Match #2: MEX : CMR - ROLDAN (COL)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014: Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. SombraAla

    SombraAla Member+

    Apr 2, 2006
    Waldo (Kansas City)
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure if people really appreciate how close it is, even. My modeling, while definitely not perfect, basically have the offside call being dead-even. Depending on how I interpret pixels I can even model it as dos Santos being an inch or so offside.

    Granted, anything that close should be interpreted as onside. Or, at least, that's my opinion. But if he takes a look a moment after the ball is played, he is offside. Still by a very marginal amount, but if I let the video run something to the effect of 2 or 3 frames (so, what, 1/12th, 1/8th of a second, probably) then he is offside.

    All of this is with the benefit of being able to stop the video on the exact moment it is hit. Perhaps we should train our ARs in the ways of the Matrix.
     
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  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm gonna be a wild eyed optimist. After this Cup, FIFA is going to get very, very serious about punishing simulation, and they're going to get very, very serious about ARs giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker (like the rules say.)

    They'll do that right after they clean up the voting process for hosting the Cup.

    PS...******** that AR for making me feel sorry for Mexico. I want my ********ing schadenfreude!!!
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the thing...of the 2% or 4% or 6% that are missed, I'd bet that 2/3 or more of the misses are false positives rather than false negatives.
     
  4. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    See the other threads for more on this well-known phenomenon. This is nothing new.

    PH
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure. And I know what you're getting at here.

    But in 15 years, which call do you think will be more remembered...

    The disallowed goal today for Mexico?
    Or the allowed goal for Argentina in 2010?

    We can rail all we want about the false positives. But the false negatives are the ones that stick with people forever.
     
  6. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Right. Gio Dos Santos had one of the most amazing World Cup single game performances I've ever seen.

    Nobody will remember it in a week.

    Don Denkinger is still the butt of jokes 30 years later for blowing a call at first base.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's a soccer-centric thing. I think guys like me, who came to soccer later in life after they'd been football and basketball and hockey fans for 20 years, don't think like that. And that's because the ethos in American sports is that a false negative is preferable to a false positive.

    Also, which play do US fans bitch more about...Frings' handball, or the Ghana penalty in 2006? And the Ghana penalty was by some margin a worse call.

    Just a counterexample.
     
  8. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I'll agree that there is an American sports ethos. Suarez's red card in South Africa created much more outrage outside the U.S. Some wondering if there was a way to change the rules to make the goal count.

    I think many American sports fans (but not necessarily all American soccer fans) saw it as a player making the ultimate sacrifice for his team.

    EDIT:
    Ironically, the German's in 2002 again - in the next game, Michael Ballack made the ultimate sacrifice for his team on a Korean breakaway that kept him out of the final against Brazil. Since then, most FIFA tournaments have stopped yellow card accumulation once the semifinals are reached.
     
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  9. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Yup, exactly what I wrote earlier on the False positive thread!
    PH
     
  10. GalaxyOne

    GalaxyOne Member+

    Dec 6, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Or maybe just tell them to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker, when it's that close?
     
  11. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    It's not the fans we are talking about. It is the psychology of the AR or referee, and what they prefer. They prefer not to be remembered for a screw-up.

    PH
    Never ever heard of this person before.

    PH
     
  12. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
  13. SombraAla

    SombraAla Member+

    Apr 2, 2006
    Waldo (Kansas City)
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right, and I think a lot of people would agree with that...

    But my point is that it's very likely when he actually had the chance to look, dos Santos was off.
     
  14. GalaxyOne

    GalaxyOne Member+

    Dec 6, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems like a weak excuse. Why wouldn't he have likely been able to see the play in real time? That is his primary job, after all.
     
  15. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any serious baseball fan knows about this call. Its one of the most famous blown calls in American sports history.
     
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  17. tsun23

    tsun23 Member

    May 10, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So is Mr.Roldan going to be continuing in this tournament?
     
  18. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I'd be shocked if less than 50% of the readers of this forum on BigSoccer weren't familiar with the given play.

    A large majority of the posters on BigSoccer are American. Many of the match officials I know from my career as a sports photographer share a kindred appreciation of match officials of other sports.

    Obviously age is a factor here. Anyone under 40 may have no memory of the 1985 World Series, but my suspicion is that this forum skews older than most of BigSoccer. YMMV.
     
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  19. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, some of us follow other sports too....
     
  20. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Steve Nicol just embarrassed himself trying to justify that the second offside goal called back on Mexico was correct because the ball deflected off the Cameroon defender but he didn't intend to deflect it towards the Mexican player, therefore offside. This even though he stated the player was not offside when the pass (corner) was made. That was weird.

    He did say he consulted an official but I suspect the official misunderstood what he was asking.
     
  21. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    This probably has been discussed already, I apologize if I'm repeating the obvious; it's 3:20 AM and I won't read the entire thread; I need to get to sleep. But here is what I have to say:

    I'm appalled at the ignorance displayed by journalists, "experts," and fans.

    In multiple sources - including ESPN "The World Cup Tonight" and even Brazilian websites for major newspapers like O Estado de Minas (I'd think Americans at times are less familiar with the game, but Brazilians???), and on message boards everywhere, people are going on and on about how wrong it was to disallow the second goal by Mexico, because the defender deflected the ball, therefore there was no off-side.

    Well, the Football Association and FIFA changed the rule, effective July 1, 2013. The new off-side rule reads that the defenders deflecting the ball no longer constitutes a waiver for off-side.

    The referee was absolutely correct and applied the new rule, which is in force.

    OK, the public may be familiar with the old rule, but how come professional commentators and players such as Roberto Martinez for ESPN go on and on categorically affirming that the ref was wrong, without knowing that the rule has changed as of July 1, 2013???
     
  22. Marratacaja

    Marratacaja Member

    Mar 3, 2014
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Both Wilmer Roldán and Clavijo are already known in Colombia for corruption and quite infamous for the Corinthians - Táchira Libertadores semi final in 2012 (no wonder why FIFA picks them).

    I'd like to see how FIFA comes up to defend their actions this time, though
     
  23. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Sorry mate but I think you are misunderstanding either the situation or the the offside law (not the change but the whole law).

    Yes the law change clarifies that deflections off defenders doesn't reset offside but that is actually irrelevant for this specific situation because the most basic requirement for offside is that the ball has to be played by an attacker for another attacker to subsequently be ruled offside. However corners (and goalkicks and throw-ins) are exemptions and thus there was never any possibility for the Mexican player (Dos Santos?) to commit an offside offence here.

    It was a referee mistake and one that, as been noted in the thread, shouldn't have happened because alarm bells should have gone off for all the referees to think it through a bit more and realise that offside wasn't a possibility.
     
  24. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    There is some lack of clarity in the LOTG with regard to the specific moment to be used in ajudging such decisions. When the action is so close (as it was here in the 1st nullified goal), the time between when the ball is first contacted by the teammate (the passer) and when it breaks contact with that player can be long enough to change the position of the eventual goal scorer from on to off.
    I'm curious how many people use the beginning of the touch or the end. The current text reads: "A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, ...", but I believe that the language used to be something such as "when last played or touched by a teammate."
     
  25. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    Because they are all familiar with the fact that the restart was a corner kick and that an attacker cannot be penalized for offside if the last contact with the ball by one of his teammates was the taking of a corner kick.
    Unfortunately, you missed that.
     

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