Marco van Basten - his years at Ajax

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
     
  2. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Some other info (I had it already in the computer for a large part):


    Goalscoring record in one season since 1956 (cut-off point = 28 goals)


    1. Coen Dillen (PSV), 43 goals in 56/57 (in 34 aps)
    2. Henk Groot (Ajax), 41 goals in 60/61 (in 32 aps)
    3. Henk Groot (Ajax), 38 goals in 59/60 (in 33 aps)
    4. Marco van Basten (Ajax), 37 goals in 85/86 (in 26 aps)
    5. Mateja Kezman (PSV), 35 goals in 02/03 (in 33 aps)
    6. Luis Suarez (Ajax), 35 goals in 09/10 (in 33 aps)
    7. Afonso Alves (Heerenveen), 34 goals in 06/07 (in 31 aps)
    8. Nikos Machlas (Vitesse), 34 goals in 97/98 (in 32 aps)
    9. Ruud Geels (Ajax), 34 goals in 76/77 (in 34 aps)
    10. Kees Kist (AZ67), 34 goals in 78/79 (in 34 aps)
    11. Johan Cruijff (Ajax), 33 goals in 66/67 (in 30 aps)
    12. Leo Canjels (NAC), 33 goals in 58/59 (in 31 aps)
    13. Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (Heerenveen/Ajax), 33 goals in 05/06 (in 31 aps)
    14. Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (Ajax), 33 goals in 07/08 (in 34 aps)
    15. Leo Canjels (NAC), 32 goals in 57/58 (in 29 aps)
    16. Cor van der Gijp (Feyenoord), 32 goals in 56/57 (in 32 aps)
    17. Wim Kieft (Ajax), 32 goals in 81/82 (in 32 aps)
    18. Marco van Basten (Ajax), 31 goals in 86/87 (in 27 aps)
    19. Coen Dillen (PSV), 31 goals in 59/60 (in 28 aps)
    20. Mateja Kezman (PSV), 31 goals in 03/04 (in 29 aps)
    21. Ruud van Nistelrooij (PSV), 31 goals in 98/99 (in 34 aps)
    22. Dick van Dijk (Twente), 30 goals in 68/69 (in 32 aps)
    23. Ruud Geels (Ajax), 30 goals in 77/78 (in 32 aps)
    24. Cor van der Gijp (Feyenoord), 30 goals in 60/61 (in 32 aps)
    25. Peter Houtman (Feyenoord), 30 goals in 82/83 (in 32 aps)
    26. Ruud Geels (Ajax), 30 goals in 74/75 (in 33 aps)
    27. Ove Kindvall (Feyenoord), 30 goals in 68/69 (in 33 aps)
    28. Ronaldo (PSV), 30 goals in 94/95 (in 33 aps)
    29. Pierre Kerkhoffs (SC Enschede), 30 goals in 59/60 (in 34 aps)
    30. Ruud van Nistelrooij (PSV), 29 goals in 99/00 (in 23 aps)
    31. Wim Kieft (PSV), 29 goals in 87/88 (in 32 aps)
    32. Ruud Geels (Ajax), 29 goals in 75/76 (in 33 aps)
    33. Tonny van der Linden (DOS), 29 goals in 57/58 (in 33 aps)
    34. Cees Groot (Ajax), 29 goals in 59/60 (in 34 aps)
    35. Kees Kist (AZ67), 29 goals in 81/82 (in 34 aps)
    36. Dirk Kuijt (Feyenoord), 29 goals in 04/05 (in 34 aps)
    37. Marco van Basten (Ajax), 28 goals in 83/84 (in 26 aps)
    38. Pierre van Hooijdonk (Feyenoord), 28 goals in 02/03 (in 28 aps)
    39. Frans Geurtsen (DWS), 28 goals in 63/64 (in 30 aps)
    40. Ove Kindvall (Feyenoord), 28 goals in 67/68 (in 32 aps)
    41. Willy van der Kuijlen (PSV), 28 goals in 74/75 (in 32 aps)
    42. Coen Dillen (PSV), 28 goals in 57/58 (in 33 aps)




    I know the cut-off point is arbitrary but compensating info will be given in the next posts.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Analysis:


    Appearances:

    Almost all have more than 30 aps.

    Exceptions (other than Van Basten):


    Van Hooijdonk in 02/03, 28 aps, 28 goals. Missed 6 consecutive league games with an injury. Had free-kicks as weapon.

    Ruud van Nistelrooij in 99/00, 29 goals, 23 aps. Was before his knee- injury in 2000 amazing with, amongst others, a hat-trick against Ajax (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N5jCafPG53Y#t=361s).

    Mateja Kezman in 03/04, 31 goals in 29 aps. A mystery why he never succeeded abroad. A real ‘thief of the goal’, as we call it here.

    Coen Dillen in 59/60, 31 goals, 28 aps.

    Leo Canjels in 57/58, 32 goals, 29 aps.


    Era breakdown:

    6 out of 42 are of the 1950s (Eredivisie exists since 1956)
    11 out of 42 are of the 1960s (4 are from 59/60, 2 from 60/61)
    6 out of 42 are of the 1970s (4 times Ruud Geels)
    7 out of 42 are of the 1980s (3 times Van Basten, 2 times Kieft)
    3 out of 42 are of the 1990s (Ronaldo, Machlas, Van Nistelrooij)
    8 out of 42 are of the 2000s
    1 out of 42 is of the 2010s



    Seasons with no goal-scorer of 28+ goals:

    61-63, 64-66, 69-74, 79-81, 84/85, 88-94, 95-97, 00-02, 10/11
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Number of appearances in the above mentioned top 42 (cut-off point 28 goals):

    4 – Ruud Geels (fifth best season 25 goals)
    3 – Marco van Basten (fourth best season 22 goals)
    3 – Coen Dillen (fourth best season 15 goals)
    2 – Kees Kist (third best season 27 goals)
    2 – Cor van der Gijp (third best season 26 goals)
    2 – Ove Kindvall (third best season 25 goals)
    2 – Mateja Kezman (third best season 24 goals)
    2 – Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (third best season 21 goals)
    2 – Wim Kieft (third best season 21 goals)
    2 – Leo Canjels (third best season 18 goals)
    2 – Henk Groot (third best season 18 goals)
    2 – Ruud van Nistelrooij (third best season 13 goals)
    *) Their best effort lower than 28 goals is mentioned in order to compensate for this arbitrary cut-off point


    Absentees (some famous names who never had 28 goals or more in one season, best season-effort in parentheses)

    Bergkamp (26 goals in 92/93)
    Romario (25 goals in 90/91)
    Gullit (24 goals in 85/86)
    Nilis (24 goals in 98/99)
    Litmanen (26 goals in 93/94)
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ordered on average (of above names mentioned), based on career in Eredivisie:

    Van Basten 0.962 (133 matches, 128 goals)
    Romario 0.899 (109 matches, 98 goals)
    Kindvall 0.895 (144 matches, 129 goals)
    Dillen 0.894 (133 matches, 119 goals)
    Kezman 0.860 (122 matches, 105 goals)
    Huntelaar 0.826 (92 matches, 76 goals)
    Canjels 0.782 (147 matches, 115 goals)
    Van Nistelrooij 0.765 (98 matches, 75 goals)
    Van der Gijp 0.753 (215 matches, 162 goals)
    Groot 0.685 (283 matches, 194 goals)
    Geels 0.676 (392 matches, 265 goals)
    Nilis 0.670 (164 matches, 110 goals)
    Kieft 0.598 (264 matches, 158 goals)
    Kist 0.569 (372 matches, 212 goals)
    Bergkamp 0.556 (185 matches, 103 goals)
    Litmanen 0.536 (179 matches ,96 goals)
    Gullit 0.489 (184 matches, 90 goals)
     
  8. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [In English (language) football lingo this is known as "holding up the ball" and it's ideally part of a No.9 centre-forward's attacking armoury as well.]
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thank you for clarification.



    I found now on the internet a list with all Ajax players that scored 50 goals or more:
    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_meest_scorende_spelers_bij_Ajax

    Van Basten has the second best average of all-time, only bettered by Van Reenen (1929-1942) and rivalled by Ruud Geels (1974-1978).
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, two things:

    There are actually pictures of the tackle that damaged his right ankle permanently:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIQ8tCbIm_E&feature=player_detailpage#t=326s"]De drie van Milaan deel 1 1/2 - YouTube[/ame]
    (5:26)

    Another thing:

    I have basically access to all Eredivisie results. Is there a player/striker I can do next?
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Naturally I'd like to see more of Gullit (if you can since he was not a real forward/striker_) if not then Bergkamp
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Bergkamp was for a long time also not really a second-striker, while Gullit was when he scored 24 goals in a season. Out of the top of my head: he was about 3/4th of the matches a forward in his first season. This is perhaps the nicest of the bunch:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vK0EwgQQJ0"]Gullit magic (even the keeper's applauding!) - YouTube[/ame]

    I saw lately this match-compilation appearing, when he was already past his prime:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWyuO4_K0h4"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWyuO4_K0h4[/ame]



    Thanks for your response. I was thinking about Romario, because his average comes very close to the one of Van Basten, but I want to be sure about it because it is a bit of work to do. Therefore I want to be sure about the 'best' name, if you understand what I mean.


    NB: of course I know that Romario and Van Basten were two different types of players, both in role and attributes :p
     
  13. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [I've gone over this w/quite a few different Brazilian football observers: Romario was what I/we called a "Brazilian-mould" spearhead centre-forward for lack of a better term in English.]
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Romario was a type we had never seen before in Holland. He made such an impression that he won the PFA-award in his first year. His combination of a small size and explosiveness was new, just as his hunger for the goal.

    But over time, also some irritations began to grow. Coaches discarded his lazyness, his habit to miss appointments and also the playing style on the pitch wasn't always appreciated. That he varied bad touches with brilliant ones was one thing, that only helped to build a certain mystique around him, but that he simply rejected to make certain runs was unacceptable for some team-mates.

    This eventually forced him out of PSV. He went to Barcelona. About the first thing that Cruijff said to him was: "Just don't try to defend". Cruijff had not the illusion that you can learn him to sweat. But over time Romario crossed the line of what was acceptable and was ousted halfway 1994-95.


    If you compare the movements and playing-style then it is easy to see that Van Basten was much more a 'conventional' Dutch 4-3-3 striker. A extremely good one of course. It meant that these strikers moved to midfield in order to create space for the wingers, or launch attacks by himself. It meant that this type is good in one-two's. It meant that this type can move to the wing itself, provide crosses etcetera. As I said before, in your terms he seemed to be a hybrid between a classic number9 and a "roaming" type.
    Romario stayed much more central on the pitch and rarely moved to the sides. His field coverage as a striker was for Dutch-terms very low. He had fewer tasks to do and if he had, he simply rejected to do them. But if he had his day, he was unstoppable in the penalty area.

    It also helped that he was part of a dominant team. PSV won three of the five championships, finished the other two times as second on one/two points distance. One of these championships was won when Romario was ruled out for more than half of the season (1991/1992). The point is: he played for a team where the balls were eventually coming to his way and the dominance also meant that it wasn't necessary to run/defend very much. That suited his game.

    edit:
    I see that you said at xtratime that it is better to compare Romario with Müller and Van Basten with Ronaldo. I fully agree with that.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Speaking about Romario, he was asked the following at the end of 1992:

    Interviewer: "In tennis there is a world ranking. On what place are you?"
    Romario: "Of the whole world? I think I'm ninth or tenth."
    Interviewer: "One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Who are they?"
    Romario: "Van Basten, one. Rijkaard, two. Bebeto, three. Four [pause], Baggio. Five, Bergkamp. Six, Matthaus. And seventh... [long pause] I am at seventh."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QktzBgmiOXI#t=354s

    He wasn't really an authority but nevertheless funny to note :p
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Since Distefanno, Puskas, Pele and Eusebio There were few names that came close to them in term of striker ability: Basten, Romario, Ronaldo then came maybe Batistuta and ... Henry? who impressed me. Baggio was a bit different (more like a 9.1/2 or 10).

    Talking about those 3 playing in Holland:
    - in term GPG of all competitions: Ronaldo (0.95) Romario (0.91) Basten (0.88)
    - ONLY in Eiredivisie: Basten (0.96) Ronaldo (0.91) Romario (0.90)

    Recently there was Van Nistelruud came close to them with 0.83
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Are you also counting the domestic cup? That is imo spoiling the statistics if you do.

    The same problem applies with European Cup statistics because the strength of the opposition a club met varied with the years (it was very dependent on the draw). In that sense, domestic league averages are somewhat more reliable because the strength of the opposition remained more or less constant (when comparing rough contemporaries; it makes less sense to compare Nordahl stats with Van Basten stats of course).

    Btw, Van Basten scored 11 goals in 17 EC matches for Ajax. Romario scored 15 in 19 matches for PSV. That is a bit better although I'm inclined to say that Van Basten's performances were more constant. The instances where Romario let his team down are infamous, and Romario played in a better team.

    And they played different, a bit like Van Persie vs Ibrahimovic.

    [​IMG]

    If one would make a heat map of Van Basten and Romario then the difference in area covered would even been greater than this I think.

    PS: I don't see Eusebio as a striker, he was much more than this.

    PS2: As pure goal-machine, Romario was better when he had his day.
     
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    First I just listed out their goals in overall and league only to see. Normally we should also add NT goals to the picture if we care for comparison, but I do not think this is the case. While I agree in general the league goals would be more or less a slight better presentation of stats, however that could be a subject of controversy i.e. player A played for a great team for a long time, and player B played for many different teams in up down seasons!
    That;s why I ONLY listed their goals in SAME LEAGUE

    In term of playing style, of course Va Basten was much more dynamic and mobile than Romario. If one will draw a heat map of those 3 in their best:
    Ronaldo (pre-injured) > Basten > Romario
    but Basten > Ronaldo (post jured)>= Romario

    Any how those 3 were great forwards that do not come often within 1 or 2 decades. Romario was a special goal scorer machine who prefered to stay inside the box or closer to goal. Ronaldo 2002-2006 was the same, in term of mobility. They both were "lazy" and relied too much on their own skills to shrug of the markers and score goals.

    Knowledge people would categorize Eusebio, Basten Ronaldo, Romario as "Center Forward" - not "striker" in this modern sense. Striker type is Owen, Crespo, Inzaghi, Trezeguet, Nistelruud ... Now a day the term "striker" is a bit ABUSIVE that indicates a player who positions more advance and score often that;s all.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I was experimenting a bit with the video-editor. This was one of my flicks. I hope some like the result.

    [ame="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq6qvr_mvb-compilation-ger92_sport"]MvB compilation GER92 - Video Dailymotion@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video@@AMEPARAM@@video[/ame]

    Description of the video:

    I have also the game in original commentary but I see someone uploaded the full 1992 game to youtube but it is taken offline by the UEFA. Strange, because the 1990WC clash between Holland and Germany is on youtube too and was uploaded earlier; this one isn't taken offline so far.
     
  20. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [IK what you're trying to say, mate; but I get SO tired of positional terminology getting co-opted when it already has another meaning in common parlance.]
     
  21. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Unlike UEFA, FIFA don't seem to mind at all when World Cup games are uploaded to YouTube. UEFA however are total assclowns in that regard. Anything from a UEFA Euro which is uploaded privately will be taken down due to UEFA's demands.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK.

    I will also make one of his euro88 performance. Because then people can see the difference in speed and mobility.

    I also saw how much Kohler and Van Basten respected each other. One of the encounters was the semi-final of Milan vs Bayern in 1990. There were some complaints about the pitch (and how the UEFA managed this), the defensive style of Bayern ("but not as negative as Mechelen", said Van Basten - Preud'homme was btw fantastic in that match) and some referee calls (some PKs not given) but there was mutual respect between those two. After the first leg of Bayern vs Milan Van Basten said (I have the reports here):
    "It is difficult to play against Kohler. He marks very tight, he is one of the better defenders around."

    Kohler: "Man, what is that guy difficult to stop. He is incredibly fast at the first few meters, is deceptively agile and technically perfect. A 'super-footballer'"

    Kohler noted though that Van Basten used his elbows but also knew that he himself was sometimes on, or over, the limit at times.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Btw, I read Kohler was once voted as best foreign player of serie a but I can't find the full list. Is it somewhere? The one on rsssf is a different one - it has not Kohler in it.
     
  24. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Not really, or Maybe not official, as I know SerieA started the "oscar del calcio" (best player prize in many categories ) by 1996. before that only the TOP SCORER prize (like WC) was recognized

    Now lookclose on 1991-1996 when Kohler played, there was many greats: Baggio, Zola, Sinori, Batistuta, and Fonseca ... in attack, and in defense Baresi Costacurta, still around
     
  25. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Those are mostly Italian players. The prize Kohler allegedly won was "best foreign player" in one season in Serie A. I remember those news, but that was 20 years ago so I don't remember what it referred to actually.

    A defensive player winning such an award in Italy ahead of offensive players perhaps not much of a shock.

    Edit: The German wikipedia on Kohler has some info, he won it in 1992 and the source given is "Autogramme", Sport-Bild 24 February 1993, page 43.
     

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