Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion v2.0

Discussion in 'GROUP E: Netherlands, Denmark, Japan, Cameroon' started by DSC05, Mar 14, 2010.

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  1. DSC05

    DSC05 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    Club:
    --other--
    Thursday, June 24, 2010
    Cape Town

    Cameroon [​IMG] v [​IMG] Netherlands

    Threads are usually closed at 500 posts - so expect new threads closer to the event. Moderators will try to close the thread at a logical transition point and will always provide a link to the most current thread.
     
  2. DSC05

    DSC05 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Let's start again. Same rules as the old thread. Posting that team X (X being what ever team you want it to be) will win is not acceptable either.
     
  3. fireman451

    fireman451 Member+

    Jun 26, 2002
    The Midwest
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Per The Kinks:
    :D
     
  4. encorelui2

    encorelui2 Member

    Apr 12, 2009
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Its funny though how this CMR-NED game is taking up everyone's attantion (particularly considering that both teams have tough games against Japan & Denmark b4 meeting each other)

    I have been going through quite a few Cameroonian forums (in both French & English) and one thing I have come to notice is that they are not too comfortable with Emana..They are all calling for this Marcel Njeng guy to replace him. Haven't ever seen him play, but based on some videos here & there he seems to be good. this is the formation, most are proposing:
    [LINEUP-4-4-2]Eto'o, Idirissou,Bedimo, Alex, Emana/Njeng, Geremi, Asou, Koulou, Bassong, Binya/Mbia, Kameni[/LINEUP-4-4-2]

    Sort of a diamond with Emana playing right behind Eto & Idirisou. Seems logical to me considering the available man power. Very physical presence in the middle & they can use bedimo as he is used with Lens (as a left mf)
     
  5. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Definitely don't understand why Emana is being played as striker by Le Guen. I know he can score goals, but he does best as AM. Interesting to see Bedimo and Geremi as wingers. Mbia as right back might work, although I did like what I saw from Mandjeck and Nounkeu (who looked really good as RB).

    Marcel Njeng... first time I hear the name I must say... I unfortunately think that this is based on a lack of faith in local players, so they prefer to naturalize lower league players of Cameroonian descent.

    Given Idrissou, Emana and Eto'o I really think a diamond would work best.

    How do you make those fieldings?
     
  6. emmex

    emmex New Member

    Feb 23, 2009
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    I only disagree with Maruti when i feel he is wrong (as well as to show that im trying to be unbiased when i can)...like me preferring Geremi on wingback than Maritu prefers him on wing...

    As for the Emana argument: i cannot comment cause i dont know the player.

    As for Cisse vs. Benzema: I agree twofold. Cisse is an awesome player.....Benzema seems more tenacious, but Cisse has power and technique that i prefer...I am also a fan of Saha who should also make the world cup team

    I also stand with my general stance that African players are better individuals, but Europe are better "teams". The odds of finding a great individual, skillful, strong, fit player for a bargain, will be in africa. Whilst in Europe you will have an easier task of finding team players, professionals and someone who can shoot and take set pieces. Raw talent in africa is like uncut diamonds....
     
  7. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Than why are there far more Fifa World player of the Year awards apointed to European players instead of African players. I think this even go's for the nominees. If African players are better individuels, than they would win most of the Fifa WPotY awards right? Apart from Weah (first and second) and Eto'o (third) we have to wait for more.

    Also...Taking set pieces is for me quite individuel stuff. Why would taking a free kick be a team thing? It's individuell skill to kick the ball, and Drogba is not bad in it either I might add.
     
  8. emmex

    emmex New Member

    Feb 23, 2009
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    good points:

    Basically i am referring to averages. Whilst there is a obvious difference between the top, top players in the top 10 of the world at the moment, this is not what im talking about.
    What im referring to is that in many african countries you will find players of great skill/talent, on a more regular basis on average. Its like everyone plays soccer at a highish level, but never get the chance to go further. An example was when i saw Namibia play the other day. These players were not even professionals...some were teachers and so forth, yet competed very very well. In South Africa, many players in the PSL are not professionals, yet compete just as well with the rest....

    In my opinion, if players were rated 1-10, you would find 6's and 7's on a more regular basis in Africa, yet never really reaching 8's or 9's..unless they are discovered/developed. Whilst in europe, you will find many 3's and 8's on a more regular basis than Africa and your chances of finding someone really special....
    But your average player on the street and in colleges in Europe will probably lose against your average player in africa. But on the top level, eventually africa loses out because of lack of development. Basically it will be easy to find great players in Africa, greater individuals per average, but finding top 10 players far more likely in Europe...Very hard to explain my point...

    I am white though and thus not racially biased toward black players. Just stating what ive seen - I remember years back when David Nyati was the best player on the field in a champions league match....and he was basically unknown...and this is often the case for african players...totally surprising higer rated opponents and "educated commentators". Sometimes certain players gets higher ratings and are over rated because they are more well known and a better brand....

    Not what i meant...
    Europe to me is by far better at these technicalities than africa because it is basically educated into their minds in those countries. Africans to me have more natural ability with certain things, but europe still prevails because they know how to use what they have....
     
  9. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    We're steering off topic... but just see what happened when one football academy in Africa got top class coaching. ASEC Abidżan has taught the following players: Kolo Toure, Yaya Toure, Emmanuel Eboué, Salomon Kalou, Bakari Koné, Aruna Dindane, Romaric, Copa Barry, Arthur Boka, Gervinho, Siaka Tiene, Bonaventure Kalou, Didier Ya Konan, Seydou Doumbia... so like 75% of the current Ivorian first team squad.
     
  10. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    I believe in the equallity of people and players. So I don't believe in individuell superiority from one continent over the other. I think Africa is equell to Europe and South America and the lack of Fifa WPOTY awards apointed to African players is the lack of proper football education and opportunity for the youth. I remember Emmex that we have already touched on this subject in another discussion. I simply don't agree with your claim that the average street or college player in Africa wins from the average player in Europe. Im my opinion they are all equelly good.
     
  11. emmex

    emmex New Member

    Feb 23, 2009
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Its really hard measuring talent....because thats what it comes down to eventually. Some people believe talent is only based on hard work...others believe it comes naturally. One thing i can say is that i believe that Europeans are better at certain things in football, and Africans in other things - and that its okay to believe that - its what makes us unique and not clones. It's not about race to me...but more about just natural attributes which makes people individuals. Just keep in mind that my perspective is coming from being an african of more "european in stature", vs people around me who is more "african in stature". I call myself an african, but my descent is from europe....Its the same reasons why Kenya tend to be good at long distance running, SA good at Rugby and Asia good at gymnastics...it doesnt make them better people, but their characteristics suit certain elements on a more usual occasion. And i dont believe this is always just based on structures put in place developing these either...

    To stay on topic i will say this:
    Individually Cameroon will generally win in soccer...cohesively, Netherlands will win
     
  12. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Actually talent does come naturally, one cannot learn to become talented... but one can gain and improve ability though hard work.

    And if you ask me, (I know you didn't) the differences between abilities and preferences between peoples of different countries/regions has much more to do with history and local circumstances than with any of their characteristics as human beings.
     
  13. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    I agree with OrangeBal. That said I also agree with emmex that if a random group of Africans were pitted against a random group of Europeans than the Europeans would get whooped. In general they have just played so much more football than a European,
     
  14. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    That may be. A truely random group of Europeans against a truely random group of Africans... I think there are relatively more coach-potatoes in Europe... And fat blokes... and old seniles ;)
     
  15. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    false. :p

    holland has always been known for their great individuals. name a cameroon player as good as cruyff, van basten, gullit etc.

    you can't.

    as good as eto'o is, you can't even place him in the same category as bergkamp, van nistelrooy or seedorf.

    your arguement has some meaning against one of the smaller european nations soccerwise but not holland.

    what makes holland so great at developing talents is like many have said before, our cage - and street soccer culture.

    random dutch kids are being paid to tour the world by showing off their freestyle/panna skills like motg while guys like edward van gils and others have helped with the development of fifa street.

    those crazy tricks you see in those games? yes thought of by random dutch street players.

    the netherlands are the 2nd best european country at the moment, have some respect. they have also attracted the most crowds and fans in the last european championship, you can not tell me some random dutchies aren't at least equal or better than a bunch of random guys from cameroon.

    do you even know how big soccer is here? :D
     
  16. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    in all honesty i'm more worried about denmark in this group than cameroon. we always seem to struggle against them like most top tier european countries have, per example portugal.

    i don't think any african team has ever beaten holland? we've beaten côte d'ivoire in 2006 and that team was very unlucky not to have won that year's acn, as you know they were only beaten after the penalty shoot-out.

    we made it out of that group and we will make it out of this group. wc '06 group had serbia rock bottom with 0 points while they have now topped their qualifying group ahead of france.

    now that was a real group of death. this should be peanuts. :p
     
  17. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    Oh yes I can: Theophile Abega, Samuel Eto'o, Roger Milla, Jean Manga-Onguene.

    You are just so pro=Dutch biased it's unbelievable.

    1. Wow there!!! Yes you can! Eto'o is the same (or higher) category of player. And it's just ridiculous that you are putting him down... Individually Eto'o has been more honored than van nistelrooy or seedorf. To be mildly objective - Seedorf or van Nistelrooy never made any podium of a best footballers award. Eto'o did.

    2. Its hard to compare players from different ages with each other. Is Cryuff better than i.e. Eto'o? Hard to tell. But given the historical realities he was a much more prolific individual in his time-period than Eto'o in his.

    3. Additionally Cameroonians playing in Europe is a relatively fresh thing. Hence Holland has had a longer period to produce players interationally. Some of Cameroons greatest only started playing in Europe at an older age. Others never played abroad.

    For example Theophile Abega - in my book a player on the level of Van Basten - made his first professional contract in Europe at the age of 31. He had one tremendous season for Toulouse, got injured, signed for a lowly Swiss team, played a couple of seasons and retired from professional football.

    Some of the Cameroon players who were just as good as most top players Holland produced only never really had the chance to play in Europe (Jean Manga-Onguene, François Ndoumbé Lea) or put country ahead of club (Patrick M'boma). In the end they

    4. Besides all football historians agree that Roger Milla has the same place in football history as Gullit, Cryuff... If you don't acknowledge that than I see no point in continuing this discussion.

    Actually I don't see it right now. Your post was provocative and in an attempt to keep this discussion civil and on-topic I reported us to the moderators.
     
  18. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    First: Wrong. 1999 lost 2:1 to Morocco.

    Holland has hardly ever played an African team... besides African teams are different... A lot of the teams you played were Northern African.

    11 games within the last 20 years. 5 wins, 1 loss, 5 draws. 5 of these were with North African teams. Hardly a lot.

    As to Cameroon its one win (1:0) and one draw (0:0). Yet to meet at a competitive event.

    Yes, you beat them. But it was an equal encounter with Cote d'Ivoire being denied a clear penalty at 0:0. And CI defence was terrible. And ACN is no indicator of anything. Cameroon had a terrible 1990 ACN.

    Historically this may well be Holland's easiest group... some teams tend to flop in such groups due to overconfidence...
     
  19. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    1. eto'o never made the fifa 100 best ever list, holland has 13 players in that list including seedorf and rvn. cameroons only representative is roger milla. both seedorf and rvn have individual awards.

    2. no i agree, you're right eto'o is clearly as good as cruyff since eto'o led his country to a lot of world cup finals and all. ;)

    3. maybe because they weren't deemed good enough? wow abega the man who played 20 games while scoring a whopping 3 goals for toulouse is as good as van basten who in the same time period was hailed as the world best? ok if you say so :p

    no wonder you think whatshisname is better than sneijder.

    4. roger milla is higly rated sure i think he's the best african player ever, but on par with cruyff? no not really. :D
     
  20. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    truth. ice hockey is so big in canada that i don't ever see them ever being good at soccer/football.
     
  21. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    A list unveiled in march 2004... hmm...
    BTW: Where is Messi on that list?

    Yes, I agree. George Best sucked.

    Abega was 31 at the time of his first European contract. van Basten at the age of 31 was retired. van Basten was a striker, Abega was a midfielder. Instead of asking how many goals he scored, you should find out how many assists he had.

    Or maybe because not a lot of African players were scouted at the time? Abega is deemed to be a better player than Roger Milla by many Cameroonians.

    Maybe not. Maybe yes. He is in the same category of the world's greatest.
     
  22. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    eto'o was african player of the year in 2004 and still didn't make the list :D.

    messi march 2004 was still playing for the barcelona reserves so wasn't included by default. :p
     
  23. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    how about just no :D
     
  24. Maruti

    Maruti New Member

    May 14, 2006
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    And Eto'o was playing for lowly Mallorca, so wasn't included by default.

    His biggest achievements were 2004-2009. 2003-2004 was just the beginning.

    As to your second comment: How about yes.
     
  25. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Re: Match 44: Cameroon v. Netherlands :: Pre-match discussion (Take 2)

    preach! :D
     

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