to evaluate talent of the other 10 players? Then there is the question of the quantity left on the bench: Ramirez, Lima and Delgado. Our shortage overall for the team is striker. We have none in Europe at this time as we wait to see how Sargent pans out. Our second shortage is the very thing we missed in the 2017 failure : a guy to pass thru midfield and connect defense to offense. So why are Delgado and Ramirez getting zero minutes and when is the next opportunity to see these two, anyway? Too weird for me.
We can't know how Sacha would have performed in MLS had he never gone to Europe. That's a fact. My hypothesis is that when you play in the leagues below the Top 5, how you do is comparable to how an equivalent player does in MLS, because in those leagues teams below the top two or three are MLS quality. Kljestan has good numbers with the Bulls but let's not be naive: his role changed when he came back home. With Anderlecht he had been a CM with a lot of defensive responsibilities. The rise of Tielemans and the arrival of the Ghanaian LM, Acheampong, younger guys (and the Belgians prefer younger guys) spelled the end not only of his role as a starter, but of the system where they had two CMs with defensive duties. In the NYRB, Sacha was the playmaker. That's why his numbers spiked: his role went from covering the runs to actually making the crucial passes.
The most common result for our players who go to Europe is not improving faster than those who remain in MLS, though, but rather getting benched and going for a career in the lower divisions, useless for our NT; or just stop playing for good, like many have done (we just ignore them and their threads in Yanks Abroad languish beyond the 10th page); or return to the system here after N years not playing, in which case it's impossible to say whether they'd have been better players had they never gone. The exceptions, guys who go over there and become good, are very few. Not even enough to form a Starting XI. I think we have a very clear case of cherry picking when people focus on guys like McKennie but forget the many cases like Lletget, Mael Corboz or Rubio Rubin.
I am not being condescending at all. Facts can often be annoying. By the phrase body of work I mean you have to take everything into account when pulling a national team together. Skills, form, ability to fit the needs of the team everything. What I am saying is you don't see one assist and say 'kids ready build around him forever', I mean a player scoring a brilliant goal doesn't mean he is the best goal scorer in the league it just means he scored a great goal. It also doesn't mean he would fit a role with the national team. Likewise a player just getting minutes on any club doesn't mean he is all of a sudden a national team candidate any more then the kid playing a ton and playing well a division lower. the time frame they are looking at is about 2 and a half years thats when qualification starts again. nothing really counts until they have a new coach/td/gm/president I mean we don't even know the style or anything that the coach is going to play. I mean what if we get a coach who decides the answer is defend and play long then there isn't a need for a lot of winger/forwards types but they'll need more mids who defend first. Saief does have a nice resume and has really had a great career but has never been a really good player. could he help the national team sure but you don't build a team around serviceable players you build around stars. I think roldan is totally overrated and would be shocked if he ever becomes anything near an elite player. Adams is young and played out of position because like I said...they don't have a coach. nobody should've watched that match or the portugal one and decided anything about anyone. Same goes for the next two matches until there is a coach/gm/td/president there is nothing to see with the actual national team. big picture I am not disagreeing with you my point is simply let the summer pass..let them get a coach and see what way he is going to take the team...then you can talk about players. I mean the next coaches only goal is going to be to qualify for the wc. He may not want a bunch of 22 year olds running around he may go with the older steady hands to just try to get wins and homes and draws on the road and make sure they are in the top 3. the only think I hope with the coach is he does what BA didn't do after he took over he picks a basic 11 and then looks for depth with his rosters. oh and rowe deserves a longer look I mean if you take anything away from that match sunday its that when rowe/arriola came on the us atleast threatened to score but its tough to overcome jordan morris being on the pitch.
take the job from parks? parks doesn't have a spot on the team...that shouldn't be too hard. once he breaks through and isn't in their plans but is actually doing it...then I will be ok with the idea of him being ready to jump up. people just get too overexcited about the smallest things I mean the kid played...great...he is still young and his career can go either way. I mean he's played like 2 matches. I mean almost 10 years ago we had a player younger then parks who played more then 10 matches with monaco....freddy adu. my point is give the kid time before talking about building the national team around him.
We don’t know how he would have performed but we see plenty of MLS players plateau after a few years and I can’t think of one who made the jump in quality that Kljestan made while in Belgium. The make up of those leagues is completely different. The euro teams have more and better depth such there is more variability in players on an mls teams from top to bottom. On average the teams may be similar but there are a lot of mls players who couldn’t make those teams. He had an attacking role with Chivas and had one season with double digit assists. That is what I’m comparing. His performance at Chivas vs Red Bull’s after spending years in Belgium.
True, yet we also see many young players who go to Europe and disappear. I suspect it's different for each person. Some may be in a better situation over there, often we see guys with, say, a Scottish background going to Scotland (where they have family). It's different for someone who has no family at all anywhere in Europe. Also, each person has a different character. Some are more family-oriented than others, some are less culturally flexible, etc. So what improves some may drive others to "flop" and abandon the game.
Europe is a vast, vast world for US soccer players. Easy to get over looked and lost. It takes luck and/or a special person to make it. It's why when we see guys today starting to get mention over there, it is possibly a big thing. Great point about individuals and that's the key. Finding the one's that may not be born with the top 1% physical gifts but instead with the top minds for the game and hopefully the motors for the game. And get them in challenging positions very week where they have to keep getting better. My question is where does that exist for a young US soccer player in 2018?
That's why building a solid local league is vital. That's why I think Donovan did much good by staying and pushing the train when it was about to stop. We're never going anywhere if we expect other nations to develop our players. It's the weasel way out, too, because it hides a system that is not working and is displacing a whole segment of the population out of the game --all those who cannot afford the academies.
Great post. There are two logical conclusions as to why the lineup we saw was used. One is that Sarachan thinks he can get the job full time with a win and, like his boss Arena, feels winning comes from putting out experienced players. Adams would be the exception, but he seems aware enough to start Adams for p.r. purposes. Why they pushed him up next to Sapong is weird and hard to explain. The second is that the lesson to teach the young guys is you have to beat the other guys in camp to get on the field. I personally think it is the first, but you will hear the second to cover up. There is value to the idea you have to win your spot. Of course, we don't know if Glad wasn't better than Zimmerman in camp or Zardes better than Rowe or Morrow better than Acosta. If we are suppose to believe the second logical explanation, than that means Glad, Acosta, Ramirez weren't good enough. Looking at the guys they couldn't beat, that is depressing.
Rarely do they disappear. More often than not they end up back in MLS and get a starting job if not become and important part of their team. Shea, Canouse, Agudelo, Kitchen, and probably Rubin now all come back and fit right into MLS after not making in the Championship, Danish League, or Bundesliga 2. Glad they tried (well, Kitchen, Canouse, Rubin tried) and they will be fine in MLS and some will make good money. We want more to try, because you can't get into the Champions League without being in Europe.
And the team doesn't have a coach. The last coach really only rated MLS players and the must include players. I hope the next coach is not so indebted to MLS. FTR DW doesn't really have a full spot on the team either. I would add that he (Parks) had two assists today in a Benfica B game. One of them a forty yard pass dropped on the forwards foot and a backheel flick at a dead run off a GK he flicked into the path of the scorer. Pretty, really pretty stuff. We have quite a bit of time before the next WC. Rather than trying out tired never were MLs players like Acosta, Trapp, Roldan, Nagbe, etal, I would rather run out some of the up and comers. I never ever said build a team around Keaton, I just want to see him called up soon, maybe the France send off, and see what he has to offer. If Dwill or Acosta shows better then so be it, but I would think he has done enough at this stage in the cycle to warrant a look.
I find it extremely disturbing that Zardes is damned near a lock starter when healthy. I cannot believe any knowledgeable football person would even consider him a footballer. I like the guy and it is hard to argue against his production. I just have a really hard time watching multiple forty yard passes dropped right on a dime and the receiving player muck it up so bad multiple times. There are powerful interests in our "system" that rates athleticism, and running around a lot, over football skills. I find it nigh impossible to accept that there isn't a suitable combination of 11-15 players that does not include multiple spots with Omar Gonzalez, Gyasi Zardes type that either cannot pass at all or are scared to even be on the ball. Sad, sad indeed.
The objective is advancing the game in the USA, not just winning matches. And you cannot advance the game without growing the soccer culture at home. And you cannot grow the soccer culture at home without growing the local league. Everything else is delusion. And the list of players who went to Europe and disappeared is the longest one. Of course, people don't know their names because they, well, disappeared. But you have young prospect after young prospect who looked good and went there and maybe weren't good enough, maybe never got the chance. Do you remember Khai Celestin, who dazzled with the Crew back in 2010? He was taken to Europe, and even spent some time (years) not playing, but went back recently and is in the Spanish fourth division, 24 years now. Or how about Ryan Finley, who was with the Crew and Chivas, left for Scandinavia and retired at 25? Or what about Agbossoumonde? He was big when he moved to the Portuguese league, people here penciled him in in all lineups already. He never played a second for Estoril, got loaned around, returned, and now is in the USL. The list is huge. For 100 guys we "send" to Europe, we get 10 who return. Of those 10, 2 or 3 stay in MLS and look good there. The rest look so poor they go down to NASL or the USL or just disappear. The bulk, 80%, never make it in Europe and stay there playing in third tiers or worse because they have relatives around (very often these guys have family there, being of European or African/Caribbean or Jewish ancestry). I'm sure we've lost some guys who could have been good to the European marshes, guys who left to "improve" there and never got a shot.
So? What is your point? How many Brazilians go to Europe and don't make it? Who cares, because they have 23 that went and excelled. The answer wouldn't be to keep all the Brazilians in Brazil and grow their domestic league. Having legions of Brazilian players leave Brazil certainly hasn't destroyed the football culture there. Is Messi playing in Champions League finals and El Classicos with a Spanish team killed Argentinian football? If your saying guys went to Europe who were good enough to play in the Champions League but got lost somewhere and if they had just stayed in MLS they would have been sold to Real Madrid....I'd say pass what you have been smoking, we could all use it these days. MLS academies should take the best players at 16, develop them, and sell them to Europe before they are 22. Use those funds to develop more players to sell and upgrade their roster and on the field product. That is how it is done everywhere. It is not playing a bunch of 29 year old journeymen then taking your draft pick and selecting a 22 yr old from the NCAA that never played pro minutes.
Building a solid local league is vital, but that is on the billionaire owners of that league. We get that you love Donovan and he was extremely talented, at least by American standards, but please stop trying to make make him out as a savior of the league out of the goodness of his heart. He didn’t like where he had signed a long term deal and was able to broker a loan back to MLS. He tried to go back to Leverkusen and failed miserably. He then came back to the league, but even closer to home. I hope our best players find the best environment that helps them maximize their potential. If our league isn’t that option then so be it. The respectable response is what should a nation of our size and wealth be doing to change that instead of questioning making the most of our “resources”. Players going abroad helps those players and instead hiding our systems inadequacies, it makes them as transparent as they could be. This isn’t on the players or fans, but on the league and it’s well to do owners who are trying to make a profit.
You can only be the best by pushing yourself to be the best. A player is 10, playing U12, then he is 12, playing U16, then he signs with an Academy and is competing at 14 with 17 and 18 year olds. Then he is in USL as a 16 yr old and then MLS as a 17 yr old. At 18, he is in MLS, and is in January Camp for the USMNT. He moves from the wing to the central midfield. Ok, now what does he do? Does he stay in MLS? This kid who is now a Pro, grew up watching Zidane, Beckham and Henry, and wants to be as good as them? The best will want to push themselves. There are better leagues out there; bigger clubs, better competition. He played against older kids because they gave him the competition to get better. You can only get better when forced to. I hope all our players have that drive. Pulisic has it. McKennie has it. Dempsey had it. Donovan didn't have it.
But Brazilians don't try to send their 16 year old kids to any academy in Europe who'd take them with no word of even trying to develop them! Not even Mexico does that! It's dumb, dumb as hell, letting academies in Europe take our young talent "no strings attached" when they are so young. All they become is cannon fodder. Mexicans are not bothered to keep their kids playing in the MX until they hit 22 and then get bought for actual money by European teams to keep developing there, actually playing for a club. Brazil has plenty of young kids in Europe, but the ones who make it are not those who left at 16 to become part of some top academy roster. No, the ones who make it are the ones who leave Brazil at around 20 to play for good clubs in Europe! All that is because MX and even more the Brazilian league have a solid reputation in Europe. They're taken seriously, the Europeans buy talent from them, for real money, to actually play there. With us, in the last years it's got ridiculous: they scout very young kids that are taken on a free, they play around in their academies for a few months, get loaned somewhere very low in the ladder where they never or rarely play, go back to the academy, are used as sparring partners for the kids the club really cares about for another year, another loan or two, then once they hit 21 or 22 they're told, "it was nice to know you, good luck."
If you want to see what great soccer could look like Keaton Parks does what Delgado does 2x. The challenge now will be to get a coach who isn't going to make him "creator" or "Talisman" or "playmaker" . I love the way Benfica use him. With Delgado and Parks on the squad we will keep the ball moving lively thru midfield and the whole team will start to look like a winner again. I"d add WesMcKennie at the 10, personally, but I know many don't agree. I just hope we don't misuse Parks. Sarachan will likely use McKennie and Parks as dual 8's and I'm afraid the situation will become somewhat confused. We'll see if we get the friendly against Japan in March. That will be a stretch for McKennie to make anyway because of his MCL sprain.