I think (as is sometimes the case on some videos - some of the Hungarian goals at Wembley in 1953 for example too) the video merges two different plays together there, looking at where the dribble starts here: Still a very good assist indeed of course, and the other dribbling was him too but just in a different part of the match. I do think in that phase of his career his dribbling could be particularly elusive though and some assists/chances created I noticed for Boca Juniors were impressive in that way. Most spectacular dribble assist could be a great topic! Although might require a lot of thought and ideally extensive research too. Cruyff would have candidates (off the top of my head vs Luxembourg in 1969 although maybe the goal was ruled out for offside - I'd have to refresh my memory; vs Feyenoord in late 1966 I think it was would probably count if the Maradona Scotland one does but I suppose both were minimal in actually going past players despite being brilliant and completely adequate to do what was was required to make the goal). Michael Laudrup vs Dynamo Kiev in 91/92 comes to mind, or others involving wingplay moreso down the left followed by a cross. I should be able to think of a lot more great candidates though, and there'll be plenty I'm not even aware of or completely forgot about too I suppose, including again from less famous players. I suppose it depends if we're judging the quality and spectularity of the assist in it's entirety (as long as dribbling is involved) or of the dribbling itself (as long as an assist results).
I think there was a thread on that exact topic, and I'm sure I'd have placed Pele first in my list and still think he seems the obvious choice to be at the top, whether or not I stick by my other estimations completely now or not. I might have put Ronaldo second too, but can't be 100% sure. Obviously Maradona should be up there somewhere.
I guess those discussions would be better continued on other threads though, so I'll add a contribution to this one with a video and grade out of 10 (which I'm trying to match to my own ratings given out for World Cup performances and a few other selected ones).... Roma (h) 87/88 I'm going to go with 8.9 out of 10, but probably it's on course for a full point less than that (still pretty good generally) until his left leg turns into a bit of wand late in the game (interesting to put the performance in context too - that they were losing by two goals before then - even if that doesn't change his actions as such) with I'd suggest one of his best ever assists, and other similarly good medium to long range passes after that. I'd say, although I know some of you will have studied his matches closer and in more depth, it looks like a 'good' performance in general from him even before the end period, but until then there's nothing tangible to show for it even if he creates a nice chance for Francini, and has various quality precise/crisp touches and nice little bits of dribbling including providing a chance for Careca that was ruled offside and dribbling on the right side of the box before trying but failing to give Careca a clear chance. From that start of the game though his touch is sharp and his ideas too I think - he's not in 'bad' form at all and I think this phase of his Napoli career is generally regarded as one of the good parts (particularly regarding passes like the one used for the assist)? I'm not sure it was prime/optimal Maradona as compared to the World Cup but I'd say it's a phase where his dribbling prowess/mobility and passing/vision are both evident to a good extent (this game fits the impression I think). Before the assist his nearest things were from set-pieces I suppose, which were all very well played and potentially dangerous. He gets fouled quite a bit when otherwise he might have had opportunities to go on with the ball which is something to consider (things weren't breaking down very much on bad touches by himself assuming none are missing and his 'off' passes/crosses were just off perfection rather than mis-cued badly) but yeah it only becomes an 8+ performance when the incisiveness goes up a notch at the end probably for me - maybe raising a full point seems extreme but with a generaly good to nearly excellent display quality wise that was all that was really missing and with the fouls received it wasn't the easiest match to play in probably. Judging by the game highlights, it'd be interesting to see Giannini's performance in full though to compare and see if he might be worth the MOTM award.
For reference, some games I put at a similar level: - Zidane vs Portugal (Euro 2000 semi-final) - Zidane vs Leverkusen (2002 CL Final) - Rivaldo vs Denmark (1998 WC) - Rivaldo vs Atletico Madrid (97/98) - this is the one I'm adding off the top of my head without previously assessing specifically to give a score, so maybe it can be a few increments higher even but I'd have to think about it and maybe not - not by a huge amount I don't think anyway - Pele vs Sweden (1958 WC Final) - Pele vs Czechoslovakia (1970 WC) - Messi vs Paraguay (2015 CA) - Xavi vs Man Utd (2011 CL Final) - Iniesta vs Man Utd (2009 CL Final) - Kempes vs Netherlands (1978 WC Final) - Cubillas vs Scotland (1978 WC) - C.Ronaldo vs Arsenal (08/09 CL) I think all those came in wins interestingly, but it confirms I see that performance as absolutely high level (once the assist had happened and other similar passes near the end to round off the display in style even if in defeat still - another of his excellent Napoli assists around that time away in Juventus also came in defeat near the end and with less time left and a bigger score to chase if still not 100% impossible!) if not absolutely highest level possible, or shown by himself, over 90 minutes.
He most certainly was, I always thought so. Perhaps Maradona has a claim of having been equally talented at that age, but what Pelé accomplished (in terms of tangible things: goals, success, trophies...) before he turned 20 is simply unreal. Also, I've always thought that Pelé is by far the player who had the best career's "first half" (say, 17 to 25 years of age). He declines after that, but nobody in history, at 25, comes close to what he did in those 8 years.
Yeah, in the Ronaldo at 23 thread I stated a few things in that respect. Difficult to really tell though.
Yeah, could be there was also a specific 'best player at 20 years old' thread or something I think somewhere. Not sure if before you joined even but I think maybe not.
Eusebio was pretty good too. I think he scored aged 19 a hat trick against Santos which was pretty much and close to unanimously the best club team in the world. To do that while on the losing end (5-3 loss) is quite impressive. 'ClubElo' doesn't include South American clubs, so I cannot compare this to Liverpool in 1966 for example (from a few years later).
Very debatable( at least at club level) Messi by 25 years old(2012)had 2 world class seasons(2006/07 and 07/08) 3 legendary seasons(08/09, 09/10 and 11/12) And 1 goat season 2010/11 In terms of players who played in top flight European football I am 100% sure nobody has reached messi's 10/11 season,I've gone through a lot of his games from that period of time and you can probably count on only 1 hand the amount of "average"games he had. He was to dominant,to consistent that is up until the 2011 copa America Also if I remember correctly messi was already considered to be an all time great when he was 23 years old I remember Alex ferguson and pep guardiola expressing this view right after the 2011 cl final and I don't think they were talking about potential. I think there is no doubt that had messi experienced a career ending injury in 2011 like mvb had before him he would've been(and rightly) considered to be a top 10 all timer. now of course at international level Pele(58-62) achieved way more than messi but he also did it with a legendary support cast that as we know was perfectly capable of winning world cups without him (If messi gets injured than it is up to NT failures aguero and higuain to step up to the plate when Pele gets injured Brazil can turn to a top 20 all timer called garrincha) I would say talking everything into consideration a 25 year old messi can match Pele of the same age
Among Italian players, apart from Rivera, Meazza was extremely accomplished by the time he turned 20 (obviously we don't have videos, sadly). Fritz Walter had spectacular goal figures by that age, although obviously in a fairly minor league. Ronaldo R9 is obviously a very good call, what about Best (I'm not sure when he was 20, but certainly when he was 23 or 24)? Michael Owen was obviously not as talented but by the timehe was 20 had been Prmir League topscorer TWICE and had scored that wonder goal at the 98 World Cup.
Yes, Eusebio didn't have the opportunity to play for Benfica as early as Pele for Santos but that sort of example (very impressive goals too for sure) suggests for peak performance level at 20 and under he'd be right up amongst the top candidates I guess. Likewise the footage of Cruyff before the end of 1966 looks to be very impressive too, with some of the goals and assists that were captured.
Enzo Scifo was another that had come to mind, but also Owen as you say. Whether Scifo was better as a very young player or around 1990 is maybe a tight call (maybe not enough footage exists to make a proper call; he was highly praised in both periods but had a dip in between of course).
I thought rating that one would be a good idea and I have actually come up with 8.2 (still very good and his use of the ball certainly stood out through the game, and arguably/potentially the moment he wasn't allowed to play on with an advantage might have resulted with the ball in the net still if he had been). This is on the scale of ratings used for WC games (so top level rather than a standard 8/10 sort of performance that might be handed out by newspapers in general) and I've got it approaching but slightly below his WC group games vs South Korea and Bulgaria I think. Anyway I do see that as a very good display, and edging the Roma game if the final 10 minutes were removed from both displays I guess, but it confirms I suppose how highly I rate his Roma game eventually (not saying definitively I think that will be his best Serie A display - I'm not sure his 84/85 game vs Lazio is available the same way to compare for example, and it seems to have potential to be considered higher and possibly likewise vs Juventus that season too?).
I meant the same calendar year, not the same season sorry (home game from 85/86 with the famous dribble and free-kick from inside the box in a 1-0 win).
I agree with many of the things you say, but for me Pelé's career up until he was 25 is unmatched (by the way, if Messi had quit after the 2010-11 season I would have put him in the top 20/25, not in the top 10 where he rightfully belongs now). It's also quite difficult to discern exactly whether a season was "legendary" or "goat", for example. It's true that Messi has a claim of being the best club footballer of all time, but so has Pelé (they're probably more or less on the same level in this regard). On the other hand, Pelé's national team career absolutely blows away Messi's. True that Pelé had legendary teammates, but he did legendary things (i.e. exactly what a goat player is supposed to do under those conditions) while Messi never showed anything more than "very good" (and at times "plainly average") things at the World Cup. Especially before 25, when Pelé had won a World Cup with a great individual performance, had been top goalscorer in a Copa America, had participated to a second World Cup triumph scoring a wonder goal in the only full match he played, was the all time top goalscorer for the National team etc.
I'm not really so sure look r9 finished 12th in fifa best 100 players of the 20th century Bearing in mind the vote was taken in 1999 when the brazilian was 23 years old Now as much as I like r9 I know he never had a season as good as Messi 10/11 Perhaps one could argue Messi 08-10 Is below r9 (96-98) but where Messi really separates himself is 2011. you have to take into account that LM10 in 10/11 was a goat dribbler(arguably THE best/consistent dribbler European football had ever seen) (His best runs from 10/11-truly spectacular) he was a goat scorer( goal a game in the league and cl top scorer and in the most important games it was him who changed the course of games single handedly vs real Madrid/Manchester United BIG teams) And as a playmaker it was probably his best season in his first peak period(2009-2012) over the last 2(arguably 3 ) seasons he has taken his playmaking to greater heights but his goal scoring has taken a hit. In 10/11 he ticked all boxes Dribbling:10/10 Goal scoring:9/10(his tally of 53 goals is 20 goals below his all time record of 73 but then Messi scored more important goals in 10/11 then he did a season later) Creating:7.5/10( when compared to top tier passers like platini,zico,Maradona 87-90) If I was to rank the top 3 players in the world at the time(2011) from an all time perspective it would look something like this: Messi top 10-15 on par or just beneath Eusebio,George Best,platini,Ronaldo fenomeno CR7 top 20-25 on par or just beneath Romario,van Basten,gullit,Baggio,m. Laudrup,Zidane xavi( top 35-40) On par or just beneath Ronaldinho,Rivaldo,Falcao(brazil/roma) etc In 2016 It would probably be Messi(top 5 or 3 all time) CR7(top 10 all time) Xavi(top 20-25 all time)
Yes, against Hungary for ECQ (Elo rank 6) he was 19 too. Eusebio should be a solid lock, given the hat trick against (possibly) the best team in the world at that age, and his club still lost with 5-3 (so they had not the upper hand I think). In 1964 world soccer had a piece about how much more cohesive club teams tend to be (esp. with short preparation). I tend to agree with your match grades by the way. I thought for the Torino game something like a 9/10 instead of a perfect 10/10. An 8/10 is too low perhaps
Maybe 8 (or 8.2 that I gave even) could be too low - there were some impressive moments I didn't mention like the wingplay on the right and cross that a team-mate headed down for example. I'm sure I could easily go with 8 and a half to the nearest half mark anyway. Probably my impression on that basis would be 9 for that Roma game though indeed - that one got me thinking about best ever performances in defeat - not that I'm saying that is a major candidate for best ever necessarily and I already gave Kaka's 2005 CL Final game a higher mark of course (was that a draw or defeat though really?). It also depends on the scale each individual works to of course. I even had Maradona vs Belgium closer to 9.5 than 10 so whether that means I'd never hand out a 10 to nearest half mark (I would to nearest full mark in that case and a few others I think) I'm not sure! I seem to remember I said I'd give Rivera vs Man Utd in 68/69 (away) around 8 and a half so if I'm being properly consistent I should rate that similarly to Maradona vs Torino maybe - whether I plan to do less Youtube videos than I was thinking before or not now I probably will get that one done before very long still (I know you've seen that game yourself anyway though).
I will probably start working on this thread again, though at the moment I don't know exactly if this week or in the next month; it's very time-consuming to narrate the time i.e. exact seconds for every action. I will probably change my discourse style into a less specific narration, that way it'll be much less time-consuming, and I'll find the time to work on this thread. In a nutshell: I've been meaning to work on this thread, I just really haven't found the time to work on it.
OK, it are very interesting analysis to see, even if you're sometimes too harsh or soft (but that's inevitable). Compared to so many legends (e.g. Cruijff outside his 1970 - 1974 years) he receives so many free rides in years where it is in reality less clear, even that he outperformed stars in his own league. With 'free rides' I mean the years 1979, 1984, 1985 (discussion here), 1989 and 1990 (to a considerably lesser extent the years 1981, 1988). 1979 is one of those years where Zico is often sold short (compared to his earlier and later years), just because he was this time 5th in the SApotY, aided by a sending off in the Copa America. Meanwhile, this was one of those years where Zico performed on a good standard against state opponents (including semi-amateur teams), nationwide opponents, national teams and against European clubs in friendlies and friendly tours (PSG, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid). Anyway, in earlier posts in this thread I mentioned a few really good games (you tend to agree) and despite room for perception it's interesting to see.
I just found this topic and further evaluation would be appreciated. About this particular game (Napoli-Torino) the consensus by the match reports and grades of the Italian press is that it was decent/good performance, usually rated between 6 to 6.5. There were certainly more favorable matches that were regarded as superior and available to review online I think, like Napoli-Empoli, Udinese-Napoli, Napoli-Sampdoria, Fiorentina-Napoli (some were cut short and edited to 45 minutes or the most entertaining half was shown due to TV broadcast restrictions).
@leadleader this thread has been bumped up after nearly two years. If you have maradona performances for Napoli that are not easy to find (especially from 84/85)could you post them along with your analysis Thanks
There is no such thing as his best ever, he was simply just praised and received one of the highest grades that were given across different Italian publications. There were equally other matches where he was rated the same or highly praised. Only 4 matches (and not all in their entirety) have surfaced in 1984/85.