Match 61: FRA : BEL - CUNHA (URU)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2018: Refereeing' started by balu, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    As I stated on another match thread, Fox way over budget on Dr. Joe.
     
  2. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unfortunately, it appears they are treating red card fouls like offside, and "keeping their flag down" to wait on VAR...
     
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  3. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, minimum wage doesn't go a long way...
     
  4. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    This game was actually an easy match to officiate. The referee didn't show a couple of yellow cards when he should have and showed yellow in one instance where it wasn't exactly required. The foul on Hazard wasn't call, although Hazard did dive after that contact. But overall, while the officiating wasn't all that great, and the same performance in a tough match could have made things really look bad, it was mostly a case of no harm, no foul in this game.

    More broadly, I don't understand those who want to see a lot more red cards (or penalties for that matter). To me, a red card or penalty, unless for an infraction that genuinely disrupts or prevent a goal scoring chance, is basically to allow the game to be decided by the referee. There are simply too many type of contacts and fouls that can arguably be shown a red card and a similar number of contacts in the box that would technically be a foul if outside the box. For me, what is missing in football is the "orange card" sometimes mentioned (a temporary ejection for 10 minutes that doesn't result in a player missing the next game unless cards are accumulated) and, in case of fouls in the box that aren't preventing a goal scoring chance, an indirect free-kick in lieu of a penalty kick. If those intermediate tools were provided to referees, I would then by a stickler for making sure the LOTG are enforced strictly. Until then, I prefer referees to err on the side of not intervening too much in a match, unless that match has trouble written all over it from the get to (see England-Colombia game).
     
  5. The free kick not given to Hazard close to the 16 mtr line, while he was knocked down in full sight of the ref in the second half should have been the moment for Kevin de Bruyne to show his perfect control of the ball from that distance. This ref failure could be the decisive moment of the match.
     
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  6. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    The way KB was playing, the FK woukd have ended up with the supporters.
     
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  7. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    Dissent has got to figure in that equation somewhere...surely?
    (Not in this match...but every other match except Eng vs Swe)
     
  8. Count Chocula

    Count Chocula Member+

    May 7, 2010
    Cedar Falls, IA
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    isn't by not calling a foul in the penalty box or sending off a player who committed VC also a match being decided by the referee?
     
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  9. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Or FIFA needs to join the 21st Century and have time kept off the field by a neutral timekeeper, with the clock stopping whenever the ball is not in play.
     
  10. JohnW

    JohnW Member

    Apr 27, 2001
    St. Paul
    I haven't posted in many of the referee match threads, but I've read a lot them and I don't remember seeing that many calls for red cards. (The two discussions I remember the most were the head butt or "head butt" in the Eng-Col game and the Ronaldo intentional face slap or incidental swim move in the Portugal-Iran game.)

    Instead, what I've read people commenting about (and seen with my own eyes) is that the overall lack of yellow cards for dissent, tactical fouls, persistent infringement, etc. and definitively the lack of second yellows/red red cards have made some of the games nearly unwatchable (cf. Eng-Col). And to what benefit except being able to say that the number of red cards is down?

    In my opinion, the true miracle in this World Cup isn't that FIFA has managed to avoid a major controversy due to lack of preparation in implementing VAR; rather, the true miracle is that with the lack of YCs early in matches that no player has been snapped in half a la Roy Keane-Alf Haaland.

    As to this game, I didn't think the referee did a very good job, and the missed call on Hazard just outside the box was criminal. But once again, FIFA got what it wanted--the game ended with 22 players and no VAR controversies.
     
  11. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meanwhile the NCAA is looking at changing it to the LOTG to eliminate the nightmare that is managing the end of close games.
     
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  12. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Wait 10..9..8..7..6..5.. isn’t working for them.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not sure why entering the 21st century means changing the game completely. One of the beautiful and attractive aspects of our sport is that it takes up a 2-hour window barring something near catastrophic. Even 15 minutes of stoppage keeps you inside that window. There has never and should never be an expectation that every single moment of “downtime” is made up for in our sport like there is in basketball or ice hockey. There are multiple tools available to adequately combat and punish timewasting. We shouldn’t surrender and change the sport simply because major competition authorities don’t push referees to address the identified problem.
     
  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since I guess the thread is already heading this way I'll jump in.

    I think the 30 minute halves with a stopped clock is too drastic of a change and I just don't see it happening. However, I could see the rugby style clock working well here. The clock goes down to zero but the game doesn't end until the ball goes out of play for a throw-in, corner, or goal kick.

    Hanging above any change is the fact that the LOTG are supposed to apply at all levels of football. A single ref on an adult game in England is not going to want to start and stop his watch every time the ball is out of play. That sets up a situation where you have two timing options that are applied differently at the pro level compared to the amateur level. I guess we'll see what IFAB comes up with in the next few years.
     
  15. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Dissent is merely dying.
     
  16. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think dissent is thriving! :cool:
     
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  17. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The referee is a neutral timekeeper.

    But, if we're really going there, then I think we should have a shot clock, because soccer is too boring as it is played now. Teams have 30 seconds to put a shot on goal or the defensive team gets a IDFK from the 18.
     
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  18. The411

    The411 Member

    Oct 12, 2013
    Cunha made several mistakes early on that did not come back to haunt him only by the virtue of the teams playing. Had this game consisted of two cynical teams someone may have come off with a broken leg.

    His nonchalance comes off as a combination of cowardice, arrogance, and disinterest.

    He was terribly inconsistent with the cards and gave yellows simply because of the time in the game. Even worse he gave yellows for nearly identical offense that were committed in the game and were not given cards.
     
  19. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course it is. As has been discussed ad infinitum in this World Cup, far easier to commit an error of omission rather than an error of commission.

    I sincerely hope that FIFA looks at this World Cup and sees that sanctions were far too lenient. Let the referees properly sanction misconduct. If the players don't adjust, that's on them. I have no issue with trying to manage a game, but at some point managing doesn't work.
     
  20. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I don't see it quite that way, although certainly the failure to make such calls when warranted by LOTG will also mean the referee is influencing the result. But since my problem is with the LOTG which treat all fouls in the box technically the same, when some of those fouls are contacts which wouldn't have amounted to anything and others prevent a scoring chance, my view is that you would get a less arbitrary system if you allowed for an intermediate sanction (i.e., indirect free-kick for fouls that aren't preventing a scoring chance). That should both cut down on some of the contact we regularly see in the box which aren't called as penalties because a penalty is too harsh and there isn't another way to penalize them, while making sure these kind of things aren't what necessarily decide the final result.
     
  21. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    That would be similar to what college lacrosse does.
     
  22. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Do away with commutative cards and referees are free to follow and enforce the laws as written.
     
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  23. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I need to disclose I was not being sincere re the shot clock - nor would I support other external systems for keeping/adding time. Let's try to have the game played on the same Laws, with reasonable youth & league modifications, from top to bottom.
     
  24. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    While an interesting idea, I don't see it as practical--suddenly it is good for the defense that the foul occurred in the PA because it becomes indirect instead of direct. And we are going to create yet another line for referees to draw--and to be cause of dissent. And we are going to make more common the IFK less than 10 yards from the goal--which is an ugly and almost unmanageable event.

    A perhaps less radical option would be to have a longer PK (say, the 18?) for fouls in the PA where the player was moving away from the goal. (Doesn't futsal have two kinds of PKs?) That doesn't solve the problem of controversial line drawing, but makes it a less dramatic difference, and doesn't set up the unmanageable restart.

    A problem with either is the difficulty in getting consistency on the calls--the "lesser PK" is an act of commission that will get more scrutiny than a non-call. (Consistency in the professional ranks will be difficult; consistency in grass roots leagues will be utterly impossible.) And as we have seen with the history of DOGSO, looking for a cop out and making the lesser call has an element of human nature to it. Which is a long way of getting to doubt that it will actually reduce the uncalled fouls--rather, players will have more incentive to do the behaviors, as the consequences are less (and I don't think many more will get called in the real world).
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Darn. I thought it was a serious proposal. I was going to add that maybe they should get four chances before the other team got the ball.
     

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