Maradona's 1985-90 Career: video documentary,

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by leadleader, Aug 28, 2016.

  1. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #1 leadleader, Aug 28, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
    The aim of the thread is simple: to document all the available video of Maradona's Napoli and Argentina career; only the available full games. In that regard, YouTube offers a rather healthy collection of "Maradona's every touch vs. X or Y" type videos to watch. By watching those type of videos, it should be possible to (at least in essence) watch Maradona's full game, in a matter of 3 to 10 minutes per game.

    I should make it clear, though, that those type of (youtube) videos probably or almost certainly do not include some or many of the bad moments by Maradona, because fanboys are known to not include the bad moments of their beloved idols; but at least, those videos definitely include the good moments by Maradona, and so an average performance by Maradona *as portrayed or documented by the potentially-biased youtube video* arguably was in reality a below-average performance, when accounting for the bad moments that are not included in the pro-Maradona youtube videos.

    Overall: essentially I want to document his dangerous passes (total attempts per game; successful ones per game); his dribbling ability (dribbling runs attempted per game; dribbling runs completed per game); his "flair" skills (total attempts; compared to the successful ones); etc. Maradona's work-rate is virtually impossible to measure, because youtube videos do not include movement when not on the ball, thus making it virtually impossible to measure the off-the-ball impact of the player in question.
     
    el-torero and carlito86 repped this.
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Are you going to start in chronological order(from 84/85 onwards) and which competitions are you mainly going to be assessing

    I would appreciate if you could start with his performances vs big teams(juve,Milan,inter,verona etc) at league level
    And then his performances vs big sides in the uefa cup vs bayern Munich,bordeux and also real Madrid(European cup)

    Note:
    Why did you stop posting comps in the r9-romario thread....are you going to go through his 97/98 games?
     
    el-torero repped this.
  3. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    No order at all. I'm a disorganized person with a good memory, but thoroughly disorganized: that's how I'll be conducting my own contributions to this thread. However, if you want to post your videos (contributions to this thread) in chronological order -- that's totally ok with me.

    It was consuming a lot of my time, and eventually I just stopped. That being said, I hope to be able to take this thread to the distance.
     
    el-torero and carlito86 repped this.
  4. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #4 leadleader, Aug 28, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
    NOTE:

    10 out of 10 is "legendary."
    9 out of 10 is "great."
    8 out of 10 is "good."
    7 out of 10 is "above average."
    6 out of 10 is "barely above average."
    5 out of 10 is "average."
    4 out of 10 is "barely below average."
    3 out of 10 is "below average."
    2 out of 10 is "abysmal."
    1 out of 10 is "inexplicably bad."

    NOTE:

    "Boring play,"
    code-word for (1) skills that any relatively world class player can easily and consistently produce; (2) just boring sideways passing; (3) essentially the type of thing that is never or rarely associated to Maradona.

    "Time segment,"
    code-word for the chronological order of the plays; separate plays are never included into the same paragraph, but one "time segment" can contain several plays (as opposed to one play per "time segment"), and one paragraph (within the specific "time segment") will only ever contain one play.

    FIRST ENTRY:

    UEFA Cup 1986/1987: Toulous vs Napoli (1-0)

    Pre-match: Napoli had won (1-0) at home, and a mere "draw" would've sent Napoli through to the second round.

    Post-match: Napoli gets eliminated after a PK shootout; Maradona failed to score an "easy" one-on-one against Toulouse's GK *a goal which would've surely eliminated Toulouse* and was overall rather abysmal in terms of dribbling and passing.



    0:16 (ends at 0:24)

    Good defensive effort by Maradona; it looks like it should've been a corner kick, but Napoli was awarded the spot kick, so Maradona in effect “won the ball” for Napoli.

    0:24 (ends at 0:51)

    Good ball retention skills by Maradona; successfully pulled off a “sombrero” flick and then was fouled (albeit he did “dived” before getting fouled).

    0:51 (ends at 0:56)

    Tried another “sombrero” flick, but this time he gave the ball/possession away.

    0:56 (ends at 1:05)

    Bad pass by Maradona; gave possession away cheaply (after already doing the same in the preceding play).

    1:05 (ends at 1:16)

    An easy pass and some abysmal defending by Toulouse, resulted in Maradona enjoying a one-on-one against Toulouse’s goalkeeper, but Maradona failed to convert the “easy” goal.

    1:16 (ends at 1:52)

    “Boring” sideways pass. Followed by more “boring” tentative play.

    1:52 (ends at 2:01)

    Average pass by Maradona (because Toulouse’s defense is abysmal), but a potentially dangerous pass by Maradona – in the end, Maradona’s pass was not good enough to beat a visibly mediocre defense… (I honestly think that a passer like Michael Laudrup 1992-93 would’ve destroyed Toulouse’s mediocre defense, in that same situation.)

    2:01 (ends at 2:18)

    Horrible pass by Maradona; gave possession away cheaply (again).

    2:18 (ends at 2:52)

    Boring tentative “sideways” play.

    2:52 (ends at 3:41)

    Boring play.

    Followed by an exciting attempt at dribbling; Maradona could not dribble past a single player (and therefore the run can't or shouldn't be defined as a "dribbling run"), but he was fouled, and he retained the ball; this should be defined as “ball retention ability” and not as “dribbling ability,” seeing how Maradona failed to dribbled past one single opponent. That being said, it was a good and exciting piece of ball retention ability.

    3:41 (ends at 4:20)

    Boring play.

    Followed by another ball retention ability; this ball retention ability was boring, and consisted of Maradona embellishing (diving) what was a totally normal challenge.

    4:20 (ends at 4:57)

    Boring play.

    Followed by a situation in which Maradona received a good pass, but then Maradona made nothing out of the pass, and in fact, Maradona ended up losing possession of the ball, and then fouling the Toulouse player who now had the ball.

    4:57 (ends at 5:08)

    Attempts to dribble, but again looses possession.

    5:08 (ends at 5:52)

    Boring play.

    5:52 (ends at 6:10)

    Maradona easily dispossessed (again!!!), but then he fights for the ball and wins it back (unlike the other many times that he was dispossessed in this game).

    6:10 (ends at 6:18)

    Long ball attempt: bad long ball, gave possession away cheaply.

    6:18 (ends at 6:25)

    Gave possession away cheaply (again!!!).

    6:25 (ends at 6:33)

    Boring play.

    6:33 (ends at 6:48)

    Defends and wins the ball, and then produces a “roulette” and gets fouled; impressive display if defensive ability followed (in seamless fluidity) by impressive technique.

    Final Analysis,

    Maradona was abysmal when close to the PK area; missed an “easy goal” with only the GK to beat. Offered absolutely no end-product with his passing nor with his dribbling; completed zero dribbling runs; was easily dispossessed all over the pitch. Overall, Maradona’s tackling ability was arguably better than his actual ball retention ability, but he did produced 2 moments of magic: the sombrero flick at the beginning of the game (0:24) and the roulette skill at the end of the game (6:33), and when you watch the typical Maradona youtube video, those 2 plays will be included, but the abysmal passing, the total absence of actual dribbling ability, and Maradona getting easily dispossessed all over the pitch -- that obviously isn’t included in the typical Maradona youtube video.

    6 out of 10 performance (relative to average players).

    3 out of 10 performance (relative to world class players).
     
    el-torero repped this.
  5. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #5 leadleader, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
    NOTE:

    10 out of 10 is "legendary."
    9 out of 10 is "great."
    8 out of 10 is "good."
    7 out of 10 is "above average."
    6 out of 10 is "barely above average."
    5 out of 10 is "average."
    4 out of 10 is "barely below average."
    3 out of 10 is "below average."
    2 out of 10 is "abysmal."
    1 out of 10 is "inexplicably bad."

    NOTE:

    "Boring play,"
    code-word for (1) skills that any relatively world class player can easily and consistently produce; (2) just boring sideways passing; (3) essentially the type of thing that is never or rarely associated to Maradona. "Boring plays" will be mentioned in the same paragraph if they happen one after the other.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play = 4 consecutive-but-separate "boring plays."

    NOTE:

    "Not boring plays,"
    Not-boring-plays will be mentioned in separate paragraphs; one paragraph per each not-boring-play.

    SECOND ENTRY:

    UEFA Cup 1986/1987: Napoli vs. Toulouse (1-0)

    Pre-match: Napoli playing (at home) the first round of the UEFA Cup.

    Post match: Napoli won (1-0) at home, but Maradona was not good, and Maradona was not involved in Napoli's goal.



    *0:00*

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play = 5 consecutive-but-separate boring plays.

    *1:19*

    Defensive play; won the ball in a very good situation, however, he quickly delivered a cross (clearly with the intention of catching Toulouse on the back-foot), but the cross was a very bad one; so good defensive work, but bad offensive output, in this play.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play = 3 consecutive-but-separate boring plays.

    *1:52*

    Free-kick attempt; easy save for Toulouse’s GK.

    *2:00 / 2:48*

    Good technique-play, but bad cross.

    Good technique-play (his signature play where he starts “juggling the ball” in the wide areas of the pitch, to then cross the ball), but bad cross.

    Bad Corner-kick, and the rebound/deflection of the cross landed (luckily) on Maradona’s feet again, and then Maradona immediately gave the ball away very cheaply.

    *2:48*

    Exciting ball retention run, immediately followed by a bad pass; Maradona gave possession away again; cheaply again.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    *3:33*

    His signature “juggling the ball, sends the cross” play, and this time the cross was a good one, forcing the GK to come out of his comfort zone.

    Boring play.

    *3:47*

    Foul on Maradona; good ball retention ability.

    Boring play.


    *4:09*


    Tried a sombrero, but he miscalculated and he ran out of space to use – the ball went out of the pitch, and Maradona “dived” (embellished a contact that didn’t existed) in an attempt to salvage his miscalculation. The referee did not fall for Maradona’s tactic/trap, and awarded the ball to Toulouse (which was the correct call, in this instance). Of course, Maradona in his extroverted-personality fashion flatly disagreed with the referee (who, again; most definitely made the correct call).

    *4:35*

    Good ball retention, but again you can see that Maradona struggles to “dribble past” his opponents; he retains the possession of the ball (because he gets fouled), but he doesn’t appear to have the physical ability of actually dribbling past his opponents.

    *5:09*

    Gave away possession, very cheaply: bad pass.

    *5:34*

    Again, gave away the possession, very very cheaply.

    *5:41*

    Very good pass for Maradona (better than any pass by Maradona himself so far), and Maradona finds himself with only Toulouse’s GK to beat – Maradona failed to score the “easy” goal.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    *7:02*

    Long ball attempt: bad long ball.

    *7:13*

    Signature “juggles the ball; crosses the ball” and this time the cross is perfect (albeit the defending by Toulouse is just abysmal stuff, compared to modern teams); Toulouse’s GK came out to collect the cross, but the cross was good enough that it managed to evade the GK – Napoli very nearly scored a goal, and this must count as a “dangerous pass” for Maradona; albeit, again, Toulouse’s defense is really bad; I mean, the defending on that Maradona-cross was plain mediocre defending, truly cringe-worthy stuff. Good cross by Maradona, but it looks a lot better than it really was, because Toulouse defended very badly in that play; almost amateur-like.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    *8:17*

    His first “dribbling run” of the game: a completely forgettable “dribbling run,” but so far it’s the closest thing to a “dribbling run” by Maradona.

    Boring play.

    *8:37*

    Good ball retention; foul on Maradona. Maradona then immediately produced a bad pass, giving the possession to Toulouse.

    *9:08*

    Good ball retention.

    Boring play.

    *9:21*

    Foul by Maradona.

    *9:31*

    Foul by Maradona.

    *9:48*

    Good play; but boring.

    *9:58*

    Bad pass: gave possession away cheaply.

    Boring play. Boring play.

    *10:51*

    Dispossessed: gave possession away cheaply.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    *12:08*

    Maradona’s 2nd dribbling run of the game, albeit Maradona’s opponent quickly recovered and Maradona was slow enough that said opponent was side-by-side with Maradona (when back in 1986, said opponent would’ve been left “in the dust” after Maradona ran past him).

    Boring play. Boring play.

    *13:00*

    Maradina tried his signature “juggle ball and then cross the ball” but it didn’t worked against the average or mediocre defense of Toulouse; Maradona again gave away possession, cheaply.

    Final Analysis,

    Maradona's passing output was absolutely abysmal, albeit he did created one dangerous chance, albeit at the expense of the many passes that were bad. Only two dribbling runs, neither of which was the least bit "noticeable." Missed a one-on-one against Toulouse's GK. Overall: Napoli won the game, but Maradona was not involved in the goal.

    Ball Retention Score: 8 out of 10.

    Passing Output Score: 2 out of 10.

    Dribbling Output Score: 3 out of 10.

    6 out of 10 performance (relative to average players).

    3 out of 10 performance (relative to world class players).
     
    el-torero repped this.
  6. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #6 leadleader, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
    (May 2, 1987)
    Serie A 1986/1987: Como vs. Napoli (1-1)


    Pre-match: Napoli (1st place) playing the 28th Round of the season, against 9th place Como.



    *0:00 / 0:46*

    Boring play.

    Maradona wins the ball; good defending.

    Good run, forced the GK into coming out of his comfort zone, winning a corner-kick for his team.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    *0:46 / 1:13*

    Decent ball retention.

    Bad pass; giving away the possession cheaply.

    Dispossessed, this time not cheaply, but he was dispossessed after attempting to run past his opponent.

    *1:13 / 1:43*

    Boring play.

    Dispossessed again, and rather easily at that. Maradona complains about being fouled, but the plain truth is that he was cleanly and fairly dispossessed – Maradona displaying “diva-like” behavior here.

    Maradona wins the ball; good defending.

    *1:43 / 2:27*

    Bad pass by Maradona; gave the ball away cheaply.

    Boring play. Boring play.

    Dispossessed easily again.

    Boring play.

    Dispossessed easily again; tried to “dive” but the referee was not fooled by the trick (good call by the ref there, to be honest).

    Gave the ball away cheaply.

    Gave the ball away cheaply.

    An easy pass by Maradona almost becomes an assist; horrible defending by Como, but Napoli failed to convert the chance.

    *2:27 / 3:22*

    Half-chance created by Maradona; but again – absolutely HORRIBLE defending by Como; Maradona was completely free-from-shadow, in an era of the pitch where he should by all means have one shadow or two shadows surrounding him.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Final Analysis,

    Average ball retention. Below-average passing. Average dribbling. And against a team that, going by the video, was pretty mediocre defensive-wise. If this was the standard of "defensive ability" that Maradona and Platini had to play against, then I'm sorry to be so blunt about it -- but in many occasions it looks plain amateur-like; tactics evidently evolved substantially in the early 1990s.

    Ball Retention Score: 4 out of 10.

    Passing Output Score: 3 out of 10.

    Dribbling Output Score: 5 out of 10.

    6 out of 10 performance (relative to average players).

    3 out of 10 performance (relative to world class players).
     
    el-torero repped this.
  7. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #7 leadleader, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
    (June 13, 1987)
    Coppa Italia Final 1986/1987: Atalanta vs. Napoli (0-1)

    Pre-match: Napoli (1st place) playing against Atalanta (2nd worst team of the league).



    *0:00 / 2:36*

    Good play; plays a one-two and then shots at goal; GK blocked the shot.

    Dispossessed pretty easily.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Decent slalom-run (but didn’t dribbled past a single opponent), followed by a good powerful shot on goal; the GK again blocked the shot.

    *2:36 / 3:57*

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    *3:57 / 4:54*

    Good play, but bad cross; and by “bad” I mean that the cross went out of the pitch because of how bad it was.

    Boring play. Boring play.

    Good play, and good cross; created an arguable “half-chance,” albeit Atalanta’s defense reacted well.

    *4:54 / 5:46*

    Boring play.

    Impressive (but simple) display of technique and ball control, albeit the chance that he created was at the very most a half-chance. Also, Atalanta’s defense was extremely abysmal in that play – Maradona literally ran (not very fast mind you) into a half-empty penalty area; really amateur-like defending, and it seems to be a constant theme with many of the Serie A teams of that time.

    Was sharp and stole the ball away from a sloppy defender; again, bad defending very much seems to be routine in the Serie A of the time – but Maradona stole the ball, and ran off at high speed, against just 2 of Atalanta’s defenders; a clear counter attack; in the end Maradona created another half-chance (the angle was too difficult and too distant to define that chance as a “clear chance”), and again Napoli failed to convert the half-chance.

    *5:46 / 7:47*

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Good defensive play, dealing with an opposing cross.

    Dispossessed rather easily.

    Good ball retention, albeit purely based on his athleticism; he basically outran his opponents, but didn’t actually do anything impressive in terms of actual technical ability.

    Good slalom-run (albeit he didn’t dribbled past anybody), with which he created an angle for a shot; the shot itself, however, was easily blocked by a wall of defenders.

    Final Analysis,

    Created two half-chances in consecutive fashion (if the video is indeed honest, and didn't ignored any other plays in-between the 2 half-chances), but overall Maradona lacked the "flair" that is so readily/typically associated with him: no sombreros; no roulettes; no impressive pass; no impressive dribbling run; no impressive half-turns; nothing extravagant, except for the one impressive (but simple) skill with which he created the first half-chance, out of the two half-chances that he created.

    A good performance obviously, but in my opinion, I don't define that as a truly "stellar" performance; there's just not enough end product, not enough creativity, not enough flair, not enough entertainment, given the creative license that Napoli invested in him. Napoli won the game, but Maradona was not involved in the goal.

    Overall; I just don't see the genius technician that everybody talks about; his best plays are by far defined by his athleticism (when he is fit), and not by his technique. In this game he was fit enough that he could run at defenses (without actually dribbling past any actual defenders), and he was good; he created at least 2 half-chances, plus another arguable half-chance. But when Maradona isn't fit, or when he doesn't appear to be 85% fit, he tends to produce the same disappointing technique-wise performance (relative to great technicians), but without the athletic factor that elevates him into a legendary player (relative to great technicians).

    Ball Retention Score: 7 out of 10.

    Flair Factor Score: 5 out of 10.

    Athletic Factor Score: 9 out of 10.

    Passing Output Score: 5 out of 10.

    Dribbling Output Score: 5 out of 10.

    9 out of 10 performance
    (relative to average players).

    7 out of 10 performance
    (relative to world class players).
     
    el-torero repped this.
  8. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #8 leadleader, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
    (November 9, 1986)
    Serie A 1986/1987: Juventus vs. Napoli (1-3)



    Pre-match: Napoli (1st pace) playing against Juventus (2nd place), although this game was merely the 9th Round of the season.

    *0:00 / 4:00*

    Boring. Boring.

    Exciting run; dribbled past one defender, but then immediately lost the ball to the 2nd defender; the run ended in nothing.

    Stole the ball, and then purely outran (didn’t dribbled) the 2 Juventus players close to him; unfortunately he then immediately gave the ball away with a misplaced pass, and the run ended in nothing.

    Boring.

    Got dispossessed, but not easily.

    Tested Juve’s GK with a powerful shot; the powerful shot was the result of a deflection, after a Maradona free-kick had hit the wall and deflected right back at Maradona, who then hit the powerful shot with his first-touch.

    Boring. Boring.

    Gave possession away cheaply.

    Good run where Maradona dribbled past one opponent, but then immediately lost the ball against the 2nd opponent – the run ended in nothing.

    His ball-control failed him, and the ball went out of bounds; it wasn’t exactly “easy” to control the ball that Maradona failed to control, but it also wasn’t exactly a difficult ball to control/trap. Plus Maradona was free-from-shadow when that happened; I'd definitely expect a lot better from the purported GOAT technician.

    Was dispossessed in a bad area of the pitch.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Good first-touch control, but then immediately produced a bad pass; gave the ball away cheaply.

    Boring play.

    Easily dispossessed.

    Bad pass; gave the ball away cheaply.

    *4:00 / 4:52*

    Boring play.

    Good “stationary skill” but then was immediately dispossessed rather easily when he dribbled directly into the path of a Juve player – good skill, but then he gets immediately (and easily) dispossessed, which has happened in a lot in this game.

    His first-touch control failed him (again), and he gave the ball away; albeit, to be fair, perhaps he was fouled in that play, but the foul apparently was not given?

    Good pass, but the pass didn’t really created anything truly measurable/real.

    Good ball retention, and good pass (but quite boring to watch).

    *4:52 /6:42*

    Boring play.

    Ball retention (quite average).

    Boring play. Boring play.

    Gets fouled after receiving a good pass, in a good position; followed by a good free-kick from Maradona, whom tested the GK.

    Received a good pass inside of the PK area, and then he tried to beat the GK, but the GK blocked the effort.

    *6:42 / 8:43*

    Tried his signature “juggling the ball and then crossing the ball” and it created palpable danger – the fact that defenders didn’t seemed to ever have a truly reliable reaction against what was a very predictable “skill” by Maradona, in my opinion is a telling sign of an arguably lack of sophistication in the defensive tactics of Juventus and in the defensive tactics of most of the teams that Maradona was playing against. And sure, the signature “skill” of Maradona could definitely work against a well organized defense, but honestly, Maradona shouldn’t be creating that much (palpable) danger by simply juggling-and-crossing the ball from wide areas of the pitch; crossing the ball simply should not create that much danger, that easily.

    Off-target pass.

    Tactical foul on Maradona; followed by a disappointing free-kick.

    Tactical foul on Maradona (again); good ball retention by Maradona.

    Boring play. Boring play.

    Bad cross.

    Boring play.

    Defensive play: won the ball, but then couldn’t dribble past the (other) incoming defenders – in the end he won a corner-kick for Napoli, which at least is some form of “potential end product."

    *8:43 / 10:34*

    Dispossessed.

    Was involved in one of Napoli’s goals: his corner-kick was the pre-assist, and the assist itself was a header-pass. Maradona was involved in the goal, but he was involved in the most “boring” way possible: a corner-kick pre-assist… That’s about as unimpressive as a pre-assist can get, but Maradona was in fact “involved” in the goal.

    Good play (but rather unimpressive play) where he created something of a half-chance. Also: terrible defending by Juventus – it really was an easy situation to defend/contain, but Juventus found the way of making a complete mess out of it.

    Boring play.

    Won the ball, but then immediately lost the ball himself – ended in nothing; zero-sum game (as was the case in the vast majority of his runs, in this game).

    Final Analysis,

    Just thoroughly unimpressive stuff: when he does something relatively impressive, he then immediately delivers a bad pass, or he then immediately gets easily dispossessed by some other incoming defender -- he repeatedly fails to dribble past more than just one defender; and he rarely dribbles at all, truth be told. His passing was boring. His purported "flair" was nowhere to be found in that game (and in many other of his Napoli games). I just don't understand the fascination with this player at club level; so many of his club games are genuinely BORING AND REPETITIVE to watch. Overall; it definitely wasn't a bad performance, but was it a good performance?

    Ball Retention Score: 7 out of 10.

    Flair Factor Score: 5 out of 10.

    Athletic Factor Score: 7 out of 10.

    Passing Output Score: 5 out of 10.

    Dribbling Output Score: 5 out of 10.

    8 out of 10 performance
    (relative to average players).

    6 out of 10 performance
    (relative to world class players).
     
    el-torero repped this.
  9. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This is stellar work, man. You should create a site to keep all your work together. This is valuable insight for those who have never actually seen him, and only read about him, or watched the very best highlights of him.
     
    el-torero and leadleader repped this.
  10. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I was very surprised when I started investigating Maradona's "complete games" (as opposed to compilation videos). The vast majority of the available ones on youtube, are not good performances, but rather "above average" or "plain average." It really is nothing short of awesome, just how powerful the myth or propaganda behind a player can be; great World Cup 1986, but his Serie A exploits (for the most part) are ridiculously below the scintillating form that he displayed at Mexico'86.
     
    el-torero repped this.
  11. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Indeed. I think a lot of legends get their status from the lack of scrutiny, which is why I have a lot of respect for CR7 and LM10's legacy. They're scrutinized far more than any legend I know. When you see the analytical acrobats people go through to disprove their legacy, it's very clear other legends do not have to suffer the same ordeal.
     
  12. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    We never see Maradona, Ronaldo9 or Zidane scrutinized anywhere near the same way as the legacy of Messi and C.Ronaldo are scrutinized. People are too blinded by nostalgia for that. If we did scrutinize the former three players, anyone with an unbiased mind would come to the brutal conclusion that both Messi and C.Ronaldo are far superior players in terms of consistency across their careers.
     
  13. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    #13 comme, Aug 30, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
    Not commenting about the assessments of the matches but the www.footballia.net website will be helpful for this. Think they have about 60 complete Maradona games on here (among 3000 complete games).
     
    Estel and leadleader repped this.
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That 1984-85 match against Udinese is a good match as is the 1986 (?) against Torino. The 1986 match against Juventus too I thought (even though it also shows he did play with capable players).

    Interesting to think that 1980s and 1990s all-time lists usually had 40-50% included in the top 10 or top 20 who never showed their best in the World Cup (including Puskas, Di Stefano, Best, Mathhews maybe even Rivera at times etc.)
     
  15. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yes, those 2 are good games, albeit good in a "not really special" type of way (in my opinion). Which is also how I feel about his performances vs. Juventus: some are good, but even the good ones are underwhelming when you think about how Maradona is supposed to be "the master of flair."

    I'm selecting the games randomly, but from the same season, so I'm guessing that I'll randomly select some better performances eventually, but so far, it's quite disappointing: lots of bad passes and gets dispossessed far too easily given his "GOAT technique" status. Also, the "fouls against him" are nowhere near as brutal as the Maradona narrative typically depicts.
     
  16. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    These are the worst analyses I've ever read, in so many ways. But in true leadleader fashion he make them so long (in a style that reading makes you want to die) that only really dedicated people with a lot of spare time are going to bother writing proper corrections.

    And I dont even think Maradona played well in the games against Toulouse or Como (but he did against Juventus)
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, I will wait. I do agree he is way too often mentioned as a top two dribbler all time. There is no substantial base (for ex. dribble goals) for putting him a level above others in that respect. Compared to players who played in a comparable era.

    I wanted to mention a few games that are worth a look.
     
  18. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Some context (As this thread is dissecting every bad play) so we have a reference point for how normal or not this is.

    Messi bad touches/dispossessions since 2010: 1211
    Inaccurate crosses: 459
    Inaccurate short passes: 2663
    Inaccurate long passes: 196

    Total losses of the ball since 2010: 4529
    Average per game: 14

    (Does not include losing the ball while dribbling)
     
  19. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #19 leadleader, Sep 1, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
    Since we do not have the numbers for Maradona; just what "context" is it that you're offering there?? Maradona's passing was quite off (at least in those games) compared to players like Platini or Laudrup. The self-evident truth is that Maradona was not in great form in many of those matches; plain and simple.

    You find my extremely lazy-and-simplistic writing, is difficult to read and requires lots of spare time to dissect?? My "analyses" have been extremely rushed (and extremely simplistic in style) efforts, worked with very little time; I'm not going to apologize for making 2 mistakes out of more than 185+ actions (so far) -- that's less than 2% of the total content that I've both watched and narrated (as best as I could - without audio). And no: extremely basic use of vocabulary is not difficult to read, does not make you want to die, and does not require "a lot of spare time" to correct/dissect.

    Please tell me, are there any other mistakes that I should know about? I have narrated over 185 actions, so 2 mistakes doesn't prove much of anything, really. If you find any other mistakes, I'll fix that as quickly as I find the time.
     
  20. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #20 leadleader, Sep 1, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
    (October 5, 1986)
    Serie A 1986/1987: Napoli vs. Torino (3-1) Round 4,




    *0:00 / 2:36*

    Boring play. Boring play.

    Nice pass, albeit nothing dangerous; just a nice “sideways” pass (that any remotely world class player could do).

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Good-but-not-great FK pass, (because of a lucky deflection or a lucky pass; difficult to say given the lack of a replay) becomes the pre-assist for one of Napoli’s goals.

    Tried a relatively difficult pass; the pass did not reach the target (a defender got to it first).

    Boring play.

    Foul on, after Maradona tried to dribble past his marker (Maradona had not dribbled past a single player, prior to getting fouled). Followed by an ordinary FK pass.

    Good first-touch pass, followed by a return pass (to Maradona), and the play looked promising but then Maradona was rather immediately dispossessed.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Easily dispossessed; very easily, actually. ~ 2:01 / 2:06

    Foul by (but good hard-work there by Maradona).

    Dangerous pass for Maradona, but perhaps the pass was a bit too powerful/long for any player to reach it (though, I do wonder if Maradona in his World Cup 86 form was fast enough to reach that pass; though to be fair, Maradona was very fast in this game).

    Bad cross by Maradona, under no defensive pressure at all; very very tame; essentially he passed the ball to the GK.

    Boring play? Looked like it could’ve been more, but the video quickly cuts out of the play, so it’s difficult to say if it was anything more than just another boring play. Boring play.

    *2:36 / 5:36*

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Very good pass, it could’ve easily been an assist, albeit I must be clear that scoring the goal was relatively difficult (it was not an “easy goal” by any means). ~ 2:57 / 3:06

    Good ball retention here, but in (what seems to be) typical Maradona fashion – he’s mostly outrunning opponents that are not in front of him; it’s efficient ball retention, but it should not be defined as “dribbling ability.” Somewhat exciting, but still lacking “flair” in my book. Overall, the ball retention run (that some would define that as a “dribbling run”) was finished with a decidedly tame cross.

    Off-target FK (from a very good spot).

    His signature “juggle the ball; cross the ball” flick, but this time it was a (another) tame/slow cross.

    Boring play.

    Another ball retention run (that some would define as a “dribbling” run). Very much seems to be his main skill: he uses his right leg/foot to essentially block the opponent, and continues running horizontally towards his left (using his left foot) – but he doesn’t actually challenges his opponent directly, the way a classical dribbler would tend to do; it’s tentative, cautious, and not at all what I would define as a “flair” dribbler. Maradona didn’t actually dribbled past anybody in that run, as far as I’m concerned – but he did finished his “ball retention run” with a good cross, though the cross was intercepted by a defender. ~ 3:31 / 3:43

    A skillful “sombrero” skill, which he used to dribble past one opponent, and which is the type of skill that I’d expect a player with the reputation of Maradona, to use far more often than just the one time per every 90 minutes of play. And again, his “dribbling ability” is essentially him trying to use the right-side of his body in order to preemptively block his opponent, which then forces him into dribbling only towards his left (because the right-portion of his body is restricted by the fact that he’s *always* using it as a shield), and so the best Maradona can do is “dribble” left, and left, and left, and then try to cross the ball (at the end of the “dribbling” run). In this case, the cross at the end of the run was excellent, and it was either an assist or it was ruled off for some reason; I cannot tell for sure, as the video has no audio, but it appears to be that the referee called a foul just outside of the PK area (therefore undoing the final cross). The FK that followed was rather disappointing. ~ 3:42 / 4:04

    (The run above is one of the very few that I define as a proper “dribbling run,” albeit that run I think largely explains why he has so few “dribbling goals” at Serie A level; his “dribbling style” requires him to be absolutely fit, otherwise, his opponents were familiar with his “always left” dribbling style, which is a style of dribbling that heavily declines when Maradona doesn’t quite have the devastating speed to just diagonally-left “outrun/dribble” his opponents. It’s a very physical style of dribbling that will heavily decline depending on Maradona’s fitness; compared to classical dribbling, which is definitely less cautious/tentative than Maradona's style, and which is definitely not as dependent on pure fitness the way Maradona's style clearly is.)

    Maradona steals the ball (after some mediocre defending by Torino), and sends in a dangerous (but easy) low cross; the cross was intercepted by a defender.

    Foul by.

    Almost got dispossessed, but an awkward/lucky deflection landed at the feet of another Napoli player.

    Boring play. Boring play. Boring play. Boring play.

    Foul on.

    Dispossessed (in the type of situation where it is typically easy to retain possession of the ball).

    Maradona looks like he dribbled past 2 players (when in reality he dribbled past just one defender), but he definitely created a clear chance out of nothing, after a run that distinctly reminded me of his England wonder goal; he created a clear shot for himself and also had the option of delivering the “easy assist" in the form of a short sideways pass – Maradona took the shot himself; a powerful shot, and the deflection of the shot ended up becoming the assist for the goal (not scored by Maradona). But objectively-speaking, that was absolutely stunningly woeful defending by Torino: there's no escaping that... But given that Torino finished the league in 11th place (when 14th place meant relegation), maybe that’s as good as Torino could defend, perhaps. ~ 4:53 / 5:04

    Boring play.

    I’m not sure if this was a foul by Maradona (since the video does not have audio), but if it wasn’t a foul against Maradona; then this was another instance of mediocre defending by Torino.

    Boring play. Boring play.

    Final Analysis,

    As was the case the first time I watched this video: I think this is the best Serie A performance by Maradona, at least as far as youtube videos are concerned (and youtube has a good deal of his available games), and at least as far as all the videos I've watched. But just like the first time; I don't see a sombrero-happy, roulette-happy, skills-galore "flair player." Maradona clearly and repeatedly doesn't uses a lot of "flair" skills, and is in fact an unequivocally tentative and cautious technician; one who clearly depended on his fitness level much more so than classical technicians and/or classical dribblers. Great player; great performance; but his dribbling ability isn't the "pure technique" narrative that typically defines him; "pure technique" is not as purely reliant on physique as Maradona's dribbling ability demonstrably is.

    For instance, a classical dribbler like Roberto Baggio, could offer a similar or a comparable "dribbling performance" with just 80% or 70% fitness. On the other hand, Maradona at 80% or 70% fitness really lost a great deal of his value as a dribbler. Overall: Maradona was a great dribbler when he enjoyed great fitness (which wasn't very often at club level), but personally, I don't see much of anything consistent to define him as one of the Top 5 or even one of the Top 10 most technical dribblers of all time.

    Ball Retention Score: 9 out of 10.

    Flair Factor Score: 7 out of 10.

    Athletic Factor Score: 10 out of 10.

    Dribbling Output Score: 8 out of 10.

    Passing Output Score: 8 out of 10.

    10 out of 10 performance (relative to world class players).
     
    el-torero repped this.
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I agree that this is one of his two best performances in a Napoli shirt, and I think I have seen virtually all collectible games. Whether this deserves a perfect 10/10, dunno. But I would rate other games a bit higher in all fairness.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Re: dribbling.

    I think/observe that some of his most impressive dribbling came in the (then) rough Spanish league.

    If you look at all Napoli goals (there is a video with ALL Napoli goals) and then the Barcelona goals, I think that it supports the impression.

    Although maybe he did generally play closer to the opposition goal at Barcelona. Because of playing position, team dominance, league tactics. This makes it more likely to produce solo goals.
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    was Maradona not a consistent dribbler from 79-81 for argentinos juniors and boca juniors.
    He was good and talented enough to be regarded better than peak zico(the "white Pele")
    his dribbling was goat tier,his passing was was of a a very high calibre(especially at Barcelona as I believe I already showed you in a comp not so long ago)

    then he put on an all time great DRIBBLING PERFORMANCE at wc 86 with memorable dribbling runs against every single team bar west Germany(Belgium,England,reigning wc winners Italy,North Korea etc)

    even if you was able to prove(and you wouldn't)that Maradona was only a wc dribbler in napoli and not legendary he did more than enough from 16-26 years old to be at the bare minimum a top 5 all time dribbler and at best top 2.
    (Was Baggio in his short lived absolute peak 92-94 any where close to Maradona's dribbling pre 86.. NO WAY)

    One thing I would say about baggio is that he managed to score some of his best solo goals against big teams(napoli,a couple against milan,lazio,udinese etc)
    Now of course the same criticism can be levelled at r9
    why did he only score 1 great solo goal in his entire time at inter and against a completely average/poor team piancenza?

    I think it is clear Baggio at florentina/juventus was DEFINITELY a better dribbler than Maradona at napoli but no where near as good as Diego was up until 26 years old.
    There is a match that I have been looking for an age of what I believe is Maradona's debut international match against Scotland in 79,it is apparently either the best or one of the best dribbling performances of all time.
    I've seen a 2 min fuzzy clip of it showing Maradona successfully dribbling 6 PLAYERS if you can find the full match or at least all of his touches it would be much appreciated.
     
    AD78 repped this.
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #24 carlito86, Sep 2, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
    I think I've found the dribble vs Scotland in 79 I was talking about(good quality aswell)
    he dribbled 6 players (including a roulette) played a nice one- two with his teammate and assisted him for an easy tapin

    Starts at 0:14

    I would probably say the above is a candidate most spectacular dribble assist of all time but....He did it twice

    2:20-2:37
    (Both examples make Maradona's highly rated assist vs Brazil in 90 look like child's play)

    On his best day Maradona has no equal it's as simple as that perhaps a better discussion would be why didn't or couldn't Maradona consistently replicate his goat form at club level.
    To argue about whether or not Maradona was the most talented footballer to step on a pitch is pointless,the answer is obvious..He was.

    Note:
    There was also some crazy assist he made for careca I think in 84/85 where he did a sombrero + dribbled 3 players and past it to the brazilian to score a tapin
    (I can't find it at the moment but when I do I'll be sure to post it)
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think Pelé is the best under 20 player ever, probably followed by Ronaldo Luis. Difficult to tell though because say Rivera was also impressive before he turned 20 as were some others (Charlton, Cruijff too against top class opposition). And it certainly 'helps' to be integrated as teenage poster boy in the reigning world champions in promotional tours. In that respect there is a striking parralel between those players (nevermind the differences).

    https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/the-nativity-where-diego-maradona-comes-from
     

Share This Page